Not By Works

[PennEd]

We know that they did not do that part of God's will (believing in Christ) by the simple fact Christ is turning them away.
But the specific part of God's will that they did not do is obey Christ's words.
The Father's will includes more than just believing in Christ:

"23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:23

"3 God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin." - 1 Thessalonians 4:3

"14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14

That is the important message of the passage. But osas ignores this important part of God's will talked about in the passage, and in so doing gives false comfort to works-less osas adherents that somehow their works-less lives don't matter because they have already fulfilled the whole will of God when they (supposedly) believed in Jesus and that they can't lose their salvation no matter what. They don't know that if all they have is a confession of faith and no works that they don't really believe to salvation. As we see from the passages I posted above believing in Jesus, alone, does not fulfill the whole will of God spoken about in the passage.

"17 faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead (unable to save, see vs.14)." - James 2:17

Wow! You purposefully omitted part of verse 3 in 1 Thessalonians 4!!!

1 Thessalonians 4:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

 

[John146]

We know that they did not do that part of God's will (believing in Christ) by the simple fact Christ is turning them away.
But the specific part of God's will that they did not do is obey Christ's words.
The Father's will includes more than just believing in Christ:

"23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:23

"3 God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin." - 1 Thessalonians 4:3

"14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14

That is the important message of the passage. But osas ignores this important part of God's will talked about in the passage, and in so doing gives false comfort to works-less osas adherents that somehow their works-less lives don't matter because they have already fulfilled the whole will of God when they (supposedly) believed in Jesus and that they can't lose their salvation no matter what. They don't know that if all they have is a confession of faith and no works that they don't really believe to salvation. As we see from the passages I posted above believing in Jesus, alone, does not fulfill the whole will of God spoken about in the passage.

"17 faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead (unable to save, see vs.14)." - James 2:17

I see why you are against osas, you are a works based salvationist. You boast about being good enough to deserve God’s grace. As a matter of fact, your posts are full of boasting.

Have you ever studied the doctrine of the faith of Christ? Probably not since you read from a corrupt version. Too bad.

 

[mailmandan]

We know that they did not do that part of God's will (believing in Christ) by the simple fact Christ is turning them away.

Amen! They did not believe in the Son unto salvation (John 6:40) and Jesus NEVER knew them. (Matthew 7:23)

But the specific part of God's will that they did not do is obey Christ's words.
The Father's will includes more than just believing in Christ:

"23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." - 1 John 3:23

"3 God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin." - 1 Thessalonians 4:3

"14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." - Hebrews 12:14

There is a difference between doing God's will IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED (John 6:40) - *notice that "believes in Him" is "apart from additions or modifications."

AND doing God's will AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED. Believers do not love one another in order to become saved but BECAUSE THEY ARE ALREADY SAVED. (1 John 3:10; 4:7-8) Here is more of God's will for believers AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN SAVED.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

God's will for believers in 1 Thessalonians 4:3-7 is in regards to our ongoing sanctification AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED.

In regards to Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

What you are dangerously close to doing with these passages of scripture is turn salvation through faith into "type 2 works salvation" that goes something like this, "In addition to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, if we don't sufficiently love one another, don't sufficiently abstain from sexual sin and don't live "holy enough" lives, then we won't be saved." Then based on your standards, you can draw your line in the sand wherever you like. Christians are not sinless and perfect and will certainly have their struggles right out of the starting gate. We start out as babes in Christ and progress towards maturity in Christ over time. If we are truly born of God then we will grow in the Lord (some faster than others) and we will produce fruit (some more than others.

That is the important message of the passage.

But osas ignores this important part of God's will talked about in the passage, and in so doing gives false comfort to works-less osas adherents that somehow their works-less lives don't matter because they have already fulfilled the whole will of God when they (supposedly) believed in Jesus and that they can't lose their salvation no matter what. They don't know that if all they have is a confession of faith and no works that they don't really believe to salvation. As we see from the passages I posted above believing in Jesus, alone, does not fulfill the whole will of God spoken about in the passage.

This is a straw man argument and you are confusing God's will for us to become saved with God's will for after we have been saved. You are also flirting with type 2 works salvation. This is the bad fruit of nosas.

"17 faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead (unable to save, see vs.14)." - James 2:17

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! *So James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

 

[CherieR]

Wow! You purposefully omitted part of verse 3 in 1 Thessalonians 4!!!

1 Thessalonians 4:3 New King James Version (NKJV)
3 For this is the will of God, YOUR SANCTIFICATION: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;

The NLT Bible reads it as "God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin."

 

[G2RBeliever]

Psalms 25:4 Shew me THY WAYS,O Lord,teach me THY PATHS.
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are NOT your thoughts,neither are your ways MY ways,saith the Lord.

 

[Judges1318]

This remains the heart of your agenda. Attack osas.

...Attack osas for drawing people away from what really matters. And making them think possessing accurate doctrinal beliefs and constructs is what constitutes the believing that saves.

I'm not just pushing another meaningless doctrinal dispute.
This is about life and death.
Osas gives false comfort to 'Christians' that their works don't matter.
Yes, they don't matter in regard to securing a declaration of righteousness from God.
But they do matter in regard to what the expected and obligatory expression of saving faith is, without which you can not be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[Judges1318]

The NLT Bible reads it as "God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin."

See, you can be all about serving in your church, witnessing to people, tithing, teaching and believing doctrines about osas, etc. but still be among those who Christ will turn away as evildoers because they did not put his words into practice in regard to God's will regarding, for example, holiness in sexual purity.

Obedience is more important than the sacrifice of your service.
But many take false comfort in their association with and service in the church and the careful teaching of their doctrinal beliefs, especially the doctrine of osas, as if that constitutes the believing that saves.

 

[EleventhHour]

In the end it will be 'Christians' who say, 'Lord, Lord', but who do not do what Jesus commands who will be turned away and not enter into the kingdom when Jesus returns. No works-less osas confession of faith will save them on that Day. Real faith has real obedience attached, or else it isn't real faith. And works of ministry are not what constitutes the obedience to his words that Jesus is talking about.

I have read this a few times.

WRONG and very WRONG

No works-less osas confession of faith

You have admitted here that works are part of salvation. You have nullified grace and inserted works as the means of salvation.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Romans 4:4

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Galatians 2:21

 

[mailmandan]

...Attack osas for drawing people away from what really matters. And making them think possessing accurate doctrinal beliefs and constructs is what constitutes the believing that saves.

I'm not just pushing another meaningless doctrinal dispute.
This is about life and death.
Osas gives false comfort to 'Christians' that their works don't matter.
Yes, they don't matter in regard to securing a declaration of righteousness from God.
But they do matter in regard to what the expected and obligatory expression of saving faith is, without which you can not be saved when Jesus comes back.

Jesus saves, not works. I don't find false comfort in believing works don't matter or having a license to sin etc.. As I have mentioned before, all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. Faith in Christ is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

 

[John146]

...Attack osas for drawing people away from what really matters. And making them think possessing accurate doctrinal beliefs and constructs is what constitutes the believing that saves.

I'm not just pushing another meaningless doctrinal dispute.
This is about life and death.
Osas gives false comfort to 'Christians' that their works don't matter.
Yes, they don't matter in regard to securing a declaration of righteousness from God.
But they do matter in regard to what the expected and obligatory expression of saving faith is, without which you can not be saved when Jesus comes back.

More posts without scripture. Don’t you think Scripture is a more important way to describe your beliefs than using your own words? Post scripture and we can discuss.

 

[CherieR]

See, you can be all about serving in your church, witnessing to people, tithing, teaching and believing doctrines about osas, etc. but still be among those who Christ will turn away as evildoers because they did not put his words into practice in regard to God's will regarding, for example, holiness in sexual purity.

Obedience is more important than the sacrifice of your service.
But many take false comfort in their association with and service in the church and the careful teaching of their doctrinal beliefs, especially the doctrine of osas, as if that constitutes the believing that saves.

I was quoting what the NLT bible on
1 Thessalonians 4:3 for the purpose of demonstrating you did not omit something from the verse. You were just quoting from a different bible version.

 

[mailmandan]

Getting back to Hebrews 12:14, those who teach salvation by works prefer the translations which read, "without holiness," no man shall see the Lord. The implication is if you are not sufficiently living a "holy enough" life (which also implies works righteousness) then you won't be saved. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. This is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

 

[G2RBeliever]

1Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said,Hath the Lord as great a delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold,to obey is better than sacrifice,and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment MUST begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey NOT the gospel of God.

 

[EleventhHour]

The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification.

I completely agree.

It seems when people focus so much on sin as one poster is doing presently, they really do not come to a good understanding of Grace.

Two words.... UNDER GRACE (not yelling just emphasis) so powerful and gives us so much understanding if we would just refocus our lens.

One can only have the practical expression of our positional sanctification (Christ within) by leaning into grace of Christ which He offers so freely and abundantly.

 

[Judges1318]

Perfect tense Greek verb....past completed action with a present continuing result....ENGLISH does not have this application within it's grammatical construx...and exactly why MANY erroneously teach that scripture teaches a losable salvation....

First off, the Greek Perfect tense is equivalent to the English Perfect tense:

"Definition of "Perfect"
In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English"

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1jo/1/1/t_conc_1160003


Secondly, you are erroneously adding to the definition of the Perfect tense by suggesting that the definition of the Perfect tense--"a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present*"--means the results of the completed action can not end and will continue into the future forever. That is NOT the definition of the Perfect tense. That has been added to the definition by osas adherents to defend osas. Anyone can check this out for themselves.

 

[CherieR]

See, you can be all about serving in your church, witnessing to people, tithing, teaching and believing doctrines about osas, etc. but still be among those who Christ will turn away as evildoers because they did not put his words into practice in regard to God's will regarding, for example, holiness in sexual purity.

Obedience is more important than the sacrifice of your service.
But many take false comfort in their association with and service in the church and the careful teaching of their doctrinal beliefs, especially the doctrine of osas, as if that constitutes the believing that saves.

I think it is good to put God's word into practice and to do his will in all things. I believe the motivation ought to be because you love God, want to do his will out of a heart of gratitude.

Do you ever feel concerned that you are not putting his words into practice enough or are not demonstrating enough holiness in life? How do you measure how much holiness one must have?

 

[EleventhHour]

First off, the Greek Perfect tense is equivalent to the English Perfect tense:

"Definition of "Perfect"
In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English"

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1jo/1/1/t_conc_1160003


Secondly, you are erroneously adding to the definition of the Perfect tense by suggesting that the definition of the Perfect tense--"a completed action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present*"--means the results of the completed action can not end and will continue into the future forever. That is NOT the definition of the Perfect tense. That has been added to the definition by osas adherents to defend osas. Anyone can check this out for themselves.

So now we enter into the land of conspiracy theory.....smh

In English the verbs need to be combined to make the Perfect Continuous Tense ... so you would be wrong there and it is still not completely the same.
"I have been...."

Well known fact that Perfect tense in Greek is linear, punctiliar with ongoing result.

It is also well known that Koine Greek was the perfect language because of the various verb tenses and what they meant, to express these truths

 

[Judges1318]

Well known fact that Perfect tense in Greek is linear, punctiliar with ongoing result.

We know that.
What Perfect tense doesn't mean is the result of the completed action continues not only up to the present but will always continue forever into the future. That simply is not the definition of the Perfect tense.
Example:

"I have already eaten."

As we can see in this example of a Perfect tense verb the result of the completed action of eating does not have to continue forever into the future just because it continues up to the present. Results continuing into the future beyond the present is not the definition of the Perfect tense. Osas has added that to the definition of the Perfect tense to defend it's belief that the completed action of having believed, or having been saved continue forever into the future. No, the Perfect tense does not mean that.

 

[John146]

We know that.
What Perfect tense doesn't mean is the result of the completed action continues not only up to the present but will always continue forever into the future. That simply is not the definition of the Perfect tense.
Example:

"I have already eaten."

As we can see in this example of a Perfect tense verb the result of the completed action of eating does not have to continue forever into the future just because it continues up to the present. Results continuing into the future beyond the present is not the definition of the Perfect tense. Osas has added that to the definition of the Perfect tense to defend it's belief that the completed action of having believed, or having been saved continue forever into the future. No, the Perfect tense does not mean that.

Thanks for the Scripture.

 

[Judges1318]

The NLT Bible reads it as "God’s will is for you to be holy, so stay away from all sexual sin."

How do you measure how much holiness one must have?

Since you honestly and rightfully acknowledge the Bible's exhortation to be Holy, tell me how you think the believer is to measure how much holiness one must have.
Then I will tell you how I think the believer is to measure that.