Why do "bible believing" Christian use "reality" to justify what they believe?

[Aerials1978]

I hate to admit it, but I use this simple basic scriptural truth to judge a person, whether they are of God or not.
The bible says the children of the devil CANNOT receive the truth of God's word, and this is not the meat of God's word, where the baby Christians can't handle it, but it is basic milk.
Even baby Christians should be able to digest this.
WOF is what Paul talk ALL soon to be new converts.
I honestly believe they think or believe they are saved, going to heaven, when they are not.
Just like the Jews of Jesus' time on earth.
They acted holy, most of the time, but their true colors started to show when true holiness came on the scene.

For too many years I was one of those. God in His mercy had to bring about suffering in order for me to wake up. If I tell that to a non-believer or someone who professes to be a Christian but hasn’t gone past the infancy stage, they would claim either I’m crazy or God is unjust. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I don't see it, would you elaborate for me please?

It's a huge study and I am not going to be able to flesh it out for you in a forum.

 

[garee]

It use to be, years ago, most would use scripture as their authority, to argue their point.
Now, most use the real world as their authority and to trump the truths of the bible.
I hear many say they believe the bible as the truth and even that it is the inerrant word of God, written through holy men of old who were moved by the Holy Ghost, only for them to completely ignore what is written and state what others are doing or what happened to others or themselves, as though, by stating such, proves said statement is the evidence of what is the real truth and true authority to follow.
The bible seems to have become irrelevant in today's church and to so-called believers.
I ask many, "what is written?", only for it to go ignored or for them to tell me what happened to someone or what so and so did, or what is happening in the "real world".
What in God's green earth, does that have to do with what truth is?
They don't live in a pipe dream world..., no..., reality dictates what is fact, (considered by them to be truth,) and what is fiction.
If the interpretation doesn't line up with "reality", then it's fiction, and therefore we need to change said interpretation to line up with our FAILED experiences.
Reality therefore, dictates what they should believe and not believe, or what doctrines to believe and which ones to call "doctrines of the devil".
And now, even doctrines used by those who produce, so-called, "bad fruit", are considered bad or evil doctrines, and lies of the devil, while that which truly is bad and evil, such as sickness and poverty, are considered blessings of and from God.
What happened to scripture being the foundation of doctrines?
Words of faith, is a doctrine straight out of the scriptures, yet it is called a lie of the devil, and those whose teach such, such as yours truly, are called heretics, cultist, liars, evil, and corrupt teacher of doctrines of devils, and the like.
So what is your doctrinal authority in and how do you justify it, if it is not in the word of God?
And how can we tell which interpretations are of the truth, both of and from God, and which ones are not, when reality, or the real world, is involved?

Good point.

Its the old new age thingamajig raising up its ugly head. . "let experience be your guide as those who seek after lying signs and wonder gospel" .Which is no gospel at all .

When Jesus was faced with what is called out of the body experience's(Mathew 4) The father put his words on the mouth of the Son of man, Jesus and he prophesied three time as it is written .With the word it representing our unseen source of Christian faith. The faith of God. The Faithful and True Creator .

The idea of experience as a validator of the unseen truth comes from the bottomless pit. it clearly speak of that kind of mind set that apposes it, as it is written Giving it over to human experience. Human ideas as oral traditions that do make the word of God to no effect.

Some people enjoy acting as if they are humble and love to worship angels. They always talk about the visions they have seen. Don’t listen to them when they say you are wrong because you don’t do these things. It is so foolish for them to feel such pride, because it is all based on their own human ideas. Collosians 2:18

 

[know1]

It's a huge study and I am not going to be able to flesh it out for you in a forum.

No problem.

 

[know1]

For too many years I was one of those. God in His mercy had to bring about suffering in order for me to wake up. If I tell that to a non-believer or someone who professes to be a Christian but hasn’t gone past the infancy stage, they would claim either I’m crazy or God is unjust. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I've been called worse here on CC.
I don't mind.
It just seemed like there was so few of me on this forum, or those who at least believed similar to what I saw in scripture.
It truly amazes me to see how many "intellectuals" are not able to see the simplest things in scripture, written in such easy to understand language that even a child could see and understand it.

 

[know1]

Good point.

Its the old new age thingamajig raising up its ugly head. . "let experience be your guide as those who seek after lying signs and wonder gospel" .Which is no gospel at all .

When Jesus was faced with what is called out of the body experience's(Mathew 4) The father put his words on the mouth of the Son of man, Jesus and he prophesied three time as it is written .With the word it representing our unseen source of Christian faith. The faith of God. The Faithful and True Creator .

The idea of experience as a validator of the unseen truth comes from the bottomless pit. it clearly speak of that kind of mind set that apposes it, as it is written Giving it over to human experience. Human ideas as oral traditions that do make the word of God to no effect.

Some people enjoy acting as if they are humble and love to worship angels. They always talk about the visions they have seen. Don’t listen to them when they say you are wrong because you don’t do these things. It is so foolish for them to feel such pride, because it is all based on their own human ideas. Collosians 2:18

Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Adstar]

No, word of faith is word of faith, and prosperity is prosperity.
Yes, you can use words of faith to obtain prosperity, but you can also use it to curse yourself, family, and others, as well.
To put it another way, you HAD TO use WOF to get saved when you received Christ in your heart.
Without WOF, there is no salvation for many.
Jesus said, "Take no thought SAYING..."
Romans 10:8-10, explains what word of faith is and how it works for one's salvation, but the same principal can be applied to just about anything.

Well i am a Christian who does not believe in the WOF doctrine.. My prayers are a request to the LORD they are not some magic spell that allows me to get what ever i want just because i declare i have it..

 

[Guojing]

No, word of faith is word of faith, and prosperity is prosperity.
Yes, you can use words of faith to obtain prosperity, but you can also use it to curse yourself, family, and others, as well.
To put it another way, you HAD TO use WOF to get saved when you received Christ in your heart.
Without WOF, there is no salvation for many.
Jesus said, "Take no thought SAYING..."
Romans 10:8-10, explains what word of faith is and how it works for one's salvation, but the same principal can be applied to just about anything.

Well said, people have no problems understanding this when it comes to their salvation. But we tend to just stop there and not take advantage of our spoken words when it comes to health and finances.

 

[yankeebo]

God is in control, whether it is good or bad times.

 

[yankeebo]

God is in control, whether it is good or bad times.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I wonder how that word of faith and prosperity line up with John being exiled to a prison/ slave labour island of Patmos, or Paul being in prison and asking for someone to bring him his coat, and the faithful Christians of the middle east, Asia, and Africa who are being murdered and enslaved for their faith. I guess while they are faithful enough to die horrific deaths for their faith they ain't faithful enough drive nice cars and live in western style suburban neighborhoods.
Paul told Timothy to take wine for his often infirmities not release your faith for healing, then Paul prayed 3 times about his thorn in the flesh. I guess they didn't have enough faith.
This better life now is a product of the teaching of the revivalists movements, decision theology, and emotion strumming revivalistic, evangelical out reach church. Then we wonder why so many so called Christians have so little understanding of the Bible. When church is geared toward the unchurched rather than the training up of the saints for the work of the ministry.

 

[JamOn]

I don’t even know what to say about the Bible and Creation and this, it is boggling to say the least. It’s not fake news it’s reality.

 

[Godsgirl83]

 

[Hungry]

No, word of faith is word of faith, and prosperity is prosperity.
Yes, you can use words of faith to obtain prosperity, but you can also use it to curse yourself, family, and others, as well.
To put it another way, you HAD TO use WOF to get saved when you received Christ in your heart.
Without WOF, there is no salvation for many.
Jesus said, "Take no thought SAYING..."
Romans 10:8-10, explains what word of faith is and how it works for one's salvation, but the same principal can be applied to just about anything.

I’m abundantly certain you will disagree with this because you write with such confidence in your own understanding. Not everything you say is wrong because much of it is scripture and that’s why you give your borrowed words so much value. That’s why you aren’t blind but you don’t see clearly either. You are guilty of cognitive bias. You condemning others for something you are doing also, just from a different direction. Context is everything. Name it and claim it is not only a Christian doctrine. That is how God made us. It is a reality doctrine. Self help gurus like Tony Robins are well aware that belief, precedes fruition and that you need to change your mind before you can change your life. Prosperity preaching is an effective tool because it helps us put our faith in an all powerful God to bless us, rather than faith in a repeated failure like ourselves. It’s the confidence (faith) in a abundance that ushers in abundance. However, this is the snare. When we believe to receive material wealth, we increase our kingdom. When we believe to receive spiritual wealth and gifts to be a better servant, we increase His Kingdom.

The whole message of the Bible is that He is Lord. In order to serve Him, we need restoration. Sin, and more importantly the guilt of our sin separates us spiritually. In order to remove the obstacle (guilt) we need forgiveness. This was achieved through sacrifice in the OT. It wasn’t a dead animal that absolves sin. It is the repentant heart (desire for God), and faith that this action sanctified them, released their guilt. Since Christ is the perfect Sacrifice, it is this belief that allows us to believe we CAN be forgiven. This lack of guilt is what opens our ears to hear His voice and our eyes to see. The restoration is necessary for the process to be grafted into the Vine. We become a digit on Hand of Christ, to do His will, not ours. To use blessings from the Lord to expand your kingdom would be like going to work for an employer and using his office supplies and contacts to run your side jobs while on the clock.

Regardless, I know the next thing I say will sound heretical but the Bible contains the words of God, but is not the Word (Logos) of God. A word is a logos but not all “logos” are words. Some may understand, but those who use scripture verses often out of context, to validate their positions won’t. Its like taking random lines out of a script and rewriting the movie as you think it should be instead of understanding the film as a complete work.

I hope my words find fertile soil in your heart. Be blessed.

 

[garee]

Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Yes, it was common for Christ to teach the disciples how to walk by faith or hear God not seen.

Thomas was not walking by faith and was apposing the other disciples . Christ unseen gave him the power to the will of God and therefore believe God not seen . The Holy Spirit used Thomas to represent faithlessness in mankind .No faith, as in no God in their hearts as fools the warning on this occasion.(don't be faithless)

Obviously Thomas was not trusting God not seen and is why Jesus called him faithless and then commanded Thomas to believe. Thomas then after moved to believe responded as the confession of hearing the faith hearing God . Thomas answered the commandment: "be not faithless, but believing" and confessed; . . . My Lord and my God.

Its not a section of scripture that loosens the 2 witnesses of God as the binding authority of God , The law and the prophets as it is written (sola scriptura.) Remember in John 6 we are informed it is God who works in us, with us in order so that we can believe or exercise that labor of love.

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:25-29

No blessing from the thing seen the temporal, corrupted .

It would seem from my experience to be the hope of Catholics in so much that the binding power of God could be loosened from earth and given to the oral traditions of men as a law of the fathers (men).

Jesus did not say to Thomas when he felt the flesh of Jesus: "well done my faithful servant". It would be like putting a approval on what Peter performed in the last chapter of John. Can't fabricate lies and hope it could be a eternal unseen blessing in disguise..

I would offer. Jesus said in effect, if every time the Spirit of Christ down through the ages had to stop the madness of false prophets that bring the oral tradition of men. We would need a bigger earth to store that which could of been written . The context of that portion with Thomas. a word that means twin is used possibly to represent doubting Thomas. Before that lesson of how to walk by faith he was being tossed back and forth. Between the things of God not seen the eternal and those of men seen the temporal .

I am sure that object lesson helped Thomas to learn how to walk more circumspectly mixing faith in what is seen and heard .I would think it would be how can we hear what the Spirit says to every believer.

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.John 21:23-25

One warning I think would be enough.

 

[Dino246]

Yes, it was common for Christ to teach the disciples how to walk by faith or hear God not seen.

Thomas was not walking by faith and was apposing the other disciples . Christ unseen gave him the power to the will of God and therefore believe God not seen . The Holy Spirit used Thomas to represent faithlessness in mankind .No faith, as in no God in their hearts as fools the warning on this occasion.(don't be faithless)

Obviously Thomas was not trusting God not seen and is why Jesus called him faithless and then commanded Thomas to believe. Thomas then after moved to believe responded as the confession of hearing the faith hearing God . Thomas answered the commandment: "be not faithless, but believing" and confessed; . . . My Lord and my God.

Its not a section of scripture that loosens the 2 witnesses of God as the binding authority of God , The law and the prophets as it is written (sola scriptura.) Remember in John 6 we are informed it is God who works in us, with us in order so that we can believe or exercise that labor of love.

The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:25-29

No blessing from the thing seen the temporal, corrupted .

It would seem from my experience to be the hope of Catholics in so much that the binding power of God could be loosened from earth and given to the oral traditions of men as a law of the fathers (men).

Jesus did not say to Thomas when he felt the flesh of Jesus: "well done my faithful servant". It would be like putting a approval on what Peter performed in the last chapter of John. Can't fabricate lies and hope it could be a eternal unseen blessing in disguise..

I would offer. Jesus said in effect, if every time the Spirit of Christ down through the ages had to stop the madness of false prophets that bring the oral tradition of men. We would need a bigger earth to store that which could of been written . The context of that portion with Thomas. a word that means twin is used possibly to represent doubting Thomas. Before that lesson of how to walk by faith he was being tossed back and forth. Between the things of God not seen the eternal and those of men seen the temporal .

I am sure that object lesson helped Thomas to learn how to walk more circumspectly mixing faith in what is seen and heard .I would think it would be how can we hear what the Spirit says to every believer.

Your interpretation of this passage is wacky. I have explained it to you several times. What the Catholics believe is completely irrelevant. Thomas did not "appose" anyone, because "appose" is not a word. Nor did he "oppose" the other disciples; he stated his own position clearly and concisely. Jesus, whom Thomas saw with his eyes and felt with his hand, demonstrated that it was right to believe in His bodily resurrection, and therefore Thomas believed. There was nothing "unseen" about it. Thomas was blessed because he saw and believed; others are blessed because they don't see and yet believe.

One warning I think would be enough.

One correction should be enough. You've had many, but you persist in your errors.

 

[CS1]

Well i am a Christian who does not believe in the WOF doctrine.. My prayers are a request to the LORD they are not some magic spell that allows me to get what ever i want just because i declare i have it..

lol hey, WOF allows one to get whatever they want? I have faith in the Word of God and I ask and receive everything according to HIS will . No Magic spell I just ask my Lord

 

[garee]

Your interpretation of this passage is wacky. I have explained it to you several times. What the Catholics believe is completely irrelevant. Thomas did not "appose" anyone, because "appose" is not a word. Nor did he "oppose" the other disciples; he stated his own position clearly and concisely. Jesus, whom Thomas saw with his eyes and felt with his hand, demonstrated that it was right to believe in His bodily resurrection, and therefore Thomas believed. There was nothing "unseen" about it. Thomas was blessed because he saw and believed; others are blessed because they don't see and yet believe.


One correction should be enough. You've had many, but you persist in your errors.

Thanks.

It would seem one correction was to many and a thousand will not be enough for you. lol

Can't turn the source of faith upside down. .Jesus commanded, remembering that faith comes from hearing not imagining.

Thomas was given the faith to believe He had none or what is called not of oneself. .And as a result he reasoned it that worked in him was the unseen Lord that also worked in Jesus . The word term lord reserved for the unseen Father. The same kind of treasure as the power God that works in our earthen bodies of death worked in Thomas .

Thomas was blessed "because" the Spirit of Christ worked in Thomas to both will and do the good pleasure of God not seen.

The false hope he had in making the flesh profits for something opposing the other disciples , vanished. He was given the mutual faith of Christ to believe God like all men do, as it is written

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

Thomas was blessed because he was freely given the mutual faith of Chrsit Others are not blessed because they were not given the faith that comes from hearing God

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

 

[know1]

Well i am a Christian who does not believe in the WOF doctrine..

Really, then why are you speaking words of faith?
You clearly don't know what WOF is.
Part of what WOF is, is speaking what you believe is, as though it is, without actually seeing it.
Based on your declaration, you believe you are born again, most likely, without any physical evidence.
So, the very thing you say you don't believe, you unwittingly just used.
In your eye, you are just stating a fact, but it is not, until you decree it, as you just did.
I say that because faith requires a corresponding act to what you believe in your heart.
Did you thank Jesus for saving you, after you asked Him to come into your heart?
If you did, then you just spoke what you believed to be, as though it was.
Nothing happened until you thanked God for saving you.
You see, it's not the asking that got you saved, but the thanking and saying, "I am born again", or "thank you Father or Jesus for saving me".
That is when you were saved.
Not, I repeat, not when you asked Jesus to come in your heart, but after you declare what you believe God did, THEN, at that very moment, were you saved.
It is written.

Mat_13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given,

You had to believe you already had it, BEFORE it was actually given.

My prayers are a request to the LORD they are not some magic spell that allows me to get what ever i want just because i declare i have it..

Apparently you not only believe in magic spells, but that they are more likely to be fulfilled, than the promises of God.
And after you make your request know to God, what do you say or do after that?
Have you ever thanked Him for giving it to you, BEFORE you saw it?
Or did you say, "according to your will, be it done unto me." Which isn't scriptural.
Take a look at Mk 11:23- 24.

Mar 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Notice in verse 24, you are asking for something, but in verse 23, you are SPEAKING OR DECLARING, what you want.
Jesus was explaining how He killed the tree that bore no fruit.
And also notice, after He said of those who "have the faith of God", that "whosoever" shall say,...
I'm a whosoever and you are a whosoever too.
It's all there in red, black, and white.
I'm not twisting or perverting what is written, I'm stating and agreeing with what is written, AS IT IS WRITTEN, and you should do the same.

 

[oyster67]

Why do "bible believing" Christian use "reality" to justify what they believe?...

Because God is real and the Atonement is real and I am real and spiritual things are real. The eternal is actually more real than the temporary.