Not By Works

[John146]

James is writing to the Jewish believers who were scattered abroad , those who believed in Jesus , and his letter is also shown to us as how we should live our lives in Christ...

Many Jewish believers from all the tribes were scattered...

Again, the term twelve tribes never means a called out group from the nation of Israel. It always means, throughout Scripture, the nation of Israel as a whole. You just allow the simple text to determine what is said and not man's commentaries on God's word. You would never come to this conclusion through personal study and comparing Scripture to Scripture.

 

[KJV1611]

Brother...we may agree.
To whom does it show true faith to?

Well it should show it to anyone who reads James 2... but it doesn't work out that way with works salvation people. They make the verse out to be that Abraham, the person, as being justified by faith and HIS WORKS... Nothing could be farther from the truth, Abraham the person, was justified by faith and NOTHING more, his works have nothing to do with his justification.

 

[OneOfHis]

Well it should show it to anyone who reads James 2... but it doesn't work out that way with works salvation people. They make the verse out to be that Abraham, the person, as being justified by faith and HIS WORKS... Nothing could be farther from the truth, Abraham the person, was justified by faith and NOTHING more, his works have nothing to do with his justification.

Amen. In james the context is to SHOW Gods love in us through our works before man. We can't prove we are His (even goats or tares can "work") but if we follow Him He provides what we need to be blameless witnesses to be the most effective we can be.

We can have a clean heart and be justified (opposed to guilty) before man and ourselves as His children.

 

[EleventhHour]

It was semantics to start. I still stand by what I said back then. You just didn't like the word, "genuine faith".

Lol so I reworded the exact same point and we agreed.

I see your point though. There are also terms I avoid. I dislike denominations or "osas" and terms like that.

I love OSAS... my favourite acronym of all time!

Every time time you type "genuine" I will think in my head "biblical" faith and this will help keep peace in @dcontroversal land (meaning this thread) and we can focus our energy on the workers for salvation.

 

[OneOfHis]

I believe maybe our disagreement was semantics...

 

[KJV1611]

Umm no

James speaking to a faith that justifies before men.

Meaning that inward faith is given an outward reality to people, so they can witness/see faith (which is not visible) made visible through action.

In that sense we are justified (the righteousness is seen) before men because there is congruence between our faith and our actions.

You're not disagreeing with me, that's exactly what I said. Abraham's faith was justified before men when he offered up Isaac. His faith was manifested through his works.

 

[John146]

Are you serious??

How about the entire Bible... that should be plenty of instruction.

I see nothing in that letter that would signify it is for a certain eschatological time period.

Can you give me a verse?

James 5 for instance tells us the context is right before the Lord returns in His second coming as Judge.

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. The early and latter rain is concerning the nation of Israel, not the Church.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. True statement if one is in the tribulation.
9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. True statement again if one is in the tribulation. The judge is standing ready to return. In the church Age, the Lord is seated at the right hand of the Father.

 

[John146]

@John146 be forewarned I am going to have to give you lots of disagrees pretty soon if you keep this going.

That usually means I'm on the right track.

 

[EleventhHour]

You're not disagreeing with me, that's exactly what I said. Abraham's faith was justified before men when he offered up Isaac. His faith was manifested through his works.

My apologizes, I am glad we agree.

This is very important especially with regards to James.

 

[John146]

Were there not Jews that converted?
Are they still not ethnically Jew but spiritually in Christ?

If James wants to separate out a certain audience of believers ..being Jews then of course he is going to use the term "twelve tribes" to signify a certain group of believers who needed specialized instruction because of their background and knowledge.

Again very simple to understand.. no hoop jumping required!!

Nope. Whenever Christians out of the twelve tribes are referred to, they are clearly designated apart from the twelve tribes. Saved Jews are referred to as "the remnant," Romans 9:27;11:5; the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16; believing Jews, Romans 1:16, etc...

The term twelve tribes always is as reference to the whole nation of Israel. Genesis 49:28, Exodus 24:4, 28:21; Ezekiel 47:13. And the NT is no exception. Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30; Acts 26:7; Revelation 21:12.

 

[KJV1611]

My apologizes, I am glad we agree.

This is very important especially with regards to James.

Me too, because people twist those verses to prop up the false doctrine of works salvation.

 

[John146]

Amen! And that's what James 2 is all about. Abraham's faith was JUSTIFIED as being the "right" kind of faith when he offered up Isaac.

My faith was justified the moment I trusted Jesus Christ. See the difference?

 

[KJV1611]

My faith was justified the moment I trusted Jesus Christ. See the difference?

Justified to who?

 

[John146]

I'm not implying that at all. Nothing about that verse involves Abraham being justified to God. God has nothing to do with that verse at all, the verse is about the justification of Abraham's faith period. It shows how to recognize true faith in God.

It has everything to do with God.

Genesis 22
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

 

[John146]

Umm no

James speaking to a faith that justifies before men.

Meaning that inward faith is given an outward reality to people, so they can witness/see faith (which is not visible) made visible through action.

In that sense we are justified (the righteousness is seen) before men because there is congruence between our faith and our actions.

Do you really think that good works justify your salvation in the eyes of others? I know a lot of lost people who do greater works for others than most Christians.

 

[EleventhHour]

Nope. Whenever Christians out of the twelve tribes are referred to, they are clearly designated apart from the twelve tribes. Saved Jews are referred to as "the remnant," Romans 9:27;11:5; the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16; believing Jews, Romans 1:16, etc...

The term twelve tribes always is as reference to the whole nation of Israel. Genesis 49:28, Exodus 24:4, 28:21; Ezekiel 47:13. And the NT is no exception. Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30; Acts 26:7; Revelation 21:12.

He not using the words in context of his argument he using these words to address his audience.

They know who they were, they were dispersed and they were Jewish, that is the key reason for this use of this address. This is no way negates they were Jewish believers.

You are really stretching things to fit some preconceived ideas I think.

 

[John146]

Justified to who?

I was justified before God the moment I believed the gospel. The faith of Christ justifies the believer.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[John146]

You are really stretching things to fit some preconceived ideas I think.

I am merely using Scripture to define Scripture. You are using man made commentaries to define Scripture. Please show me other places where the term "twelve tribes" is used as a reference to Jewish Christians. Thanks.

 

[KJV1611]

It has everything to do with God.

Genesis 22
11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Do you think God didn't know what choice Abraham would make? I don't know why Genesis 22 is written that way, but God is omniscient, he knew EXACTLY which way Abraham would go on this.

 

[EleventhHour]

Do you really think that good works justify your salvation in the eyes of others? I know a lot of lost people who do greater works for others than most Christians.

Absolutely.

No person can see "faith" unless one speaks to it and puts it to work outwardly.