Not By Works

[mailmandan]

You have not addressed the issue of cleanness.
We know God will declare an unbelieving spouse clean for contact by the believing spouse. If he didn't then the children would be made unclean by the unbelieving spouse. We all get that.

Now, you have to show me the scripture that says God will declare a willfully sinning person in the church clean for contact by believers. This is what you have not done, but need to do to in order to prove that the sanctified person in Hebrews 10:29 is a sanctified/unsaved person and not a sanctified/saved person who is trampling on the blood of Christ that sanctified him. I have already showed you this supposed sanctified unsaved person you say Hebrews 10:29 is talking about doesn't exist. You have to address this point. Show me in scripture where he does exist. Talking about the unsaved but sanctified spouse doesn't address that point.

So you are looking for the specific word "clean" in Hebrews 10:29 and you think that wins your argument? lol You are really grasping for straws now. I have already showed you that "sanctified" or 'set apart' as an active participant (who drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul - Hebrews 10:39) in the Hebrew Christian community of believers doesn't mean saved, just as an unbelieving spouse in 1 Corinthians 7:14 who is "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse doesn't mean saved. Sanctified (in regards to being saved) once for all/perfected for all time (Hebrews 10:10,14) is in contradiction with "were (past tense) sanctified" (in regards to being saved) but no longer are sanctified. (Hebrews 10:29) You really need to stop fighting against the truth.

 

[mailmandan]

as I said, some people will not accept any answer, they just keep firing off questions and demands, and respond to answers with more questions and demands.

but, that is what legalism is- questions and demands..

 

[mailmandan]

I have to get ready for work now. Someone else will have to take my place as my arm is getting tired.

 

[Judges1318]

So you are looking for the specific word "clean" in Hebrews 10:29 and you think that wins your argument?

No. 'Sanctified' already means 'made clean'.

In fact, you've been trying to use 1 Corinthians 7:14 where it talks about an unbelieving spouse being made clean for the sake of the children to defend the person in Hebrews 10:29 as being the same unbelieving unsaved person made clean (sanctified) by God.

But if you are sure you are right, that God makes willfully sinning hypocrites clean (sanctified) for contact with and association with believers, like he does an unbelieving spouse for the believing spouse, then you need to show me the passage that says that because I showed you, specifically, where he does not do that. Thus making your assertion false.

1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Corinthians 6 make it impossible for you to assert that the sanctified person in Hebrews 10:29 is a sanctified unbeliever.

 

[EleventhHour]

That's right.
Only 4th type of soil has any reasonable boast of osas.
That rules out about 95% of the genuinely believing church.

This is the most ridiculous statement ever.... a complete lack of understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ if I ever saw one.

Eternal security is not a progressive process....such outrageous dogma!!

Well this proves to me that whatever is outside of the truth of OSAS is essentially Catholicism...and you interpret the parable just like them.

Catholicism should never be a place from whence anyone draws any truth.

 

[OneOfHis]

No. 'Sanctified' already means 'made clean'.

In fact, you've been trying to use 1 Corinthians 7:14 where it talks about an unbelieving spouse being made clean for the sake of the children to defend the person in Hebrews 10:29 as being the same unbelieving unsaved person made clean (sanctified) by God.

But if you are sure you are right, that God makes willfully sinning hypocrites clean (sanctified) for contact with and association with believers, like he does an unbelieving spouse for the believing spouse, then you need to show me the passage that says that because I showed you, specifically, where he does not do that. Thus making your assertion false.

1 Corinthians 5 and 2 Corinthians 6 make it impossible for you to assert that the sanctified person in Hebrews 10:29 is a sanctified unbeliever.

You are imputing a belief to others here which is "unbelievers can be saved" which is not true.

The person you are trying to impute these beliefs to would say "A believer is born again as a son and remains a son by Gods power."


In the church (body of Christ) we have wheat and tares, sheep and goats...


A goat may loudly profess Christs name, never being made new. A liar and imposter.

A sheep (like peter) may deny Christs name.... not once but many times....


God knows full well who is His and keeps who is His.


God is not decieved or surprised or swayed by our actions. He moves by His will and His love and His mercy and keeps every promise.

 

[OneOfHis]

That's right.
Only 4th type of soil has any reasonable boast of osas.
That rules out about 95% of the genuinely believing church.

Are you Fran or Ralph or both?

They both have made this claim.

 

[EleventhHour]

T

It's quite disturbing indeed! Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" that produced fruit and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING, WITHERING OR BEING UPROOTED THEREAFTER.

In Matthew 15:3, Jesus mentions the type of plants that will be uprooted. - "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. Reminds me of the parable of the wheat and the tares.

They go to great lengths it seems, always able to distort and fabricate nonsense.

 

[EleventhHour]

Are you Fran or Ralph or both?

They both have made this claim.

Just Ralph

That's right.

 

[VCO]

as I said, some people will not accept any answer, they just keep firing off questions and demands, and respond to answers with more questions and demands.

but, that is what legalism is- questions and demands..

I think they ONLY have a prepared response to one possible reply to them, and IF YOU DO NOT RESPOND TO THEM WITH THAT SPECIFIC REPLY. THEY ARE LOST, AND THEREFORE THEY HAVE TO ASK MORE QUESTIONS.

Very, limited on KNOWLEDGE of the BIBLE, when all you have is A learned response to a BIBLE TRUTH.

That is why, I will always try to give TWO or THREE (or More) verses as WITNESSES to their False Doctrinal Statements.

It gives them LESS wiggle Room to get out of BELIEVING THE TRUTH.

 

[VCO]

That's right.
Only 4th type of soil has any reasonable boast of osas.
That rules out about 95% of the genuinely believing church.

Genuine Believing is with the HEART, NO WITH YOUR HEAD KNOWLEDGE ONLY WILL NOT SAVE YOU. IT SAYS SO.

Romans 10:8-11 (NIV)
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
HEART is where the Human Spirit resides, it is talking about being BORN AGAIN. The other soils only have Head Knowledge, does not SAVE. Even the Demons have that kind of knowledge.

11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." < < < That is OSAS Verse!


You are only counting actual Church-Goers, thereby counting the MANY, with the FEW that enter the Narrow GATE.

This Parable is about the MANY, that are on the Road to Destruction of Hades/Hell. And the Parable is only people who call themselves "Christian" on both roads. And if your Percentage is accurate, {95%}, have NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN, and are the MANY. You are not a REAL CHRISTIAN, until YOU HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN.


John 3:3 (NIV)
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Jesus' own words make it plain that NO ONE not the Narrow Word, can expect to go to HEAVEN, because they are NOT Born Again.

IS IT ANY WONDER WHY PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR THEIR SALVATION, WILL BE SO BITTER TOWARDS GOD ? ? ?

Matthew 13:42 (ASV)
42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 7:13-23 (NIV)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. [.Of TRUSTING HIM for 100% of your SALVATION.] For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. [.NO FRUIT Purely of LOVE, means you are UNSAVED, and NEVER HAVE BEEN, 1 John 2:19.]
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
[.The only soil that produces a CROP, are the Truly SAVED CHRISTIANS on the NARROW ROAD.]

The MANY in Verse 20 and 22, are ON THE WRONG ROAD, heading towards Hades and Hell. NOTICE VERSE 22: they THINK their religious works earned their salvation, and it DOES NOT.

You do not trust HIM 100%, do you ? ? ? Or you would KNOW HE SAVED YOU ON THE CROSS, and YOU WOULD LOVE HIM 100%.
Instead, you think you have to do your part to be saved. THAT SHOWS YOU DO NOT TRUST HIM 100%.

 

[VCO]

This is the most ridiculous statement ever.... a complete lack of understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ if I ever saw one.

Eternal security is not a progressive process....such outrageous dogma!!

Well this proves to me that whatever is outside of the truth of OSAS is essentially Catholicism...and you interpret the parable just like them.

Catholicism should never be a place from whence anyone draws any truth.

Don't forget to add other denominations that use a Catechism to indoctrinate youths into a belief system, like the Catholics.

 

[Tellion]

Don't forget to add other denominations that use a Catechism to indoctrinate youths into a belief system, like the Catholics.

All education is technically indoctrination. Saying the word doesn't automatically make it especially heinous. When you memorize Bible verses, that is, by definition, indoctrination.

 

[Nobodybutjesus]

I am not sure you can understand this, and it might be just Foolishness to you.

1 Corinthians 2:4-16 (NIV)
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


Genuine FAITH, is not an intellectual acceptance of something that is TRUTH.

It is something the Holy Spirit Put into our Hearts, the Born Again Human Spirit.

Without it, you cannot understand Scripture correctly, because it is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

And Spiritually Discerned IS ACTUALLY A DEEP DOWN in your HEART (our Human Spirit), which is Genuine FAITH.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


That SAVING FAITH was put into our HEARTS, by the HOLY SPIRIT.

It is not something that happens between your ears.

Well I appreciate your very humbling response. You see, we know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God. We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Here's how Jesus lived that you should follow,

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

Do you have the same mind as Jesus? Would you suffer for a brethren? Would you humble yourself by becoming obedient to death or would you just claim a faith without works that seems like very easy, attractive and without the need to suffer for someone else?

Sorry bro but I prefer to serve my Lord Jesus and share in His sufferings while waiting for Him.

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 9:27-28

Praise God!
All glory belongs to Him.

 

[EleventhHour]

All education is technically indoctrination. Saying the word doesn't automatically make it especially heinous. When you memorize Bible verses, that is, by definition, indoctrination.

Memorizing bible verses ....well maybe
self-indoctrination.

Education is only indoctrination when it is done uncritically I think.
So I disagree.

 

[EleventhHour]

Well I appreciate your very humbling response. You see, we know that “We all possess knowledge.” But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God. We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth. To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Here's how Jesus lived that you should follow,

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him. Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!

Do you have the same mind as Jesus? Would you suffer for a brethren? Would you humble yourself by becoming obedient to death or would you just claim a faith without works that seems like very easy, attractive and without the need to suffer for someone else?

Sorry bro but I prefer to serve my Lord Jesus and share in His sufferings while waiting for Him.

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Hebrews 9:27-28

Praise God!
All glory belongs to Him.

I disagree with a lot here.
Your suffering will not save you.

 

[OneOfHis]

1.)We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.




2.)Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.


3.)But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them.


4.)This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing.

1. )
5083. téreó ►

Strong's Concordance

téreó: to watch over, to guard​

Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

To keep is not to "obey" perfectly, without the need for reproof or correction -> Be as Jesus.

2.) 1. john 2
4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 john 1


8/10.) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

3.) 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:





4.​

Revelation 21:7
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

1 John 5:5-13
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.​

 

[dcontroversal]

This thinking is the exact reason we have so much divisiveness in the church today.

The exact reason is because stooges and clowns such as yourself reject the bible and then twists, skews and re-writes it after your own religiously inept erroneous view while rejecting context, verb tense, the definition of words and common sense!

 

[dcontroversal]

This is the most ridiculous statement ever.... a complete lack of understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ if I ever saw one.

Eternal security is not a progressive process....such outrageous dogma!!

Well this proves to me that whatever is outside of the truth of OSAS is essentially Catholicism...and you interpret the parable just like them.

Catholicism should never be a place from whence anyone draws any truth.

Almost everything he spews falls into this bolded statement.....he will find out one day how wrong he was......and we all know the cost!!

 

[dcontroversal]

All education is technically indoctrination. Saying the word doesn't automatically make it especially heinous. When you memorize Bible verses, that is, by definition, indoctrination.

There is a vast difference between religious indoctrination and biblical transformation.......