Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[PlainWord]

Yup, I learned a few more examples of what happens when you spiritualize the text..you can twist it to mean what you want it to mean.

I didn't spiritualize anything. I showed you identical passages in the OT, citing examples when the presence of God came in judgment and pointed out that Christ described His return in the same exact ways using "cosmic disturbance" language. If that's spiritualizing, than God spiritualized it.

Literally, when the presence of God comes into our realm He rides dark clouds darkening the skies, AKA darkening the sun, moon and stars for those in the vicinity. He has to, His glory is so bright it would kill every creature in the area. Take a moment to read the passages I cite then compare them to Mat 24. You are letting your biases get in the way of learning.

 

[PlainWord]

Look how David records the presence of God in Psm 18:

7 Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
8 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
10 And He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
He flew upon the wings of the wind.
11 He made darkness His secret place;
His canopy around Him was dark waters
And thick clouds of the skies.
12 From the brightness before Him,
His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire.
13 The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice,
Hailstones and coals of fire

 

[Kolistus]

Cosmic Disturbances as mentioned in Mat 24 and Rev 6 have a double meaning. The glory of nations are said to be measured in brightness. When a nation is destroyed by God using foreign armies, which was very common, God "puts out the lights" of that nation. In boxing we use a similar phrase, "He knocked the lights out of his opponent." In Daniel 12:3 we see that the righteous are described as bright lights, "Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever."

The below is another example of God darkening a country He is destroying, using familiar cosmetic disturbance language.

585 BC - Destruction of Egypt (Ezek 32): 2 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him: 3 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I will therefore spread My net over you with a company of many people, And they will draw you up in My net. 7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light. 8 All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you, And bring darkness upon your land,” Says the Lord God.

539 BC - Destruction of Babylon (Isa 13): The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. The Lord of hosts musters The army for battle. 5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven— 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

598-582 BC - Destruction of Judea (Joel 2): Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations. 3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them. 4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run. 10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.

66-70 AD - Destruction of Judea and Jerusalem (Joel 2): “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. 32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem...

Mat 24: 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6: 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Thus, the Presence of God/Jesus often precede the destruction which befalls a nation about to face God's judgment. It should be noted, in Mat 24, Jesus is not talking about coming after the Great Tribulation but rather after the tribulation of Mat 24:9, the slaughtering of Christians. Divine wrath presence always precedes the enemy forces doing the destruction.

If this is all in the past, why are we still here? When does all the sin death and misery stop on this earth?

 

[PlainWord]

If this is all in the past, why are we still here? When does all the sin death and misery stop on this earth?

There is no teaching that sin, death and misery on the earth ends? Why do you think that?

 

[Kolistus]

There is no teaching that sin, death and misery on the earth ends? Why do you think that?

No tears no sorrow in the new earth, death swallowed up in victory, last enemy to be destroyed is death. It is in the Bible and I dont know what churches youve been going to, but if they didnt tell you that, they were some baaad churches

 

[crossnote]

I didn't spiritualize anything. I showed you identical passages in the OT, citing examples when the presence of God came in judgment and pointed out that Christ described His return in the same exact ways using "cosmic disturbance" language. If that's spiritualizing, than God spiritualized it.

Literally, when the presence of God comes into our realm He rides dark clouds darkening the skies, AKA darkening the sun, moon and stars for those in the vicinity. He has to, His glory is so bright it would kill every creature in the area. Take a moment to read the passages I cite then compare them to Mat 24. You are letting your biases get in the way of learning.

Ever hear of the Incarnation? Can you explain (which hasn't yet happened)...

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(Zec 14:3-4)

Specific locations are mentioned as well as geological upheavals. I suppose that has happened 'spiritually' or will happen 'spiritually' by an invisible Christ?

 

[PlainWord]

Ever hear of the Incarnation? Can you explain (which hasn't yet happened)...

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(Zec 14:3-4)

Specific locations are mentioned as well as geological upheavals. I suppose that has happened 'spiritually' or will happen 'spiritually' by an invisible Christ?

Zech 14 is about Antiochus and the Maccabees. Yes physical things happened as noted. But God actually came, in His presence, to fight on the side of the Maccabees? God, as the ultimate spiritual being, can make crazy things happen. Jesus' return was the same way.

In Zechariah 14:2, the prophet predicts that “half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.” 2 Maccabees 5:14 records the fulfillment of this verse when describing Antiochus Epiphanies’ entry into Jerusalem to seize the treasures of the Temple at the start of the Maccabean Wars. 2 Maccabees 5:14 reads, “Within the total of three days eighty thousand [people of Jerusalem] were destroyed, forty thousand in hand-to-hand fighting, and as many were sold into slavery as were killed.

The fact that God fought for the Jews against their Gentile enemies during the Maccabean Wars is explicitly stated in 2 Maccabees 11:13 and 15:8. Illustrating this idea angelic warriors from heaven are said to have appeared to protect the Jews and defeat their enemies in 2 Maccabees 3:24-34; 10:29-31; and 11:8.

4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.​

 

[Kolistus]

Ever hear of the Incarnation? Can you explain (which hasn't yet happened)...

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(Zec 14:3-4)

Specific locations are mentioned as well as geological upheavals. I suppose that has happened 'spiritually' or will happen 'spiritually' by an invisible Christ?

Right. There are too many details included in these verses

 

[Mdennis1]

I don't see an Eschatology section, so I'll post this here...(Mods, if there is a more appropriate section, please move the thread there).

Revelation 20:4-5 NASBS
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

For those who hold to an Amillennial position, (usually stated as an indefinite amount of time starting from the cross to Christ's return), who are those in v.4 and are they reigning now with Christ?
Who are those in v.5 (rest of the dead)?
Which of these two is the 'first resurrection'? Both?

Jesus always talks about this age and age to come.. In the Gospels when he speak his return there's always a separation of the wheat and the chaff..
Also upon his return the last enemy to conquered is death..
Scripture is very clear that happens at his return..
You always look at is clearly understood in the Bible to interpret what's not.
There are 3 or 4 major views of eschatology and I don't believe anyone has it completely right..

What is clear scripture talks about being ready for Christs return..
To be sober and a big John to be ready
Gods Blessings

 

[crossnote]

The fact that God fought for the Jews against their Gentile enemies during the Maccabean Wars is explicitly stated in 2 Maccabees 11:13 and 15:8. Illustrating this idea angelic warriors from heaven are said to have appeared to protect the Jews and defeat their enemies in 2 Maccabees 3:24-34; 10:29-31; and 11:8.

4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

'Angelic warriors from heaven'?...The text says 'his feet' not 'their feet'. And I suppose this also happened?[QUOTE] the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. [/QUOTE]
Maybe Maccabees recorded a precursor to Zech 14 but it is missing many details.

 

[azamzimtoti]

Zech 14 is about Antiochus and the Maccabees. Yes physical things happened as noted. But God actually came, in His presence, to fight on the side of the Maccabees? God, as the ultimate spiritual being, can make crazy things happen. Jesus' return was the same way.

In Zechariah 14:2, the prophet predicts that “half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.” 2 Maccabees 5:14 records the fulfillment of this verse when describing Antiochus Epiphanies’ entry into Jerusalem to seize the treasures of the Temple at the start of the Maccabean Wars. 2 Maccabees 5:14 reads, “Within the total of three days eighty thousand [people of Jerusalem] were destroyed, forty thousand in hand-to-hand fighting, and as many were sold into slavery as were killed.

The fact that God fought for the Jews against their Gentile enemies during the Maccabean Wars is explicitly stated in 2 Maccabees 11:13 and 15:8. Illustrating this idea angelic warriors from heaven are said to have appeared to protect the Jews and defeat their enemies in 2 Maccabees 3:24-34; 10:29-31; and 11:8.

4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.​

I dunno about the above PLW.

For me the context is 1st century AD when the living waters of Zechariah 14:8 flowed:

(Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. )

Did living waters flow in the context of the Maccabees?

We know that in John's gospel Jesus speaks of living water:

(John 7:38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’)

(John 7:39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

As far as I know there is only one source of the living waters in John 7:38-39 and John's apocalypse:

(Rev 22:1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb)

(Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.)

The living waters/river of the water of life began flowing at Pentecost, since Pentecost anyone through Christ has been able to take of the water of life.

 

[garee]

In Zechariah 14:2, the prophet predicts that “half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.” 2 Maccabees 5:14 records the fulfillment of this verse when describing Antiochus Epiphanies’ entry into Jerusalem to seize the treasures of the Temple at the start of the Maccabean Wars. 2 Maccabees 5:14 reads, “Within the total of three days eighty thousand [people of Jerusalem] were destroyed, forty thousand in hand-to-hand fighting, and as many were sold into slavery as were killed

Maccabees is a witness of men just like the book of Mormon . They are identified as those who go above all the is written in the law and the prophets . It simply violates the warning not to add or subtract from the complete or perfect book of prophecy. Sealed with 7 seals till the end of time.

The declaration Zechariah 14 begins on the "last day" under the sun. Called in many ways The day of the Lord, the last day, the later day, the day of Jesus Christ: or in Revelation on the 'Lord's day, the last trump"

Revelation 1 :10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The spiritual unseen by the eyes understanding must be searched out, comparing the spiritual unseen understanding to the same unseen understanding or faith to faith . The gospel

Not a literal interpretation alone but as a parable but mixed with faith. Mountains are kingdoms. No night . The Sun and the moon under the feet of the bride( past history). as that which will not be remember or ever come to mind.

Zechariah 14:1- 9King James Version (KJV) Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

It is simply a companion passage to be compared to Revelation 21 the signified tongue of God.

Revelation 21:22-25 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

 

[garee]

There is no teaching that sin, death and misery on the earth ends? Why do you think that?

It will end on the last day. Same day in the twinkling of the eye saints Christ's bride receive the end of their faith the promised new bodies.

Both death as the letter of the law and hell. . "the tribulations or living suffering of death" will cast into the judgment fire of God. Never to rise and condemn a entire creation. In dying as death you will die. . not suffer.

Hell as a living suffering is the work of death .By the sweat of ones face

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

No sweating underground.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Not death and then comes hell (suffering) . But all one work. The second death . . the "letter of the law"

The letter of the law will not rise and condemn through corruption another entire creation in the new incorruptible order . .

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Again not death and then hell. death as hell by reason of suffering unto death. No dead .

 

[Timothy5378]

Wow there is some wild stuff in here going on lmao

Think Truth Is and all God says is the same to all...how then is it that we have all these threads with opposite views being discussed...God is not like this...the truth does get said in each thread yet it's not received by some

 

[PlainWord]

No tears no sorrow in the new earth, death swallowed up in victory, last enemy to be destroyed is death. It is in the Bible and I dont know what churches youve been going to, but if they didnt tell you that, they were some baaad churches

Are you aware of a place called, "Heaven?" Did they teach you about heaven in your church? That's where there are no more tears.

DEATH = SEPARATION FROM GOD (in Hades)

Christ defeated THAT death, not physical death. Heb 9:27 teaches ALL must die (physically), then we each face judgment. We don't go to Hades anymore when we die as those did before the Cross. We go straight to Heaven. PRAISE THE LORD!!

 

[garee]

Wow there is some wild stuff in here going on lmao

Think Truth Is and all God says is the same to all...how then is it that we have all these threads with opposite views being discussed...God is not like this...the truth does get said in each thread yet it's not received by some

Unity and not uniformity comes by how we hear him not seen or say we do. Jesus said there must be heresies as differences, private interpretations or personal commentaries among us. Some use the tools for interpreting so that we can obey the commandment to study to show our approval unto him . Others ignore tools needed to rightly divide the parables, And literalize the unseen "signified" understanding(spiritual)

 

[Timothy5378]

I'm going to say if we all were in a room together and spent some years reading the whole Bible 50 times one book at a time of the 66 and talked about each verse in context then all this opposite views stuff would be almost gone...people don't read and study enough...

You can't have pre mid and post trib...the Bible is only one...abd it's pre...it can't be anything else....God is not wanting us to have all these opposing views in His church

People don't want His Word as He said

They would have itchy ears and the truth would be lost

How does this site explain that Christians can't agree on any major issue...every thread has people who claim Christ arguing opposite views...

It can't be like this...the church became denominations from hell and the cults now to have gained denominational status...the lies are protected within the denominations and cults and Satanic Bible under freedom of religion and compromise...standing up for the One Truth of the Bible is being lost...Christians don't want to share their faith...for now we have sooooo many bad views...and 2 thirds of the country just doesn't want God...most people here don't know there Bible for how do we argue over every thread????????????????

 

[Kolistus]

Are you aware of a place called, "Heaven?" Did they teach you about heaven in your church? That's where there are no more tears.

DEATH = SEPARATION FROM GOD (in Hades)

Christ defeated THAT death, not physical death. Heb 9:27 teaches ALL must die (physically), then we each face judgment. We don't go to Hades anymore when we die as those did before the Cross. We go straight to Heaven. PRAISE THE LORD!!

Its not just heaven, its new EARTH as well

 

[crossnote]

...the truth does get said in each thread yet it's not received by some

Thanks for agreeing with my view

 

[garee]

Are you aware of a place called, "Heaven?" Did they teach you about heaven in your church? That's where there are no more tears.

DEATH = SEPARATION FROM GOD (in Hades)

Christ defeated THAT death, not physical death. Heb 9:27 teaches ALL must die (physically), then we each face judgment. We don't go to Hades anymore when we die as those did before the Cross. We go straight to Heaven. PRAISE THE LORD!!

I would offer. DEATH = SEPARATION FROM GOD.... the living suffering as the wage of death... on earth.( not under ground no oxygen)
The wrath (Roman1) that is being revealed from heaven (a dying corrupted creation) seen even today and will end on the last day .

The last day. When death as to the "letter of law" it will be cast as judgment fire judgement of God. Never to rise and condemn through corruption to total destruction another entire creation.

Not one rudiment or molecule will be part of the new heaven and earth . Not a rebuild, or reconditioned. As sons of God we do not know what we will be when we receive the goal of our new faith a incorruptible body. Ageless .

One thing certainty not what we are a corrupted creation.

God is a God of mercy. Not a God of eternal vengeance. Like for instance (suffer forever, that will teach you not to have enough brains to figure out the right choice).

Mankind, not converted, simply returns to the dust. Some murmur and seem to be saying suffer forever.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings hilipians 2:13 -114

In that way. Possibly forgetting the principle in James that God himself is subject to.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Mercy does not rejoice with Judgement. No love there. . food for terrorist

Dead people without a spirit cannot suffer. There bodies simply return to the lifeless spiritless dust in was formed from. Their temporal spirit that was killed according to the letter of the law returns to its source .

The foundation of hell. . a living above ground work. Its foundation is revealed in Genesis 4. (Cain and Able)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.