Are you a Trinitarian, and if so, can you defend the doctrine?
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Maybe an explanation of why you think He is a 'distinct person'.
Jesus' explanation tends to suggest otherwise:
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
1. The advocate was already there, abiding with the disciples and they knew Him, but still;
2. Jesus had to go for the advocate to come in them
3. If Jesus doesn't go, the advocate won't come yet the advocate was already there with them
4. Jesus promises to come to them shortly.
It is simple. These are not 2 persons, just one who was there with the disciples and they knew Him but had to go and come in them (in a different form).
Jesus' explanation tends to suggest otherwise:
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
1. The advocate was already there, abiding with the disciples and they knew Him, but still;
2. Jesus had to go for the advocate to come in them
3. If Jesus doesn't go, the advocate won't come yet the advocate was already there with them
4. Jesus promises to come to them shortly.
It is simple. These are not 2 persons, just one who was there with the disciples and they knew Him but had to go and come in them (in a different form).
We went through this discussion last year, you and I, I remember. I really don't think this passage is a basis to say that Genesis 1:2 refers to the heart of Adam. That's unjustified, IMO
Even within solipsism, though, why wouldn't you accept that Christ, appearing in your heart, is literally God made manifest in your hearts eye? He is alive, unlike anything else you perceive within that paradigm; the one giving you life even as you behold Him, the unseen made visible.
And if God were to make Himself known in your minds eye creation, why should He appear in a thin projection like all creation? Wouldn't you expect His appearing to be different in substance, inexplicably richer? This is the One who peels back the sky like a scroll we are talking about, who transcends everything perceived as reality.
Even within solipsism, though, why wouldn't you accept that Christ, appearing in your heart, is literally God made manifest in your hearts eye? He is alive, unlike anything else you perceive within that paradigm; the one giving you life even as you behold Him, the unseen made visible.
And if God were to make Himself known in your minds eye creation, why should He appear in a thin projection like all creation? Wouldn't you expect His appearing to be different in substance, inexplicably richer? This is the One who peels back the sky like a scroll we are talking about, who transcends everything perceived as reality.
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Because the bible says through Adam sin entered the world. The world here means everything created that is not God including you and i.
When i asked you, when do you think you were created, the answer i was expecting is when Adam was created because in 6 days God finished all His creation work. You and i being part of this world means that everything created is in Adam. His disobedience affects everything.
Christ being the second Adam, through Him and by Him, everything is created a new. Now, you don't expect to see the dust disappear and reappear afresh to know that the heavens and the earth have been recreated. It is just not visible to our fallen eyes but we should be understanding this, and it is actually not the first time that the universe has been recreated:
2 Pet 3: 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
Peter here says the world before (heavens and earth- and its dust) were destroyed (passed away) yet for us and the people then the dust did not go away. Why? because it is a new world recreated in hearts of the 8 that survived, for this reason, Peter referred to it as present world but he actually means the people. Now, these new world or rather the ungodly people, are reserved for fire yet the new heavens and new earth will be preserved through the godly.
So it is not actually the dust (visible) but the hearts of men means the universe. So yes, God creates through the hearts of men, first through Adam and all in Adam, and second through Christ and all in Christ.
When i asked you, when do you think you were created, the answer i was expecting is when Adam was created because in 6 days God finished all His creation work. You and i being part of this world means that everything created is in Adam. His disobedience affects everything.
Christ being the second Adam, through Him and by Him, everything is created a new. Now, you don't expect to see the dust disappear and reappear afresh to know that the heavens and the earth have been recreated. It is just not visible to our fallen eyes but we should be understanding this, and it is actually not the first time that the universe has been recreated:
2 Pet 3: 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
Peter here says the world before (heavens and earth- and its dust) were destroyed (passed away) yet for us and the people then the dust did not go away. Why? because it is a new world recreated in hearts of the 8 that survived, for this reason, Peter referred to it as present world but he actually means the people. Now, these new world or rather the ungodly people, are reserved for fire yet the new heavens and new earth will be preserved through the godly.
So it is not actually the dust (visible) but the hearts of men means the universe. So yes, God creates through the hearts of men, first through Adam and all in Adam, and second through Christ and all in Christ.
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Jesus never sinned and when He, took our sin raw as a man to became our sin then suffered rejection and hell for us and not just the physical pain, He tasted death and hell for us as the innocent Lamb of God .... Hung on a tree suspended between heaven and earth .. I'd say He was on His own , the whole earth become dark from about the 6th hr to the 9th, the light of the world had went out , but there's good news .. And after having that vision of hell .. Knowing Jesus knew means more than who could ever know in this life .. I can't comprehend it all and don't think I could take it in this life though I have caught a glimpse during fasting and prayer .. And I'll not leave Him hanging .. He is my Lord and my God and all I can do is fall short
Jesus says He will ask the Father and Jesus says He will send the Holy Ghost to us , same one God ..
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
God is omnipresent and the evilest of people are in that presence whether they realize it or not and they don't is the only reason any could not fear God .. As I mentioned , Hell will be eternal separation out from and away from God's presence, a state of being much worse than any heat or shackles .. I had a vision long ago , more horror and hopelessness than there are words to describe it ..
Being ''born again'' of the Holy Spirit is a personal thing that comes from excepting God as our Savior .. Adam was not God, Jesus was both man and God .. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus says He will ask the Father and Jesus says He will send the Holy Ghost to us , same one God ..
John 14:16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
John 16: 7But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocatea will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
God is omnipresent and the evilest of people are in that presence whether they realize it or not and they don't is the only reason any could not fear God .. As I mentioned , Hell will be eternal separation out from and away from God's presence, a state of being much worse than any heat or shackles .. I had a vision long ago , more horror and hopelessness than there are words to describe it ..
Being ''born again'' of the Holy Spirit is a personal thing that comes from excepting God as our Savior .. Adam was not God, Jesus was both man and God .. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Ok I have a question for you trinitarians. In John 14:16, this part here "And I will ask the Father" How do you understand this?
Now for the moment, let us use the irrational concept of the trinity.
Now is this how you trinitarians understands this in John 14.16:
I = Jesus,
Jesus = God
The Father = God
God = The Supreme Being
"And I(God) will ask the Father (God)" ?
Are you trinitarians trying to say to people that God needs to ask God?
Try to use reason. When you break it down and look at it logically, one can see this trinity concept makes no sense at all.
Now for the moment, let us use the irrational concept of the trinity.
Now is this how you trinitarians understands this in John 14.16:
I = Jesus,
Jesus = God
The Father = God
God = The Supreme Being
"And I(God) will ask the Father (God)" ?
Are you trinitarians trying to say to people that God needs to ask God?
Try to use reason. When you break it down and look at it logically, one can see this trinity concept makes no sense at all.
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Did Jesus bring honor to His Father and mother too ? What thing did Jesus do or not do that disqualifies Him from being God .. Jesus come to save us and to fulfill all scripture but He also come to teach us and show us how to act both towards both God and man as a man .. Perhaps when Jesus returns you will see God the Son more to your liking ..
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My point on John 14/15/16 if you are careful to read again, Jesus is claiming to be the advocate because He says the advocate was already there with the disciples and they knew Him yet He (Jesus) had to go for the advocate to come.And then He says He is not going forever leaving them comfortless, He is coming to them shortly to be with them and comfort them (the work of the advocate).
It is poetic but don't get lost in the wordings, look at the context.
It is poetic but don't get lost in the wordings, look at the context.
okay, a couple of examples here of speaking as an human:
when an human says something to their own soul, who is speaking?
we have distinct entities within ourselves, which together comprise one being. there is a physical you and a non-physical you, which sometimes agee and sometimes do not: they are separate, distinct, yet they are one. even our bodies have both a brain and an heart - both of which are composed of neural material, both of which originate thought and exercise will, but are one body. aren't the eternal qualities of God clearly seen by what has been made?
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
(Luke 12:19)
Why are you cast down, O my soul?
And why are you disquieted within me?
Hope in God;
For I shall yet praise Him,
The help of my countenance and my God
(Psalm 42:11)
when an human says something to their own soul, who is speaking?
we have distinct entities within ourselves, which together comprise one being. there is a physical you and a non-physical you, which sometimes agee and sometimes do not: they are separate, distinct, yet they are one. even our bodies have both a brain and an heart - both of which are composed of neural material, both of which originate thought and exercise will, but are one body. aren't the eternal qualities of God clearly seen by what has been made?
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I was seeking to know God. God lead me to Jesus, Jesus showed me the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lead me back to Jesus and Jesus lead me back to the Father. When we read in Genesis 1:26: "Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness". The US is a reference to Father, Son & Holy Spirit. We are currently in the Holy Spirit dispensation. A time of Grace, the Church age, Time of the Gentiles. There are many names for the time we live in. Soon the Church age will come to an end as the final great harvest has already begun. Then we will enter into the Kingdom age or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. This will be a time of the Manifest Sons (daughters) of God. Joint Heirs with Christ. We will rule and reign with Him. "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" (2Timothy2:12) Jesus began His ministry with new wine at a wedding in 26 AD. So I am expecting something to happen in 2026 that will be symbolic to represent new wine and a wedding. Pentecost 2029 I believe is the 2,000 years anniversary or birthday of the Church.
All that amounts to one person/one being. Nobody sees you @posthuman and goes, "here comes two persons", same thing with Jesus even though the Father and the spirit 'lived' in Him.
The point here is that mankind, made in the image of God, has a certain triune nature. We have three distinct, identifiable 'parts' that individually stand on their own yet in concert make one unique being.
So it is not as though a triune Creator is an unnatural, totally alien notion.
So it is not as though a triune Creator is an unnatural, totally alien notion.
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