Health, Wealth & Prosperity

[Melach]

2. Why not, who says, and by what authority do you speak.
I commanded my healing to come for about an hour and one half straight, and it did just that.
So speak for yourself, using my tongue to make what I want or desire works for me.

i can imagine this guy just sitting there for an hour "in the name of Jesus sickness come out. in the name of Jesus sickness come out."

maybe add some tongue speaking to the mix too?

there is an atheist website called whywontGodhealamputees, i want my own christian website called whyshouldGodhealatourwill

 

[Melach]

Let's see you use it to avoid any aging and death.

Won't happen dude.

yeah true. just feels like some kenneth copeland name it claim it stuff to me. talking to yourself in the mirror manifesting your destiny walking in your destiny all this new doctrine. its to me look like a circus really.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

yeah true. just feels like some kenneth copeland name it claim it stuff to me. talking to yourself in the mirror manifesting your destiny walking in your destiny all this new doctrine. its to me look like a circus really.

You should see Copeland screaming “MONNNNEEEEYYY....COME TO ME” reaching out his grabby hands.

Of course the buffoons in his audience are only too willing to send it to him. Lemmings to the slaughter.

 

[know1]

Firstly, I am not bitter and I don't hate believers.

In fact, my understanding of how God uses suffering allows me to be joyful in the midst of unpleasant circumstances.

Secondly, I don't hate the promises of God. Nor do I experience heartache over unmet expectations, like WoF theology leads some people to.

Ultimately, it should lead to the same in all of them, because their body will age and decay and fail on them.

Thirdly, I realize that the primary reward of those who follow Christ is in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Fourthly, you are a liar, because you claimed that I called God a liar. I never called God a liar. He doesn't lie. If I don't believe in YOUR UNDERSTANDING of God's promises, that doesn't mean I am a liar. Your understanding is unbiblical.

For someone who doesn't hate the promises of God, you sure do ignore the ones I present, A LOT, as well as saying the realities of this natural world, are more true, supersede and/or are more powerful than that which is written. As though the word of God is filled with empty promises.
You believe the natural OVER what is written, even going so far as to say God won't do anything for those who believe and trust in Him for the things we ask for.
This says a couple of things, at the very least.
One being, the word of God is NOT in you.
You lift up and have faith in, the natural world, above the word of God, which is forever established in heaven, and the kingdom of heaven rules the kingdom of man.
And who or what is the god of this natural world, causing natural disasters, situations, and circumstances, sicknesses and diseases, mental illnesses and infirmities?
That is the one you have placed your faith in.
It is like the rich placing their faith in their wealth.
You condemn the wealthy, but fail to see yourself relying on and trusting in everything the god of this world rules over.
Which means, he rules over you, because your house is built on the sand.
But if you build you house upon the rock, like I have, when the god of this world brings calamity against me, it will be my God who will deliver me. And that will bring Him far greater glory than any suffering you or anyone else endure, while doing nothing about it spiritual, except for trying to find relief through natural means.
By placing your faith in the natural over the promises of God, you are in effect, calling God a liar.
That is what I meant when I said you were calling God, a liar.
If a situation doesn't line up with the word of God, that situation is a lie.
If what a person says, doesn't line up with the word of God, that person is a liar.
There is a reason why you fail to see the truth of God's word over what the natural world screams in your face, and it isn't because you are a believer in Christ.
On the contrary, Jesus said His sheep hear His word, which is the truth, and also why the children of light receive the light of the word.
So why can't you?
Why do you keep telling me, God's word won't have ANY EFFECT in my life, when I know that to be a lie? You might not, but I do.
Why do you NEVER EVER claim any of the promises of God?
Why do you continually tell me God WON'T DO THAT FOR YOU?
You are not a believer.
Not when I hear the same or similar language from both the agnostics and atheists.
A true believer doesn't call God a liar, seeing He said He both watches over and hasten to perform his word. But you say otherwise.
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruit or the fruit they produce, and a real believer in Christ does not, would not, and could not, speak such doubt, as you are propagating.

 

[Melach]

You should see Copeland screaming “MONNNNEEEEYYY....COME TO ME” reaching out his grabby hands.

Of course the buffoons in his audience are only too willing to send it to him. Lemmings to the slaughter.

its sad really. im torn on that subject. on one side i feel bad for those people that send him money and get scammed and he is pulling their leg

but on one side i also think wow those are some retarded people in that church like how are these guys this dumb. how can they tie their shoelaces with such an ape like IQ? really. so they deserve to be ripped off. but i still feel bad for them because maybe they got dropped on their heads or are suffering from mercury poisoning or like me they hit their head or maybe they are just going thru emotional trauma who knows. or maybe they just really are that dumb lolz

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You should see Copeland screaming “MONNNNEEEEYYY....COME TO ME” reaching out his grabby hands.

Of course the buffoons in his audience are only too willing to send it to him. Lemmings to the slaughter.

 

[Kim82]

We are not to expect physical blessings,

Not everyone will be rich and live like a rock star. However God does and will bless His children spiritually and physically.

He gave us a mind to understand. That is why we go to school, get big achievements, which results in well paid jobs, house, car, etc

Our loving Father also gives us talents that we were born with. We use these talents and are paid.

Or perhaps some were born into a rich family. This was not by their efforts, it was God's will.

So yes, I'm expecting God to bless me, even with a cup of tea in the morning and even with a glass of water to quench my thirst, yes I am looking to my Father.

I'm not looking to my job to bless me, but to God who give me the strength to get up and go to work.

Oh yes, I am expecting from God!

And He says we should. We may not get everything we desire. But He will bless us.

Matthew 6:28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

(This is not to say none will be poor or sick as some claim.)

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

its sad really. im torn on that subject. on one side i feel bad for those people that send him money and get scammed and he is pulling their leg

but on one side i also think wow those are some retarded people in that church like how are these guys this dumb. how can they tie their shoelaces with such an ape like IQ? really. so they deserve to be ripped off. but i still feel bad for them because maybe they got dropped on their heads or are suffering from mercury poisoning or like me they hit their head or maybe they are just going thru emotional trauma who knows. or maybe they just really are that dumb lolz

There was one guy here who followed WoF and Bethel’s teachings. I think he even went to their School of Supernatural Ministry. He realized at some point it was fake. He became very depressed and had no interest in Christianity after that. Unmet expectations lead to that sort of shipwreck.

This sort of thinking is disgustingly harmful.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Not everyone will be rich and live like a rock star. However God does and will bless His children spiritually and physically.

He gave us a mind to understand. That is why we go to school, get big achievements, which results in well paid jobs, house, car, etc

Our loving Father also gives us talents that we were born with. We use these talents and are paid.

Or perhaps some were born into a rich family. This was not by their efforts, it was God's will.

So yes, I'm expecting God to bless me, even with a cup of tea in the morning and even with a glass of water to quench my thirst, yes I am looking to my Father.

I'm not looking to my job to bless me, but to God who give me the strength to get up and go to work.

Oh yes, I am expecting from God!

And He says we should. We may not get everything we desire. But He will bless us.

Matthew 6:28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

(This is not to say none will be poor or sick as some claim.)

I call this providence. But my position doesn’t deny Gods providence, while realizing at the same time that suffering can and does work toward sanctification.

And God uses whatever means to form and shape vessels for his honor including suffering.

 

[Melach]

There was one guy here who followed WoF and Bethel’s teachings. I think he even went to their School of Supernatural Ministry. He realized at some point it was fake. He became very depressed and had no interest in Christianity after that. Unmet expectations lead to that sort of shipwreck.

This sort of thinking is disgustingly harmful.

yup i know two people personally who had that happen. i believe thats why that movement exists to make a joke out of christianity and its worked really well.

 

[KelbyofGod]

If God blesses us with money and material things above our needs then it violates love is the fulfilling of the law which includes feeding and clothing the poor and needy, so God would only bless us with our needs, and God does only bless us with our needs.

Paul said charity is greater than faith.

Paul said if anybody preaches that God blesses the saints with their wants above their needs then withdraw yourselves from them, having food ans clothing be content.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy.

And the saints appear poor to the world but possess all things to be given them in the future.

The early Church sold all that they had that was not a necessity and distributed the money to the saints that had need.

God wants people to prosper but only by their needs, not their wants, for God loves people not blessing the saints with money for personal use that has nothing to do with their needs, but their wants, for then it is not love towards people.

Some people suppose that godliness is gain, from such withdraw yourselves, having food and clothing be content.

Anything that is not a necessity the saints do not get unless they want to violate love which then faith is dead.

For love is greater than faith.

Matt,

I didn't know that you held this belief. (Not angry at you just curious/questioning). I understand a desire to avoid the love of money. Yet I don't see that possession of wealth and riches is a bad thing IF acquired in righteousness or even more specifically if given by God.

Think about Job. He was the richest man in the east, and God gave him twice as much once his trial was over. Job 1:3 & Job 42:10,12.

Our church had basically feared being blessed (not a godly fear). And God had to show me that wealth and riches do not have to contradict righteousness. He even promised both together in one verse. (That kind of blew my mind and I'm still trying to understand the implications).

Here's the verse:

Psalm 112:3 KJV
Wealth and riches shall be in his house: AND his righteousness endureth for ever.

Feel free to read the whole Psalm for reference. These are promises for serving God (rather than evil things like love of money). Kinda rocked my world.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KhedetOrthos]

. Even the NIV wants to use this word in Jeremiah 29:16 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

We are told in Psalm 139:16 that God writes the book of our life before we are even born. Every chapter and every verse. So that God's desire for us is written in a book that the Angels can read to help us to become the person God wants and intends for us to be. Does God want us to prosper and to be in good health? How can we understand Moses when he tells us that God's desire is for us to prosper?

1. Jeremiah 29:16 may be the second most misquoted scripture in the Bible behind Matthew 7:1. It is a promise to captive Israel, set in the middle of judgement. Context is everything. Jeremiah 29:4 says “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all who were carried away captive, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem to Babylon:”. So 29:4 puts 29:16 in its proper context. All the little Christian knick-knacks that quote 29:16 out of context only are evidence of poor exegesis.

2. An accurate translation of Psalm 139:16 reads

“Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.”

to take that generalized statement to mean that God has written out every detail of the template of our lives day by day is reading something into the verse that is not there.

3. Prosperity under the new covenant is not prosperity as the world - or even the Jews - saw it.

“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

Matthew 6:19-21

God can prosper us through good health, and most importantly through theosis or sanctification as we pick up our cross and follow Him.

 

[KhedetOrthos]

1. Words can have a consequence. For instance, words can either discourage or encourage a child leading to disastrous results or
great results. This does not mean you can cause things to magically appear by your words.

Correct. This sort of thing reeks of witchcraft and spell casting.

2. Internet claims are cheap. I know two others who claim to have resurrected dead people. One told me he lied about it later.
The other is someone who is immoral and engages in drunkenness and sexual immorality. Obviously she is not someone God
would use to resurrect the dead.

Even during Jesus‘ time on earth resurrection of the dead wasn’t a commonplace thing. In fact, it was the resurrection of Lazarus that galvanized the Jewish nation and led to the Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem on the 10th of Nisan, the day we celebrate today as Palm Sunday. We remember the resurrection of Lazarus on Lazarus Sunday and chant this hymn...

4. Word of Faith teachers like Kenneth Copeland and Fred Price claim that they are "little gods". Copeland even claims to control the
weather.

This is very dangerous teaching. Historically, the idea that we are little gods refers to the idea of theosis. What we would call perhaps sanctification or having the mind of Christ using modern English. However, pagan religions, Mormonism, and word faith misapply this to mean that we can become divine in essence, which is really the rebellion of Lucifer all over again:

“You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.” - Isaiah 14:13-14

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Correct. This sort of thing reeks of witchcraft and spell casting.



Even during Jesus‘ time on earth resurrection of the dead wasn’t a commonplace thing. In fact, it was the resurrection of Lazarus that galvanized the Jewish nation and led to the Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem on the 10th of Nisan, the day we celebrate today as Palm Sunday. We remember the resurrection of Lazarus on Lazarus Sunday and chant this hymn...

This is very dangerous teaching. Historically, the idea that we are little gods refers to the idea of theosis. What we would call perhaps sanctification or having the mind of Christ using modern English. However, pagan religions, Mormonism, and word faith misapply this to mean that we can become divine in essence, which is really the rebellion of Lucifer all over again:

“You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.” - Isaiah 14:13-14

I assume you are Orthodox..

At one point, I was associated with a cultic group that taught humans become God in the resurrection. They use theosis to give historical weight to their claim, too. Of course it is a false one.

Union with Christ leads to the believer becoming more Christ-like over time. This is a legitimate concept.

Word-of-Faith guys actually claim God is in the form of a man, and that we are in the "likeness of God" in this way. Also, they claim that redeemed humans can speak things into existence, like God.

It's whacky, really, and the reality is that those who believe their theology can't do it anyways, so who knows why they believe that?

 

[Jackson123]

For someone who doesn't hate the promises of God, you sure do ignore the ones I present, A LOT, as well as saying the realities of this natural world, are more true, supersede and/or are more powerful than that which is written. As though the word of God is filled with empty promises.
You believe the natural OVER what is written, even going so far as to say God won't do anything for those who believe and trust in Him for the things we ask for.
This says a couple of things, at the very least.
One being, the word of God is NOT in you.
You lift up and have faith in, the natural world, above the word of God, which is forever established in heaven, and the kingdom of heaven rules the kingdom of man.
And who or what is the god of this natural world, causing natural disasters, situations, and circumstances, sicknesses and diseases, mental illnesses and infirmities?
That is the one you have placed your faith in.
It is like the rich placing their faith in their wealth.
You condemn the wealthy, but fail to see yourself relying on and trusting in everything the god of this world rules over.
Which means, he rules over you, because your house is built on the sand.
But if you build you house upon the rock, like I have, when the god of this world brings calamity against me, it will be my God who will deliver me. And that will bring Him far greater glory than any suffering you or anyone else endure, while doing nothing about it spiritual, except for trying to find relief through natural means.
By placing your faith in the natural over the promises of God, you are in effect, calling God a liar.
That is what I meant when I said you were calling God, a liar.
If a situation doesn't line up with the word of God, that situation is a lie.
If what a person says, doesn't line up with the word of God, that person is a liar.
There is a reason why you fail to see the truth of God's word over what the natural world screams in your face, and it isn't because you are a believer in Christ.
On the contrary, Jesus said His sheep hear His word, which is the truth, and also why the children of light receive the light of the word.
So why can't you?
Why do you keep telling me, God's word won't have ANY EFFECT in my life, when I know that to be a lie? You might not, but I do.
Why do you NEVER EVER claim any of the promises of God?
Why do you continually tell me God WON'T DO THAT FOR YOU?
You are not a believer.
Not when I hear the same or similar language from both the agnostics and atheists.
A true believer doesn't call God a liar, seeing He said He both watches over and hasten to perform his word. But you say otherwise.
Jesus said you shall know them by their fruit or the fruit they produce, and a real believer in Christ does not, would not, and could not, speak such doubt, as you are propagating.

The real promise of God is eternal Prosperity in heaven not earthly rich and health.

Yes Jesus heal the sick and rise the death, but not always, If God always rise the death, than why not single apostle around today? All of them are death.

If God focus oN earthly Prosperity why Jesus say

Matthew 6:19

“Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:”

Also Jesus say

Mark 10:25 King James Version (KJV)
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Let me ask you a question,

Do you think Jesus love you mean He Will make easier for you to go to heaven or because He love you than make you a billioner to put you in the situation that It is easier for camel to go to the eyes of the niddle?

Camel enter the eye of the niddle is almost imposible so do the rich go to heaven.

That is what Jesus say, not me.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

 

[JohnR7]

1. Jeremiah 29:16 may be the second most misquoted scripture in the Bible behind Matthew 7:1.

I attended classes at the Bible college so I know a little bit about Biblical hermeneutics and the principles of interpretation. Of course we look at the literal interpretation first, for context. Then we look at how the passage applies to us today in our generation. Often we are better off to stay with the KJV when we question what God is saying to us and what His message is for us in this passage: "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." (Jeremiah 29:16) When God uses a word three times (thoughts) that should cause us to take notice. Jesus makes it clear the future we can expect: For Earth to become as Heaven is. That should give us all reason to hope.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I attended classes at the Bible college so I know a little bit about Biblical hermeneutics and the principles of interpretation. Of course we look at the literal interpretation first, for context. Then we look at how the passage applies to us today in our generation. Often we are better off to stay with the KJV when we question what God is saying to us and what His message is for us in this passage: "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." (Jeremiah 29:16) When God uses a word three times (thoughts) that should cause us to take notice. Jesus makes it clear the future we can expect: For Earth to become as Heaven is. That should give us all reason to hope.

This is Jeremiah 29:11. I don't see this in Jeremiah 29:16.

The contextual issue is that it is in a specific context relating to Israel, but I don't have a big issue with that...as all things work to the good of those who love God. However, that doesn't meant that suffering is not part of those things.

The person who believes in the sovereignty of God realizes that all things do, in fact, work toward the good of those who love God, even the suffering. It is part of conforming them to the image of Jesus. God is forming or shaping believers into vessels of honor, not dishonor. Short-sighted health, wealth, prosperity types ignore this fact, though, but they have to clasp their hands tightly over their eyes when they are reading Lazarus and the Rich Man and the book of Job.

Those sections are like garlic to vampires !

 

[JohnR7]

all things do, in fact, work toward the good of those who love God

I remember when I first read the scripture that tells us: "In all things give thanks". I though, you have GOT to be kidding me. I can think of lots of things that people would have trouble giving thanks for. Yet we know that all things work together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purpose. So in all things we give thanks.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I remember when I first read the scripture that tells us: "In all things give thanks". I though, you have GOT to be kidding me. I can think of lots of things that people would have trouble giving thanks for. Yet we know that all things work together for the good of those that love God and are called according to His purpose. So in all things we give thanks.

In fact, in the first chapter of James, trials are mentioned first, and then it talks about all good gifts coming from God.

It takes an other-world, born-again perspective to understand that.