Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.
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“Seventy [e]weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
[f]To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint [g]the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
Messiah the prince entered immediately following the 69th weak as prophesied. Just as the prophet said he would..
Zechariah 9:9
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.
a week later he was cut off. (the cross) just as Gabriel said he would be, the 70th week had not even started yet
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
This occured close to 40 years after the end of the 69th week, hence by defenition, we at the least have a 40 year gap
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolation are determined.
This states after the destruction of the city and temple. it will remain desolte for an indeterminate amount of time, A time which is determined by God himself at which time there will be wars (think waers and rumors of wars in matt 24)
27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Then, Following this undetermined amount of time in which jerusalem shal lie desolate, the 70th week will be introduced by the future prince of rome who will confirm a covenant for one week (7 years) but in the middle of the week. Commit an abomiation of the temple After which Jesus said in matt 24 will be great tribulation such as never been seen before or after. Also called the time of Gods wrathm where his wrath is POURED ON THE DESOLATE
so we see an undetermined Gap after the 40 year gap. AND YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE THERE IS NONE??
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
[f]To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint [g]the Most Holy.
25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The [h]street shall be built again, and the [i]wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself;
Messiah the prince entered immediately following the 69th weak as prophesied. Just as the prophet said he would..
Zechariah 9:9
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.
a week later he was cut off. (the cross) just as Gabriel said he would be, the 70th week had not even started yet
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
This occured close to 40 years after the end of the 69th week, hence by defenition, we at the least have a 40 year gap
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolation are determined.
This states after the destruction of the city and temple. it will remain desolte for an indeterminate amount of time, A time which is determined by God himself at which time there will be wars (think waers and rumors of wars in matt 24)
27 Then he shall confirm a [k]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Then, Following this undetermined amount of time in which jerusalem shal lie desolate, the 70th week will be introduced by the future prince of rome who will confirm a covenant for one week (7 years) but in the middle of the week. Commit an abomiation of the temple After which Jesus said in matt 24 will be great tribulation such as never been seen before or after. Also called the time of Gods wrathm where his wrath is POURED ON THE DESOLATE
so we see an undetermined Gap after the 40 year gap. AND YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE THERE IS NONE??
E
I read carefully
In 70 ad, there was no ARMIES surrounding jerusalem. Titus was one armie. not multiple. he was one commander. the people who destroyed the temple was the army which was already there, they came from the fort antonia and destroyed the city.
it might help if you study history
also. ww1 and ww2 made what titus did to jerusalem look like a picnic, because it was NOT the greatest tribulation the world had ever seen. nor was all life threatened demanding Jesus return for the sake of the elect (he who endures to the end will be saved)
and prophesy, the ARMIEs (plural) from many nations, will surround Jerusalem in the future.
In 70 ad, there was no ARMIES surrounding jerusalem. Titus was one armie. not multiple. he was one commander. the people who destroyed the temple was the army which was already there, they came from the fort antonia and destroyed the city.
it might help if you study history
also. ww1 and ww2 made what titus did to jerusalem look like a picnic, because it was NOT the greatest tribulation the world had ever seen. nor was all life threatened demanding Jesus return for the sake of the elect (he who endures to the end will be saved)
and prophesy, the ARMIEs (plural) from many nations, will surround Jerusalem in the future.
Where in Scripture does it clearly state that the prophetic time clock stopped, and it starts to tick again at the alleged Rapture of the Church?
This is where dispensationalists fall down...they criticize others for "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" yet they believe things that are not in the Bible, including this assertion that there is a long gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel, and the pretribulation rapture.
By the way, Rob McKenzie covers these sorts of inconsistencies in his book, Identifying the Seed. He reveals how dispensationalism imposes rules upon others that they don't observe themselves. Once I saw that the cult I belonged to practiced similar behavior, the spell was broken
This is where dispensationalists fall down...they criticize others for "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" yet they believe things that are not in the Bible, including this assertion that there is a long gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel, and the pretribulation rapture.
By the way, Rob McKenzie covers these sorts of inconsistencies in his book, Identifying the Seed. He reveals how dispensationalism imposes rules upon others that they don't observe themselves. Once I saw that the cult I belonged to practiced similar behavior, the spell was broken
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Where in Scripture does it clearly state that the prophetic time clock stopped, and it starts to tick again at the alleged Rapture of the Church?
This is where dispensationalists fall down...they criticize others for "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" yet they believe things that are not in the Bible, including this assertion that there is a long gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel, and the pretribulation rapture.
By the way, Rob McKenzie covers these sorts of inconsistencies in his book, Identifying the Seed. He reveals how dispensationalism imposes rules upon others that they don't observe themselves. Once I saw that the cult I belonged to practiced similar behavior, the spell was broken
This is where dispensationalists fall down...they criticize others for "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" yet they believe things that are not in the Bible, including this assertion that there is a long gap between the 69th and 70th week in Daniel, and the pretribulation rapture.
By the way, Rob McKenzie covers these sorts of inconsistencies in his book, Identifying the Seed. He reveals how dispensationalism imposes rules upon others that they don't observe themselves. Once I saw that the cult I belonged to practiced similar behavior, the spell was broken
you respond to a post where someone laid out his argument if that passage.
And instead of taking the passage
And showing in the passage where the guy was wrong you make a generalized statement which is really an attack (this is where they fall down) and you expect them or the world to just bow down to your reasoning
That’s why I can not consider anything you say
If you want to discuss dan 9 let's go
if you want to ignore it and just
Make a silly remark. Then do not expect
Me
To give you the time of day
LOL, your lecturing me about history?? I've read Josephus, Tacticus, Cassius, most of the early Church writers, both Books of the Maccabees, and my minor was in History. What have you read? Jerusalem was originally surrounded by Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. I don't think Jesus was referring to him or Titus because when Titus got there, it would have been too late to flee. Thus I believe it was when Vespasian arrived in 67/68 AD.
Nero appointed Vespasian to put down the rebellion, who was dispatched to the region at once with the Fifth Legion and the Tenth Legion. He was later joined at Ptolemais by Titus with the Fifteenth Legion. With a strength of 60,000 professional soldiers, the Romans prepared to sweep across Galilee and march on Jerusalem. The Idumeans also came from the south by the thousands. In A.D. 70, thousands of Roman soldiers and auxiliaries from across the Euphrates later converged on the city of Jerusalem under Titus. These auxiliaries where made up from many nations of the Roman Empire. To say there was only one army that defeated Jerusalem is plain ignorance.
As for the scope of the Great Tribulation, as I pointed out conclusively, it was regional, limited to Israel. NOTHING says it was world-wide. 93% of all Jews were killed. No country has endured a death rate that high, not even in WWI or WWII. Perhaps you can explain to me how to escape your world-wide GT by fleeing to the mountains of Judea? Should we all move there to get ready for it? You go first and I'll catch up with you.
Nero appointed Vespasian to put down the rebellion, who was dispatched to the region at once with the Fifth Legion and the Tenth Legion. He was later joined at Ptolemais by Titus with the Fifteenth Legion. With a strength of 60,000 professional soldiers, the Romans prepared to sweep across Galilee and march on Jerusalem. The Idumeans also came from the south by the thousands. In A.D. 70, thousands of Roman soldiers and auxiliaries from across the Euphrates later converged on the city of Jerusalem under Titus. These auxiliaries where made up from many nations of the Roman Empire. To say there was only one army that defeated Jerusalem is plain ignorance.
As for the scope of the Great Tribulation, as I pointed out conclusively, it was regional, limited to Israel. NOTHING says it was world-wide. 93% of all Jews were killed. No country has endured a death rate that high, not even in WWI or WWII. Perhaps you can explain to me how to escape your world-wide GT by fleeing to the mountains of Judea? Should we all move there to get ready for it? You go first and I'll catch up with you.
E
LOL, your lecturing me about history?? I've read Josephus, Tacticus, Cassius, most of the early Church writers, both Books of the Maccabees, and my minor was in History. What have you read? Jerusalem was originally surrounded by Cestius Gallus in 66 AD. I don't think Jesus was referring to him or Titus because when Titus got there, it would have been too late to flee. Thus I believe it was when Vespasian arrived in 67/68 AD.
Nero appointed Vespasian to put down the rebellion, who was dispatched to the region at once with the Fifth Legion and the Tenth Legion. He was later joined at Ptolemais by Titus with the Fifteenth Legion. With a strength of 60,000 professional soldiers, the Romans prepared to sweep across Galilee and march on Jerusalem. The Idumeans also came from the south by the thousands. In A.D. 70, thousands of Roman soldiers and auxiliaries from across the Euphrates later converged on the city of Jerusalem under Titus. These auxiliaries where made up from many nations of the Roman Empire. To say there was only one army that defeated Jerusalem is plain ignorance.
As for the scope of the Great Tribulation, as I pointed out conclusively, it was regional, limited to Israel. NOTHING says it was world-wide. 93% of all Jews were killed. No country has endured a death rate that high, not even in WWI or WWII. Perhaps you can explain to me how to escape your world-wide GT by fleeing to the mountains of Judea? Should we all move there to get ready for it? You go first and I'll catch up with you.
Nero appointed Vespasian to put down the rebellion, who was dispatched to the region at once with the Fifth Legion and the Tenth Legion. He was later joined at Ptolemais by Titus with the Fifteenth Legion. With a strength of 60,000 professional soldiers, the Romans prepared to sweep across Galilee and march on Jerusalem. The Idumeans also came from the south by the thousands. In A.D. 70, thousands of Roman soldiers and auxiliaries from across the Euphrates later converged on the city of Jerusalem under Titus. These auxiliaries where made up from many nations of the Roman Empire. To say there was only one army that defeated Jerusalem is plain ignorance.
As for the scope of the Great Tribulation, as I pointed out conclusively, it was regional, limited to Israel. NOTHING says it was world-wide. 93% of all Jews were killed. No country has endured a death rate that high, not even in WWI or WWII. Perhaps you can explain to me how to escape your world-wide GT by fleeing to the mountains of Judea? Should we all move there to get ready for it? You go first and I'll catch up with you.
93 percent of all jews were killed?
lol.. Most jews did not even live in jerusalem. SO if you think 93 percent were killed. well thats quite a feet.
Again, Jesus said if he did not return no flesh would survive.
You have yet to fail to explain when this occurred in 70 ad.
I already started, I am waiting for you to catch up.
you got a response to dan 9? How about an answer when all the things I showed have occured?
I hear alot of fluff. but have yet to witness any meat.
You said:
That's my point exactly. Messiah began His ministry IMMEDIATELY AFTER the conclusion of the 69th week (not weak). Thus Christ used up half of the 70th week before He was cut off. What happened to the remaining half week? NOTHING. The final 3.5 years ended after Christ died.
If you notice in the list given for things to be accomplished during the 70 weeks, the destruction of Jerusalem isn't listed. The people of Israel were given 490 years to accomplish a list of things. But it only took 486.5 years to do. If you were a contractor and I gave you a year to build me a house and you finished in 9 months, do we have a problem? I think not. You are getting caught up with all the other information in the chapter like events that happen after the 70 weeks, which were not included in the 70 weeks, like the destruction of Jerusalem by Prince Titus in 70 AD.
Here's where you dispies fall into quick sand. You forget at the beginning of the chapter, Daniel is pleading for forgiveness so that they can return to their land and rebuild the city. The chapter ends with that city being destroyed and left desolate. You skip over that future rebuilding and desolation of 70 AD and jump to yet another future 3rd temple and future 3rd desolation. Daniel was interested in the 2nd city and 2nd temple and you've got him ignoring them and focusing on a 3rd city and 3rd temple. It would be one thing if the 2nd city and 2nd temple were destroyed by a sand storm or something. But it was destroyed in exactly the way predicted, consumed by fire and left desolate (deserted).
That's my point exactly. Messiah began His ministry IMMEDIATELY AFTER the conclusion of the 69th week (not weak). Thus Christ used up half of the 70th week before He was cut off. What happened to the remaining half week? NOTHING. The final 3.5 years ended after Christ died.
If you notice in the list given for things to be accomplished during the 70 weeks, the destruction of Jerusalem isn't listed. The people of Israel were given 490 years to accomplish a list of things. But it only took 486.5 years to do. If you were a contractor and I gave you a year to build me a house and you finished in 9 months, do we have a problem? I think not. You are getting caught up with all the other information in the chapter like events that happen after the 70 weeks, which were not included in the 70 weeks, like the destruction of Jerusalem by Prince Titus in 70 AD.
Here's where you dispies fall into quick sand. You forget at the beginning of the chapter, Daniel is pleading for forgiveness so that they can return to their land and rebuild the city. The chapter ends with that city being destroyed and left desolate. You skip over that future rebuilding and desolation of 70 AD and jump to yet another future 3rd temple and future 3rd desolation. Daniel was interested in the 2nd city and 2nd temple and you've got him ignoring them and focusing on a 3rd city and 3rd temple. It would be one thing if the 2nd city and 2nd temple were destroyed by a sand storm or something. But it was destroyed in exactly the way predicted, consumed by fire and left desolate (deserted).
Again, your complete and utter ignorance of history is your undoing. What does Jesus say in Mt 13? "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them.." If my view is correct, the tares are the wicked, disbelieving Rome-loving Jews of 70 AD. Do you notice that they are gathered and burned? My view is Jerusalem was the place they were gathered, their dead bodies were then burned in the fires set by Titus. Spiritually they were, or will be, thrown into the Lake of Fire also. So, they were double burned.
Jesus uses "wheat harvest" as symbolism here. The Jewish revolt started during the wheat harvest of 66 AD. According to Josephus, Jews from all over the Roman Empire returned to Jerusalem to celebrate certain feasts, like Passover and Pentecost. Josephus said that Jerusalem's population swelled to 1.2 million 5X it's normal size. But don't take his word for it. All you need to do is read Acts 2:
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”
This happened every year!!! Until 71 AD when they were all dead.
As for the flesh, He was speaking about those in Jerusalem. Out of 1.2 million, only 97K were left alive. If He didn't cut those days short, none of them would have made it.
Jesus uses "wheat harvest" as symbolism here. The Jewish revolt started during the wheat harvest of 66 AD. According to Josephus, Jews from all over the Roman Empire returned to Jerusalem to celebrate certain feasts, like Passover and Pentecost. Josephus said that Jerusalem's population swelled to 1.2 million 5X it's normal size. But don't take his word for it. All you need to do is read Acts 2:
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”
This happened every year!!! Until 71 AD when they were all dead.
As for the flesh, He was speaking about those in Jerusalem. Out of 1.2 million, only 97K were left alive. If He didn't cut those days short, none of them would have made it.
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You missed it totally.
Jesus entered on good friday, He died a week (7 literal days) later
The 7 years had not even started yet, you can not equate 7 literal days with 3.5 years.
I showed the OT prophesy of HOW messiah will be introduced to jerusalem. Riding a donkey.
Did you read right over that part?
Messiah came at the end of the 69th week. All those things OCCURED BEFORE the 70th week.
Your twisting the words of Gabriel.
lol.. Yes. David prayed for God to remember the city and the temple ( your the first non dispi to acknowledge this) but you forgot the people called by his name
Gabriel said at the end of the 70 weeks. Isreal will fully repent, the cvity and temple will be fully restored. Prophecy will be completed
Those things did not happen in the 1st century ad.
Titus did not place an abomination of desolation that the world could see in the holy of holys. Not even everyone in jerusalem could see that abomination.
You fall because you are trying to fit things whivh are not there and have not happened.
and yes it was destroyed, AND AFTER IT WAS DESTROYED< Gabriel said it would lay desolate for a specific period of time. THEN the 70th week will start.
Come on man, Give me something if you want to sway me,,
Jesus entered on good friday, He died a week (7 literal days) later
The 7 years had not even started yet, you can not equate 7 literal days with 3.5 years.
I showed the OT prophesy of HOW messiah will be introduced to jerusalem. Riding a donkey.
Did you read right over that part?
Messiah came at the end of the 69th week. All those things OCCURED BEFORE the 70th week.
Your twisting the words of Gabriel.
lol.. Yes. David prayed for God to remember the city and the temple ( your the first non dispi to acknowledge this) but you forgot the people called by his name
Gabriel said at the end of the 70 weeks. Isreal will fully repent, the cvity and temple will be fully restored. Prophecy will be completed
Those things did not happen in the 1st century ad.
Titus did not place an abomination of desolation that the world could see in the holy of holys. Not even everyone in jerusalem could see that abomination.
You fall because you are trying to fit things whivh are not there and have not happened.
and yes it was destroyed, AND AFTER IT WAS DESTROYED< Gabriel said it would lay desolate for a specific period of time. THEN the 70th week will start.
Come on man, Give me something if you want to sway me,,
E
says the man who thinks 70 ad was more of a tibulation than ww1 and ww2.
i suggest you calm yourself down.. I do not take lightly to people who attack others.
Until you see your view from my mind, You are just as utterly ignorant and are undone.
So if you want to discuss the word. lets discuss
You want to act like an arrogant proud person who thinks he knows it all. (typical of people who believe the way you do as if you think you have all knowledge) I will end this conversation
Jesus said immediately after tribulation he would return, because if he did not. No flesh would survive.
You keep demanding I look at your words, which I have and responded, Yet you have refused multiple times no to respond to this point
lets not play hypocricy,,
i suggest you calm yourself down.. I do not take lightly to people who attack others.
Until you see your view from my mind, You are just as utterly ignorant and are undone.
So if you want to discuss the word. lets discuss
You want to act like an arrogant proud person who thinks he knows it all. (typical of people who believe the way you do as if you think you have all knowledge) I will end this conversation
Jesus said immediately after tribulation he would return, because if he did not. No flesh would survive.
You keep demanding I look at your words, which I have and responded, Yet you have refused multiple times no to respond to this point
lets not play hypocricy,,
"it might help if you study history"
You started the insults with your above comment. But okay, let's be civil. We are both Christians who are passionate about our positions. Let me ask you, have you ever been a preterist? I used to be a futurist. But about 6 years ago I decided to settle the issue of all these different views of eschatology and really got into the Word and studied all views with an open mind. Preterism was the only view that harmonized every passage. The historical record is pretty clear and convincing for just about every topic which is pretty remarkable given how little literature remains from the period. So, I have seen from your point of view, but you likely have never seen things from mine (unless you used to be a preterist).
As you recall from the beginning of Mat 24, they were discussing the temple and grand surrounding buildings. Jesus told them that they would all be thrown down with not one stone left upon another. They asked when that would happen. The rest of the chapter was about the signs of the times. His return was only a presence (parousia) return, not a bodily return. No human being could witness the almighty Christ, fully glorified, coming in all His glory. It isn't physically possible for us to see Him as mortals.
Parousia means Presence. It does NOT mean coming or returning. The opposite of Parousia is Absence, not leaving. Christ was here. When He left, He was absent from us. This is why He sent the Helper.
As I stated, since the GT was about the siege of Jerusalem and the unspeakable horrors over a million people endured, and the horrific ways most of them died, starved to death, disease, sword, being cooked in an oven and eaten, etc., no nation has suffered like that. If it had gone on much longer, no flesh would have survived. Flesh of Jerusalem, not flesh of the whole planet. Why are you making this about the planet when it's clear from the 3 accounts that Judea and Jerusalem were in focus?
You started the insults with your above comment. But okay, let's be civil. We are both Christians who are passionate about our positions. Let me ask you, have you ever been a preterist? I used to be a futurist. But about 6 years ago I decided to settle the issue of all these different views of eschatology and really got into the Word and studied all views with an open mind. Preterism was the only view that harmonized every passage. The historical record is pretty clear and convincing for just about every topic which is pretty remarkable given how little literature remains from the period. So, I have seen from your point of view, but you likely have never seen things from mine (unless you used to be a preterist).
As you recall from the beginning of Mat 24, they were discussing the temple and grand surrounding buildings. Jesus told them that they would all be thrown down with not one stone left upon another. They asked when that would happen. The rest of the chapter was about the signs of the times. His return was only a presence (parousia) return, not a bodily return. No human being could witness the almighty Christ, fully glorified, coming in all His glory. It isn't physically possible for us to see Him as mortals.
Parousia means Presence. It does NOT mean coming or returning. The opposite of Parousia is Absence, not leaving. Christ was here. When He left, He was absent from us. This is why He sent the Helper.
As I stated, since the GT was about the siege of Jerusalem and the unspeakable horrors over a million people endured, and the horrific ways most of them died, starved to death, disease, sword, being cooked in an oven and eaten, etc., no nation has suffered like that. If it had gone on much longer, no flesh would have survived. Flesh of Jerusalem, not flesh of the whole planet. Why are you making this about the planet when it's clear from the 3 accounts that Judea and Jerusalem were in focus?
Here is another place where we differ. I believe there is a distinction in the following two phrases used (regarding Jesus):
[quoting past post of mine]
1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Do you see any distinction between the phrases:
--"having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and
--"coming [present participle] in flesh"
[end quoting that post]
"parousia" is also used of "the man of sin" in 2Th2:9a … translated "[whose] coming" in the kjv, but I often add the further definitions "presence, advent, arrival"... see BibleHub quote, below:
[quoting]
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).
[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]
[end quoting]
[quoting past post of mine]
1 John 4:2-3a -
" 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming [present participle] in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
Do you see any distinction between the phrases:
--"having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and
--"coming [present participle] in flesh"
[end quoting that post]
"parousia" is also used of "the man of sin" in 2Th2:9a … translated "[whose] coming" in the kjv, but I often add the further definitions "presence, advent, arrival"... see BibleHub quote, below:
[quoting]
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).
[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]
[end quoting]
You are conflating separate passages. Dan 9 passage says:
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Messiah the Prince came to Jerusalem long before He rode in on a donkey. He first went when He was 12 but that wasn't the time of the 69 weeks. Satan brought Him to Jerusalem at the very start of His ministry. Besides, nothing in the Dan 9 passage states that Messiah was in Jerusalem. It just says "until Messiah the Prince." All we can tell from this passage is that the 62 weeks are over before Messiah comes and that He is cut off clearly also after the 62 weeks.
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
Messiah the Prince came to Jerusalem long before He rode in on a donkey. He first went when He was 12 but that wasn't the time of the 69 weeks. Satan brought Him to Jerusalem at the very start of His ministry. Besides, nothing in the Dan 9 passage states that Messiah was in Jerusalem. It just says "until Messiah the Prince." All we can tell from this passage is that the 62 weeks are over before Messiah comes and that He is cut off clearly also after the 62 weeks.
Well, we can tell from the passage (vv.24-27) is that the prophecy says, "Seventy Weeks ARE DETERMINED UPON thy [Daniel's] people, AND UPON thy [Daniel's] holy city..."
[note again: what Jesus DID on Palm Sunday (when He DID the Zech9:9 thing) and (same day) SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (BOTH of these re: the city / Jerusalem ); Zech9:9 saying "Thy King COMETH UNTO THEE..."]
[note again: what Jesus DID on Palm Sunday (when He DID the Zech9:9 thing) and (same day) SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (BOTH of these re: the city / Jerusalem
); Zech9:9 saying "Thy King COMETH UNTO THEE..."]Love your humor, BTW.
Not sure what point you are trying to make with the two examples. Both dealt with His original visit "in the flesh." He came once as a man, He went to heaven and was glorified (Dan 7). He isn't or wasn't coming back as a man again. In fact Rev 18:1 tells us He comes as major brightness.
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.
In Mat 28 we see this: And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
There were so many signs of Christ's presence back then it's ridiculous. I actually think His presence is recorded 3 times in Revelation. The first time is in Rev 8:
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour...And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
The presence of God or Christ are often accompanied by noises, thunderings, lightening, and earthquakes. We see this several times. The first time, I believe Josephus records here.
and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.
Not sure what point you are trying to make with the two examples. Both dealt with His original visit "in the flesh." He came once as a man, He went to heaven and was glorified (Dan 7). He isn't or wasn't coming back as a man again. In fact Rev 18:1 tells us He comes as major brightness.
After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.
In Mat 28 we see this: And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."
There were so many signs of Christ's presence back then it's ridiculous. I actually think His presence is recorded 3 times in Revelation. The first time is in Rev 8:
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour...And there were noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake.
The presence of God or Christ are often accompanied by noises, thunderings, lightening, and earthquakes. We see this several times. The first time, I believe Josephus records here.
and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.
Well, we can tell from the passage (vv.24-27) is that the prophecy says, "Seventy Weeks ARE DETERMINED UPON thy [Daniel's] people, AND UPON thy [Daniel's] holy city..."
[note again: what Jesus DID on Palm Sunday (when He DID the Zech9:9 thing) and (same day) SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (BOTH of these re: the city / Jerusalem ); Zech9:9 saying "Thy King COMETH UNTO THEE..."]
[note again: what Jesus DID on Palm Sunday (when He DID the Zech9:9 thing) and (same day) SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing (BOTH of these re: the city / Jerusalem
); Zech9:9 saying "Thy King COMETH UNTO THEE..."]
I disagree, and I'm using these two passages to give evidence of this.
The first verse (we agree) speaks of Him "having come [PERFECT participle]" ("in flesh"), in His first advent.
The second verse (where we do not agree), I believe speaks to His "coming [present participle] in flesh" (also, yet future)...
... in the same way that (and I think you would agree, the following verse was telling of something YET TO COME [future], from the perspective of when it was written), 1Th1:10 "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING [PRESENT participle]," even if you believe it was speaking of "the events of 70ad" (future to this particular writing), like in Luke 21:23,20 ("and WRATH upon this people"--the 70ad events [I agree Lk21:12-24a speaks of the 70ad events!]).
Do you believe "the wrath" that this 1Th1:10 verse was speaking of, was yet "COMING [PRESENT participle]," as in, something yet future to this writing, or something "HAVING [ALREADY] COME [in the past, from this writing]"??
The first verse (we agree) speaks of Him "having come [PERFECT participle]" ("in flesh"), in His first advent.
The second verse (where we do not agree), I believe speaks to His "coming [present participle] in flesh" (also, yet future)...
... in the same way that (and I think you would agree, the following verse was telling of something YET TO COME [future], from the perspective of when it was written), 1Th1:10 "the One delivering us out-from THE WRATH COMING [PRESENT participle]," even if you believe it was speaking of "the events of 70ad" (future to this particular writing), like in Luke 21:23,20 ("and WRATH upon this people"--the 70ad events [I agree Lk21:12-24a speaks of the 70ad events!]).
Do you believe "the wrath" that this 1Th1:10 verse was speaking of, was yet "COMING [PRESENT participle]," as in, something yet future to this writing, or something "HAVING [ALREADY] COME [in the past, from this writing]"??
Thanks for explaining. I understand what you are saying now. But I think both the 1 and 2 John passages where he speaks of Jesus as coming in the flesh referred to when Jesus came in the flesh. It seems obvious from the point John was making. The 2 John 1 passage using the Present participle was because he was talking about the many deceivers who have gone out into the world denying Christ came in the flesh. They were out there right then, as he was writing this.
The 1 Thes 1:10 passage was definitely future to when John wrote it. That wrath was the wrath poured out on wicked Jerusalem in 70 AD.
The 1 Thes 1:10 passage was definitely future to when John wrote it. That wrath was the wrath poured out on wicked Jerusalem in 70 AD.