Was Abraham's covenant with God conditional or unconditional?

[FlyingDove]

Genesis 22 seems to also indicate a conditional covenant, the favorite one used by James chapter 2

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

James used this to argue that, like Abraham, a man is justified by his works.

Given all this scriptural account, without any church doctrine bias as I have stated, it is easier to conclude that the covenant God cut with Abraham was conditional or unconditional?

1st:
I'd put the highlight on 16 (A) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,

2ndly:
Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The two writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Paul's, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Paul's speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time James refers to

In Paul's reference in Gen 15:6 It's Abrahams FAITH that obtains Him Righteousness.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience seen here, is a result of his Faith, exercised 30-40 years earlier.

Faith is evidence of salvation. Works are evidence of faith.

Genesis 15:6
Abram """believed""" the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

Romans 4:22
This is why """Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness"""

Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham """believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness"""

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, """Abraham believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness""" and he was called God's friend.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Believing """that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead"""

Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's "faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(NOTE: Only faith, NO CIRCUMCISION needed)

Abraham was counted righteous by faith before he entered into the blood covenant of circumcision. He is the father of all who believe.

God's unilateral, unconditional covenant promise to Abraham now extended to the Church, via Christ depends on faith & faith alone.

Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please him.

 

[bud62]

1st:
I'd put the highlight on 16 (A) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,

2ndly:
Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The two writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Paul's, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Paul's speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time James refers to

In Paul's reference in Gen 15:6 It's Abrahams FAITH that obtains Him Righteousness.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience seen here, is a result of his Faith, exercised 30-40 years earlier.

Faith is evidence of salvation. Works are evidence of faith.

Genesis 15:6
Abram """believed""" the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

Romans 4:22
This is why """Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness"""

Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham """believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness"""

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, """Abraham believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness""" and he was called God's friend.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Believing """that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead"""

Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's "faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(NOTE: Only faith, NO CIRCUMCISION needed)

Abraham was counted righteous by faith before he entered into the blood covenant of circumcision. He is the father of all who believe.

God's unilateral, unconditional covenant promise to Abraham now extended to the Church, via Christ depends on faith & faith alone.

Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please him.

Dose GOD have a repect of persons ??????????

 

[FlyingDove]

Dose GOD have a repect of persons ??????????

No, God isn't influenced by a persons social status, prestige, race etc.

Having said that, I'll repost the last verse in my reply to the OP - IN FULL.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: """for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him""".

I hope this helps...

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1st:
I'd put the highlight on 16 (A) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,

2ndly:
Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The two writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Paul's, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Paul's speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time James refers to

In Paul's reference in Gen 15:6 It's Abrahams FAITH that obtains Him Righteousness.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience seen here, is a result of his Faith, exercised 30-40 years earlier.

Faith is evidence of salvation. Works are evidence of faith.

Genesis 15:6
Abram """believed""" the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

Romans 4:22
This is why """Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness"""

Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham """believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness"""

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, """Abraham believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness""" and he was called God's friend.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Believing """that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead"""

Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's "faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(NOTE: Only faith, NO CIRCUMCISION needed)

Abraham was counted righteous by faith before he entered into the blood covenant of circumcision. He is the father of all who believe.

God's unilateral, unconditional covenant promise to Abraham now extended to the Church, via Christ depends on faith & faith alone.

Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please him.

Your statement; "Faith is evidence of salvation, works are evidence of faith" and I am in agreement with your statement.

My concern is about three of the quoted verses that is after the end of all of your posts.

Eph 2:8, Rom 10:9, and Rom 10:10. Unless you understand that salvation, according to Greek, means "a deliverance", and also, understand that the deliverance we receive in these three verses are deliverances we receive here in this world, by our works, and are not referencing eternal deliverance. If you do not understand them in this reference, they would contradict your statement that "Faith is evidence of {eternal} salvation," and "works are evidence of faith.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

No, God isn't influenced by a persons social status, prestige, race etc.

Having said that, I'll repost the last verse in my reply to the OP - IN FULL.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: """for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him""".

I hope this helps...

There is the natural man's faith,1 Cor 2:14, and then, there is the spiritual man's faith. Eph 2. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit and is accessible only by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is given in regeneration.

 

[Guojing]

1st:
I'd put the highlight on 16 (A) And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,

2ndly:
Abrahams Faith via Paul, Abrahams Obedience via James

The two writers reference different time frames & statements in Abraham's life:

Paul's, recorded event is from Gen 15:6 "believed"

James, recorded event is from Gen 22:18 "obeyed"

Now, Contrast the word "believed" in Gen. 15:6 and the word "obeyed" in Gen. 22:18

Gen:15; Paul's speaks of a time 30-40 years before the time James refers to

In Paul's reference in Gen 15:6 It's Abrahams FAITH that obtains Him Righteousness.

In James reference in Gen 22:18 (30-40 YEARS LATER) Abrahams obedience seen here, is a result of his Faith, exercised 30-40 years earlier.

Faith is evidence of salvation. Works are evidence of faith.

Genesis 15:6
Abram """believed""" the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

Romans 4:22
This is why """Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness"""

Galatians 3:6 So also Abraham """believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness"""

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, """Abraham believed God""", """and it was credited to him as righteousness""" and he was called God's friend.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Believing """that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead"""

Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's "faith was credited to him as righteousness"
(NOTE: Only faith, NO CIRCUMCISION needed)

Abraham was counted righteous by faith before he entered into the blood covenant of circumcision. He is the father of all who believe.

God's unilateral, unconditional covenant promise to Abraham now extended to the Church, via Christ depends on faith & faith alone.

Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please him.

Seems Abraham was quoted at least twice in Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

This is a clear reference to the conditional covenant I have stated in Genesis 12, and a good reference to how grace and faith worked in both OT and now.

By grace, God selected Abraham to focus his blessings on. But by faith, he have to be willing to leave his original home and head to a new land, not knowing whether it would be good for him.

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Believing """that God was able to raise him up, even from the death

This will be a clear reference to Genesis 22, and what James was trying to say in his chapter 2. Abraham have to believe God and show his faith by offering Issac, believing that God would raise him from the dead.

So it was all by grace thru faith even in the OT days.

 

[FlyingDove]

Your statement; "Faith is evidence of salvation, works are evidence of faith" and I am in agreement with your statement.

My concern is about three of the quoted verses that is after the end of all of your posts.

Eph 2:8, Rom 10:9, and Rom 10:10. Unless you understand that salvation, according to Greek, means "a deliverance", and also, understand that the deliverance we receive in these three verses are deliverances we receive here in this world, by our works, and are not referencing eternal deliverance. If you do not understand them in this reference, they would contradict your statement that "Faith is evidence of {eternal} salvation," and "works are evidence of faith.

The verses in my signature are simply favorites of mine.

Find here my reply to your implication that salvation is but temporary

1st: Jesus atoning sacrifice/sin payment & our sanctification were done ONCE for ALL SINS. The Holy Spirit is Christ's eternal salvation seal/promise.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

2 Tim 1:14 Refer's to the Holy Spirit as a Guard & Deposit.

2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14 & 2 Cor 1:22. Refer to the Holy Spirit as "the earnest" = Pledge or Promise.

Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30 Refer to the Holy Spirit as a Seal.

2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's deposit & guards us until the day of redemption)

2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
(NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. Earnest translated from the Greek word: arrabon. Also means a pledge)

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a pledge & a SEAL until the soon coming day of our redemption)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(NOTE: You heard about Christ's finished sin redemptive payment & resurrection. When you believed/trusted, Christ sealed/baptized you with His Holy Spirit).

Eph1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit bywhich Christ baptizes/seals & indwells us. Is the earnest = a down paymnt, a pledge, a promise, a guarantee)

Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
(NOTE: Believers are SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. It's a pledge, pomise, guard & guarentee that Christ will come for us)

1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(NOTE: John writes: that you may know ""PRESENT TENSE"" that you have eternal life)

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(NOTE: God doesn't go back on His Word or Promises)

Synopsis:
Holy Spirit prophesized by Jesus, poured out when the day of Pentecost was fully come. Referred to as a Seal, a Deposit , the Earnest, a Down Payment, reread Ehp 4:30 3 scripture above.)

The Law of sin & death are always at work. However, they Have Been superseded by the Law of Grace

Salvation is spoken of as a finished transaction, as seen by the fact that it is always being described with "past tense" verbs. (Also see Jn 1:12, Eph. 1:13)

When a person trusts Christ their salvation is final and complete. Salvation is not a process, it is an event. That is why Christ described salvation as a birth because it is an event. You can't be UNBORN!

 

[Guojing]

Abraham was one of the elect of God, and was justified eternally by Christ's death on the cross. Abraham was justified here on earth, by his works. All of God's elect people are justified in the same manner. The natural man, apart from the elect, are not justified eternally, or here in time. The elect person can only justify himself, here in time, after he has been regenerated. All of these actions by God are unconditional.

So from the reformed belief, they consider that God already went ahead of time and knew that Abraham would believe and do what will be required.

Then God went back to the original time and called Abraham to do what was required. Thus Abraham was "elected" in that sense. While for his nephew Lot, God similarly already knew that he will not do what will be required.

Did I interpret your belief correctly?

 

[Guojing]

Read again please. If we have faith, we will obey God. This is not our works it amounts to being God's work using each willing believer as a vessel.

Abraham was not as "blessed as us", he had to obey God by doing works. Genesis 12 indicated he have to move house and go to a strange new land, as Hebrews 11:8 confirmed.

In Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to be circumcised, otherwise he will be cut off from the covenant.

In Genesis 22, God called Abraham to sacrifice his son.

All these 3 actions are considered works. But now, the only work we are required to do by God, to be justified, is to rest in Jesus's finished work on the cross.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If you see it from the context of the OP, it is as if we only have Genesis 15, but NOT Genesis 12, Genesis 17 and Genesis 22. We seem to be more blessed than Abraham because of Christ work on the cross.

 

[FlyingDove]

So it was all by grace thru faith even in the OT days.

Yes:
Abraham names the place: Jehovahjireh

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

(NOTE: Jehovahjireh means = The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ is = The SACRIFICE/Sins Atonement!)

Pre incarnation one had to believe God would provide a sacrifice, like the ram in this story.

Jews (gentiles weren't included here) while Christ was ministering in the flesh, had to believe Jesus was their long promised Messiah.

And post resurrection everyone must believe in Jesus death (sins required wage paid) burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (the Fathers receipt, payment received & accepted).

Alway's by grace thru faith.

 

[Guojing]

Yes:
Abraham names the place: Jehovahjireh

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

(NOTE: Jehovahjireh means = The Lord Will Provide. Ok, PROVIDE what? A SACRIFICE! The promised seed/Christ is = The SACRIFICE/Sins Atonement!)

Pre incarnation one had to believe God would provide a sacrifice, like the ram in this story.

Jews (gentiles weren't included here) while Christ was ministering in the flesh, had to believe Jesus was their long promised Messiah.

And post resurrection everyone must believe in Jesus death (sins required wage paid) burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (the Fathers receipt, payment received & accepted).

Alway's by grace thru faith.

But would you agree that faith comes from our response to his grace, and God required different responses from us to show faith during different times, as what the various examples from Hebrews 11 indicated?

 

[FlyingDove]

Seems Abraham was quoted at least twice in Hebrews 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

This is a clear reference to the conditional covenant I have stated in Genesis 12, and a good reference to how grace and faith worked in both OT and now.

If it was conditional, Abram quickly broke God's condition.

Gen 12:
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
(NOTE: Leave your fathers house & your kindred)


5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came
(NOTE: Abram brings Lot/kindred)

 

[garee]

Faith cannot be alone faith without works is dead.

We are saved by the work of Christ's faith or called a labor of his love that works in us to both will and do the good pleasure of God. The same mutual faith that worked in Jesus's earthen body of death .The same spirit of faith that worked in Abraham . Not of his own self .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us

The two works .The conditional which failed according to the flesh. All fall short as seeds fleshly many. And the unconditional for us conditioned on Christ works for the elect the seed spiritual unseen Christ

Galatians 3:15-17 King James Version (KJV) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

 

[Guojing]

If it was conditional, Abram quickly broke God's condition.

Gen 12:
1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
(NOTE: Leave your fathers house & your kindred)


5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came
(NOTE: Abram brings Lot/kindred)

Interesting, so when God said kindred, Abraham is only suppose to bring his wife, but no one else? Any other reference to the hebrew term for kindred?

 

[FlyingDove]

But would you agree that faith comes from our response to his grace, and God required different responses from us to show faith during different times, as what the various examples from Hebrews 11 indicated?

No...
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(NOTE: Abram believed & a sovereign God judicially declares Abram righteous. This is before Issac is even born)

Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
(NOTE: Abram is SLEEPING)

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
(NOTE: God unilaterally cuts this covenant Himself. He's saying if I break my word, let me (like these animals He walked thru) be torn to pieces. Jesus sin atoning sacrifice is unilaterally cut as well. Like Abraam all we have to do is believe.

 

[MattforJesus]

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

It is always conditional.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

And a Spirit led life will not sin so there is no excuse but some have a form of godliness but deny the Spirit leading them and enjoy iniquity and believe they are alright and have salvation.

 

[Guojing]

No...
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
(NOTE: Abram believed & a sovereign God judicially declares Abram righteous. This is before Issac is even born)

Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
(NOTE: Abram is SLEEPING)

13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
(NOTE: God unilaterally cuts this covenant Himself. He's saying if I break my word, let me (like these animals He walked thru) be torn to pieces. Jesus sin atoning sacrifice is unilaterally cut as well. Like Abraam all we have to do is believe.

So again my question is, how would you understand genesis 17?

 

[JaumeJ]

Abraham was not as "blessed as us", he had to obey God by doing works. Genesis 12 indicated he have to move house and go to a strange new land, as Hebrews 11:8 confirmed.

In Genesis 17, God commanded Abraham to be circumcised, otherwise he will be cut off from the covenant.

In Genesis 22, God called Abraham to sacrifice his son.

All these 3 actions are considered works. But now, the only work we are required to do by God, to be justified, is to rest in Jesus's finished work on the cross.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

If you see it from the context of the OP, it is as if we only have Genesis 15, but NOT Genesis 12, Genesis 17 and Genesis 22. We seem to be more blessed than Abraham because of Christ work on the cross.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 

[Guojing]

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

care to explain how the scripture you quote link to my point?

 

[Moses_Young]

So again my question is, how would you understand genesis 17?

Genesis 17 at least has to be conditional. The people either agreed to cut the excess skin off their males, or risked the entire male being "cut off". When Zipporah saved Moses life by circumcision, this is surely an example that this covenant was conditional.

When Joshua circumcised the whole nation of Israel so that there was a hill made of the tips, I doubt he would have been able to convince all the men to submit if there was an option to opt out of the painful bit, but still enjoy the priveleges (i.e. an unconditional covenant).