Mary Mother of Jesus: Sinless?

[garee]

Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life

Then Moses said to the Lord, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people.’ But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.’

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

For the Lord God is a sun and shield; The Lord will give grace and glory; No good thing will He withhold From those who walk uprightly.

Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Noah delivered regeneration.
Moses delivered the Israelites.
Mary delivered the savior.

Mary delivered the Son of man according to the fleshly seed of mankind. A woman's blessing .It does not make her the mother of mercy. But rather a mother who received mercy according to the unseen spiritual seed(one) Christ, as the Son of God .

There simply is not such thing as "holiness of the flesh" . We continue to walk by faith the unseen eternal

The Son of God with power delivered her from the bondage of sin and the wage as he does with all who receive the fullness of Grace(every Christian)

Roman 1 makes it clearly removing all shadows of doubt . Why look through a glass darkly?

Note. . . (black) = dead seed

Note... (red) Son of God with power = living seed ,

Power no power . No limbo in between

Romans 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Not by his birth.

No man can serve two masters the spirit (life) and the flesh (death)

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Genesis 26:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.


Elohim/God wants the Sinless Image of his Son Yeshua/Jesus and he sent his Son Yeshua/Jesus to make Disciples of himself. Abraham does have and keeps the commandments and ordinances that Elohim/God gave him. The Zacharias Priesthood is the Levitical Priesthood.

thats simply not at all true. you quote a verse while not understanding what it means

it is the heart that God deals with and Abraham obeyed God...that was a result of his faith in God

Abraham was born and died about 450 years BEFORE Moses

Moses was the one God used to give the law to ancient Israel

I have no doubt you will stick stubbornly to your private interpretation and remain ignorant because of it

and you are not about to tell me anything about why God sent His Son since you cannot understand there were covenants BEFORE
Moses time

 

[7seasrekeyed]

When you said:"...I am righteous before God. I do not obey all the law but I do follow the 10 commandments...so am I perfect? "

I agree fully that you, nor do I, need Tom, Dick, and Harriet to agree with me about what I believe. My question, in light of the excerpt from your post, pasted above, and I should have pasted that very thing in my initial reply to you so as to be clear, my apologies, was to ask, you realize there are those who would respond to the contrary as to your personal statement concerning the ten commandments? As we've seen in the threads on the forum.
And in light of that then, expanding on my initial question, how would you respond to them?

I've done and the responses aren't concessionary as to the Ten Words/Ten Commandments of God, being applicable today for the Christian. Which I find odd to say the least.

Thank you for your patience.

oh sure I do realize some think it is a free for all, but I am leaning towards some here do obey the 10 (I mean anyone here contemplating murder?...well maybe in your heart, but the literal physical 10 C's were not interpreted that way. Jesus cleared it up for us by saying HEART matters) but always have to insert faith only saves...and then we get into if you have faith you will have works but your works do not save

rinse and repeat for thousands of posts and pages

AND IT NEVER ENDS! I avoid the 'not by works' thread because it is a never ending merry-go-round of people talking past each other and seeming to never come to any conclusion no matter how much scripture is touted and booted about

I have actually responded to them. fell on deaf ears. they talk past each other

you cannot thumb your nose at God's law and state you are saved but that does not seem to be the arguement

it goes as I said above in this post and round and round and round. you know I have a dog that can catch its tail...our little heeler...and when she catches it, she lets go just to get it again. same principle applies IMO

I don't like you being accused of saying you are sinless though, when it now seems you never said that

that is another reason I avoid the discussion...some folks twist what others say and make accusatory posts and it is hard to defend against it cause you get ganged up on

life is too short to play those stupid games

and it is not Christian either to say the least...very dishonest and I don't care who does it...it shows that you either have poor comprehension or you have to 'win' and Christianity is about truth, not scoring points with your buddies

 

[7seasrekeyed]

If you think you obey the ten commands, by that admission, you must be sinless

your the one demanding you can obey the commands, I am just giving you gods requirement

you May think you can water down the law so you can feel better about yourself that does; not mean God will ne obligated to accept your watered down version.

not necessarily. don't you obey the 10 C's...I do...but as we know, Jesus exposed the fact that it is the heart God looks upon...in case someone never read the OT, they are still without excuse

how much 'law' is too much law? since the 10 C's covered what a Christian's morality looks like, where is the problem?

I do not think whispered is saying that saves her...she seems to deny it

of course I do not think Mary was sinless for one minute, that flies in the face of scripture, but that is another argument

what is God's requirement exactly?

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.


sanctification? no one is perfect over night and if sanctification is biblical, then we must acknowledge what Jesus said

I know what YOU are saying...but I think you are talking PAST what some others are saying

 

[7seasrekeyed]

here she is saying that those who think you can not keep them are well in her own words a sociopath, psychopath, criminal, ignorant of what the 10 commandments teach, or lying.

so here she is declaring that she can keep those commands, the same commands the moses, paul and James declair that if we break even one, we are found guilty of the law.

stop looking for what is wrong and look at what is right

we MUST follow the morality of the 10 C's....we do anyway if we actually follow Christ

I don't necessarily agree with all the rhetoric...but she has a point

since I am pretty sure you do not go out and deliberately sin (I hope not?) aren't you also following the morality of the 10 C's...let's not get into dietary laws etc. I don't think this is about that

 

[7seasrekeyed]

So catholic worship Mary.

have done so for centuries

not sure if every Catholic does, but it cannot be denied they have done exactly that for hundreds of years

 

[7seasrekeyed]

No, she just demands we must keep,the ten commands,

well as moses Paul and James said, that demands perfection. Stumble in even one part your guilty.

she seems to think the law is a means of sanctification.

so it seems you are saying she is NOT saying she is sinless

so why would you state that she said that?

don't you see how that does not add to conversation and just alienates people even more?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

not necessarily. don't you obey the 10 C's...I do...but as we know, Jesus exposed the fact that it is the heart God looks upon...in case someone never read the OT, they are still without excuse

how much 'law' is too much law? since the 10 C's covered what a Christian's morality looks like, where is the problem?

I do not think whispered is saying that saves her...she seems to deny it

of course I do not think Mary was sinless for one minute, that flies in the face of scripture, but that is another argument

what is God's requirement exactly?

John 14:15-17
15 “If you love me, you will obey my commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another helper who will be with you forever. 17 That helper is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him, because it doesn’t see or know him. You know him, because he lives with you and will be in you.


sanctification? no one is perfect over night and if sanctification is biblical, then we must acknowledge what Jesus said

I know what YOU are saying...but I think you are talking PAST what some others are saying

Do I obey the ten?

Not as God requires

if I said I did I would be watering down the law

I look to the law of love for how to be obedient not the law given to Moses which just exposes how sinful I am

 

[eternally-gratefull]

stop looking for what is wrong and look at what is right

we MUST follow the morality of the 10 C's....we do anyway if we actually follow Christ

I don't necessarily agree with all the rhetoric...but she has a point

since I am pretty sure you do not go out and deliberately sin (I hope not?) aren't you also following the morality of the 10 C's...let's not get into dietary laws etc. I don't think this is about that

This is not about do I deliberately sin
it’s about can I follow Gods commands as required
the answer is no

Some people look to Commands as a means of being sanctified this is a mistake the command says do not commit adultry but Jesus said if you do this.....

Thus if we just follow the command we can think we obey it. When in reality we do not
jesus Exposed this fact to the Pharisees over and over
They thought they obeyed because they followed the letter
in reality they did Not follow the command and were found guilty. Which was Paul and james point

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so it seems you are saying she is NOT saying she is sinless

so why would you state that she said that?

don't you see how that does not add to conversation and just alienates people even more?

Because if she claims she follows the ten commands she must be sinless or else she is deceived

 

[Jackson123]

have done so for centuries

not sure if every Catholic does, but it cannot be denied they have done exactly that for hundreds of years

Not sure If every catholic does but the doctrine teach them or incourage them doing so

 

[Jackson123]

I believe The reason catholic teach Mary is sinless is to make foundation the next teaching tha she is queen of heaven so let pray to her

Queen of heaven is the goddees of roman religion

Basically catholic is roman religion that wrapped up with christianity or fake christian


I was talk to Indonesian catholic, he tell me that he able to communicate eith some of the death saint he light a candle start meditation and ask what ever he need to know

Every death saint has their own specialty

For Example If you have problem with your business talk to saint Homobonus. I ask him did he talk back to you? He say Yes he help me alot.

Friend, this is demonic not jesus

Jesus and bible never teach such thing

 

[UnoiAmarah]

a person walking in the commandments of God does not mean they are perfect

You're right, it doesn't. It means they are righteous.

Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So if you don't know what he meant then does that mean that a person can not be perfect before the LORD?

how was Abraham righteous before God if he did not have any commandments or ordinances from God?

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Gen 9:3-7

And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:12

So if Abram was born after Noah, then you might say that before Abraham was I am.

"...I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. ...."
Gen 17:1-2

people need to appreciate the fact that Abraham was righteous and he had nothing but a personal relationship with God

The LORD told Abram that his heir would not be the son begotten by the Egyptian handmaiden of his wife, but he that come forth out Abram's own bowels would be his heir.

Abram believed in the LORD and that was counted unto him as righteousness so where do draw the conclusion that Abram was righteous while concluding that Mary was defiled by sin?

Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.2 Cor 13:11

 

[garee]

thats simply not at all true. you quote a verse while not understanding what it means

it is the heart that God deals with and Abraham obeyed God...that was a result of his faith in God

Abraham was born and died about 450 years BEFORE Moses

Moses was the one God used to give the law to ancient Israel

I have no doubt you will stick stubbornly to your private interpretation and remain ignorant because of it

and you are not about to tell me anything about why God sent His Son since you cannot understand there were covenants BEFORE
Moses time

We must be careful how we hear or say we do. The seed snatcher (the spirit of lies) is ready devour.

It is in which heart of Abraham whose name means the father of many nation representing our father not seen ? The unconverted heart, desperately wicked and beyond repair? As in who could know it? Or the new born again one that comes with a new spirit that will never die?

The law was establish from the foundation of the world. "Thou shall not". The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit moved Moses to write it later. It was in effect long before it was written down being identified by believers as walking by faith of Christ that which comes from hearing God.

Recording it later as it is written..... a written law not subject to change. In the end of the matter protecting its integrity from the many oral traditions of corrupted men that do make the law without effect.

Romans 2:14-16 King James Version (KJV) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Gospel = unseen law of faith .

That seen the temporal must be mixed with the source of the unseen eternal .And then we can rest. Knowing it is God working in us to both will and do his good pleasure. It is he who can make it soft .

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Scripture justifies saying Mary was not sinless.

It is written in the scriptures that whosoever commits sin is of their father the devil and they will do the lusts of their father because there is no truth in them. So is that their justification?

If we say we are without sin we are liars and the Truth is not in us. .

Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin nor are they servants to sin because the Son has set them free.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

So excuse me if I don't buy into what you are saying....

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You're right, it doesn't. It means they are righteous.

Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." So if you don't know what he meant then does that mean that a person can not be perfect before the LORD?



3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
Gen 9:3-7

And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Gen 9:12

So if Abram was born after Noah, then you might say that before Abraham was I am.

"...I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. ...."
Gen 17:1-2



The LORD told Abram that his heir would not be the son begotten by the Egyptian handmaiden of his wife, but he that come forth out Abram's own bowels would be his heir.

Abram believed in the LORD and that was counted unto him as righteousness so where do draw the conclusion that Abram was righteous while concluding that Mary was defiled by sin?

have you cut out the book of Genesis from your Bible?

Abraham lived hundreds of years before the commandments were given so how was he obeying them?

so tell us how he obeyed the law when he was dead when it was given

what you quoted is not the law....you quoted what God said to Noah regarding FOOD. your diet...your food...does not make you holy in God's eyes and if you do not believe that, try to recall the vision Peter had about eating prohibited food

either you cannot find it or you refuse to see that Abraham was NOT MADE RIGHTEOUS by the law

his faith and obedience BECAUSE of that faith, was accounted for his righteousness

Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:6

our faith in Christ's fulfillment of the law is accredited to us for OUR righteousness

regarding what Jesus said: are you perfect? if you say yes, people will laugh because each one of us knows that no one is perfect

the word used for 'perfect' is better translated as 'complete', which is how it is translated in other places where the same word is used. Jesus had no expectations people were going to be perfect...we are only complete in God's eyes through the blood of Christ

people have been banned from this site for teaching sinless perfectionism. it is an aberrant teaching and NOT biblical and no I am not saying you are going to be banned. I am saying no one is sinless. if you say you have no sin, then, as John states, you make God a liar because God states every single person falls short of His standard...which is Himself

so unless you fancy yourself to be just like God, back off the aberrant teaching that you or anyone is expected to be sinless because it is not possible on this earth.

but you do what you want but you cannot say no one ever told you otherwise

God also says 'be holy for I am holy'. are you holy in the sense God is holy? of course not...God sees us through His Son who actually is and always has been sinless and holy

BUT...guess what? holy means to be set apart. set yourself apart from the world...you do not become God.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It is written in the scriptures that whosoever commits sin is of their father the devil and they will do the lusts of their father because there is no truth in them. So is that their justification?


Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin nor are they servants to sin because the Son has set them free.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 1 John 3:6

So excuse me if I don't buy into what you are saying....

this means sinning without being saved or someone who says they are saved but continues to sin and whose life does not change

stop misquoting scripture

this passage is speaking of continuing in sin

so excuse me if you misapprehend scripture

are you trying to teach sinlessness? that is not biblical

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Because if she claims she follows the ten commands she must be sinless or else she is deceived

that makes no sense

you are drawing a wrong conclusion

adding to what someone says often changes the meaning or intent of what they said

this would be why she objects to your replies and no I am not taking sides here

I simply read and go by what a persons says and try not to change what they said

I said I follow the 10 commandments and truly, every Christian tries to do so

it is another thing to say that is what saves you, but I think we can all agree we try to follow the morality that God says we should follow otherwise, how are we following Christ?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

This is not about do I deliberately sin
it’s about can I follow Gods commands as required
the answer is no

Some people look to Commands as a means of being sanctified this is a mistake the command says do not commit adultry but Jesus said if you do this.....

Thus if we just follow the command we can think we obey it. When in reality we do not
jesus Exposed this fact to the Pharisees over and over
They thought they obeyed because they followed the letter
in reality they did Not follow the command and were found guilty. Which was Paul and james point

you cannot follow the 10 commandments at the very least?

that's a tad scary since that is the basis for being 'holy' or set aside as God commands.

I don't care about the 'some' people since we are not discussing the some people. focus on what is at hand and not diversionary tactics

and who cares about the Pharisees. God gave the commandments and God says be holy...set apart

we are set apart when we follow what pleases God and live for Christ. that will definitely set us apart from the world

the Pharisees have no part in this discussion as we are saying we are believing Christians...which, I take for granted, means we believe certain things and ACT on those things

in other words, a Christian is supposed to have and follow certain standards and since neither you nor I were saved yesterday, we KNOW what those things are and they do not save us, but since we ARE saved, we ACT like we are

that's plain enough in James

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Do I obey the ten?

Not as God requires

if I said I did I would be watering down the law

I look to the law of love for how to be obedient not the law given to Moses which just exposes how sinful I am

post above deals with this

God does not require you to obey in the sense of perfection and I think you know that but are dodging

you took to the law of love...oh for pity's sake

can't you see that not committing adultery is love for your wife?

not stealing is love for the person from whom you do not steal?

not wanting what someone else has is love in that you are thankful they have what they do so you do not end up coveting?

not murdering is love?

and so on

and of course the greatest of all, love for our God because we put Him first and do not create idols

love, as God describes it, is ACTION...POSITIVE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION and it follows the 10 commandments very concisely

pretty sure Jesus knew that and summed up the law by saying 'love'...He didn't mean get butterflies in your stomach

the love God had/has and the love Jesus had/has, was sacrifice.

shall I go further and say no sacrifice equals no love?

I don't know anymore what people think Jesus meant by summing up the law with love

to sum up something, in this case the law, means to give a TOTAL of the foregoing figures...in this case the 10 C's...and provide the total which happens to be love

in fact, and this many will not like, OBEDIENCE is love in God's economy