Life after death.

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

Lets go with your original rendition.
The way you look at it...
There are two audiences..
1. Thoee who will recieve vengeance
2. Those who will see hos glory.
There's no other way to see it...like the separation of goat and sheep.

Mat 25:31-33 KJV 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:41 KJV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Does it not sound the same....
DEPART FROM ME....
you original rendition
AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD.

You know yourself. You are trying to convince yourself you are right about death being a separation to God...but its not...you can fool yourselves like those who claim to be speaking in tongues but are not...they are just babbling...

But for the sake of reading...
Why you have forsaken me...this your defense that Christ was separated from God at death?????[/QUOTE]

Watcher2013, you continue to drift from one subject to another. That said, I am not going to comment on any of these.

This is the truth of the matter, when the wicked die, their spirits go into Sheol/Hades where, like the rich man, will remain in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment. After that judgment, when their names are not found in the book of life, they are cast into the lake of fire, conscious and aware where they will be eternally separated from the Lord. This is what the collective word of God teaches regarding the fate of the unsaved. I have provided you with all of the scriptures, whether you choose to believe them is up to you.

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

"Then the master (God) summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! (believer) I forgave all your debt (sin) because you begged me. Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

So, according to the scripture, when that servant/believer had an unforgiving heart towards his fellow servant/believer and his master who forgave him his entire debt (all sin), he was brought back in before his master who reinstated his debt because of his unforgiving spirit. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "this is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Watcher2013, you continue to drift from one subject to another. That said, I am not going to comment on any of these.

This is the truth of the matter, when the wicked die, their spirits go into Sheol/Hades where, like the rich man, will remain in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment. After that judgment, when their names are not found in the book of life, they are cast into the lake of fire, conscious and aware where they will be eternally separated from the Lord. This is what the collective word of God teaches regarding the fate of the unsaved. I have provided you with all of the scriptures, whether you choose to believe them is up to you.[/QUOTE]
Actually I am not drifting...I am just straigthening the twisted interpretation of yours.

I am not against your whole statement. Actually we agree on the following.
When the wicked die.
1. Body goes to grave.
2. Spirit or breath of life go back to god who gave it.
3. Soul in hell in hot and dark environment. Waiting judgement.
4. Resurrected at great white throne.
5. Cast in lake of fire if found guilty.
This is where we differ.
1. Your doctrine teaches eternal punishment of body and soul of all the wicked.
2. Your doctrine teaches that death (1st death and second) is a separation from God.
3. Your doctrine teaches that Jesus was separated from God at death.

Compare to what I am trying to show to you.
1. The wicked will be cast in hell...tormented according to their works....different degree then destroyed...some may last forever.
2.angels are thw ones tormented eterbally for they are heavenly being to begin with.
3. Eternal fire for eternal being..
4. Death is death...no additional teaching that it separation from God.
I enjoyed the discussion

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

You do not just select...applies all treatment.
The servant is a servant...its a parable..nothing it says its a believer...

A man forgive...God forgives.
A man does not forgive, God will not forgive then God will send the man to torment the man what is due...
Even in here. God does not sent them eternally...God torment them for what is DUE. A merciful and righteous judge

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

So, where in scripture did you get the idea that after the wicked are tormented they are then destroyed? There is no such scripture.

The spirits of human beings are also eternal, which is what you are not understanding. Whether angel or human, both will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Death does not mean one ceases to existent. It is the existing state or condition of those who die in their sins in relation to God.

Consider the rich man and Lazarus. The scripture states that both Lazarus and the rich man died, yet their spirits where very much conscious and aware down in Sheol/Hades. The fact that the rich man said that he was in torment in the flame and that he could see Abraham and Lazarus and have a conversation with him demonstrates that his spirit was conscious and aware. Everyone who dies in their sins ends up in the same place, in torment and flame, where they will be resurrected and stand before God at the great white throne judgment. Anyone's name that does not appear in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, conscious and aware. There is no scripture that states that at some point they are burned up and cease to exist. To believe or teach this would be a false teaching.

The wicked who die will be eternally separated from God and from the joy and the presence of the Lord, never to partake in those blessings.

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

So, where in scripture did you get the idea that after the wicked are tormented they are then destroyed? There is no such scripture.

The spirits of human beings are also eternal, which is what you are not understanding. Whether angel or human, both will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Death does not mean one ceases to existent. It is the existing state or condition of those who die in their sins in relation to God.

Consider the rich man and Lazarus. The scripture states that both Lazarus and the rich man died, yet their spirits where very much conscious and aware down in Sheol/Hades. The fact that the rich man said that he was in torment in the flame and that he could see Abraham and Lazarus and have a conversation with him demonstrates that his spirit was conscious and aware. Everyone who dies in their sins ends up in the same place, in torment and flame, where they will be resurrected and stand before God at the great white throne judgment. Anyone's name that does not appear in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire, conscious and aware. There is no scripture that states that at some point they are burned up and cease to exist. To believe or teach this would be a false teaching.

The wicked who die will be eternally separated from God and from the joy and the presence of the Lord, never to partake in those blessings.

There is no direct scriptures.
There some indirect scriptures.

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

Correct! It is a parable about we as believers who have been forgiven our great debt of sin against God. And since we have been forgiven our great debt, then we should forgive fellow believers when they want to be forgiven, which is far, far, less than our debt to God.

Parables use symbolism to represent the literal, such as in the parable in Matthew 13 where the seed = the word of God, the soil = different types of hearers, the wheat = the righteous, weeds = the wicked, the harvesters = the angels and the harvest = the end of the age, etc..

Likewise, here in the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king = God, the debt = the believers sin against God, the servant = a forgiven believer, his fellow servant = fellow believer. The meaning of the parable is that, being that God has forgiven us for our great debt of sin against Him, we should thankfully recognize that and be willing to forgive our brothers and sisters for any trespasses they may commit against us. However, if we have a spirit of unforgiveness, then Jesus says that the same thing will happen to us as to the man whose debt was reinstated to pay his original debt.

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Correct! It is a parable about we as believers who have been forgiven our great debt of sin against God. And since we have been forgiven our great debt, then we should forgive fellow believers when they want to be forgiven, which is far, far, less than our debt to God.

Parables use symbolism to represent the literal, such as in the parable in Matthew 13 where the seed = the word of God, the soil = different types of hearers, the wheat = the righteous, weeds = the wicked, the harvesters = the angels and the harvest = the end of the age, etc..

Likewise, here in the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king = God, the debt = the believers sin against God, the servant = a forgiven believer, his fellow servant = fellow believer. The meaning of the parable is that, being that God has forgiven us for our great debt of sin against Him, we should thankfully recognize that and be willing to forgive our brothers and sisters for any trespasses they may commit against us. However, if we have a spirit of unforgiveness, then Jesus says that the same thing will happen to us as to the man whose debt was reinstated to pay his original debt.

So your believer if did not forgive another will be tormented..likewise????eternally

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

Then, if there are no direct scriptures, how can you come to the conclusion that those who are thrown into the lake of fire are eventually burned up? That would be an assumption, pure conjecture. However, we do have scriptures that directly say that wicked will suffer everlasting fire, eternal punishment, that the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night. This is clearly stated in scripture over and over again. Consider this scripture again, which I posted before:

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

The word aionios translated as eternal, is used for both the wicked and the righteous. The word is defined as meaning 'a cycle of time, an age or having no ending.' Therefore, however you interpret the meaning of aionios/eternal must have the same meaning for both the wicked and the righteous. If you interpret it as meaning that the punishment of the wicked will by temporary, then eternal life for the righteous must be temporary. If you interpret the word to mean never ending life for the righteous, then it must also mean never ending existence for the wicked. The word has to have the same meaning for both the wicked and the righteous.

Now, instead of responding back with some apologetic, read and consider what I have written.

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

Read the parable for yourself and what Jesus says at the end of the parable.

Sin debt reinstated = 'In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.'

For believers with unforgiving spirits Jesus says: "That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

Outside of the parable, Jesus identifies that the servant in the parable represents a believer by saying "unless you forgive your brother," i.e. servant = believer

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

God can destroy both body and soul.
Mat 10:28 KJV And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I did not say they will not go in eternal fire.
They will still go there.
Mat 25:41 KJV Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Why do you think...it was added prepared for the devil and his angels???
Eternal fire was prepared for the devil and angels (heavenly being with eternal life)
That is why eternal fire...eternal punishment

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

Yes, but you continue to ignore my posts regarding the Greek word apollumi translated as 'destroy.' The word does not mean annihilation or extinction. You are reading the English word 'destroy' and applying the meaning of obliterated or annihilated, instead of the true meaning of the Greek word. This is why you keep coming back to this improper translation.

apollumi translated as 'Destroy' does not equal nonexistence. Until you accept the meaning of the word you will not understand this.

apollumi: completely cut off, complete loss of well being, eternal ruination

No, it is because everlasting fire, i.e. the lake of fire, was made for Satan and his angels. Likewise, any human being who dies without faith, will also suffer the same fate, which is conscious eternal existence in the lake of fire.

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

Using the true meaning of the word apollumi translated as destroy, this is what the scripture is saying:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can eternally ruin both soul and body in hell.

It is the translated English word 'destroy' that is causing you the problem.

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Greek:
1.The question there is there a meaning that says it can be anhillation?
2. Can the body be anhilated?

If we go with the other meaning as you said.
1. Then the wicked will have eternal body and eternal life in lake of fire.
2. Then theres no point God judge them according to their works.
Meaning.
If wicked A, stole 2 penny
And wicked B killed 6 millions jews
Then both of A and B. Will suffer degree of punishment.

You are protaying a unreasonable, unrighteous judge.

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

h1. [[G622]]

Original: *ἀπόλλυμι*

Transliteration: *apollumi*

Phonetic: *ap-ol'-loo-mee*

*Thayer Definition*:

# to destroy
## to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
## render useless
## to kill
## to declare that one must be put to death
## metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
## to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
# to destroy
## to lose

Origin: from [[d 575]] and the base of [[d 3639]]

TDNT entry: 07:34,7

Part(s) of speech: Verb

There are loads of meaning there...which one to apply...i have given two option of meaning.
The one that is eternal and the one that is to be totally put away..gone....abolish..

Consider also that the early words talks about killing the body...

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

No, the word cannot be interpreted to mean annihilation, which is why I listed the definition of the word right in the post so that you could read it. Here is the scriptural example that I gave you before:

"When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him. Suddenly a violent storm came up on the sea, so that the boat was engulfed by the waves; but Jesus was sleeping. And having approached, they awoke Him, saying, "Lord, save us, we are perishing!"

In the scripture above, the word 'perishing' is the same Greek word 'apollumi' translated in other scriptures as 'destroy.' The use of the word then does not mean that Jesus and His disciples were going to cease to exist or annihilated, but that they were going to drown. The words apollumi, apoleia and olethros, do not imply annihilation or extinction. apollumi is also the same word used regarding the parable of the wineskins:

"Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Once again, the word apollumi translated as ruined, perish or destroyed does not mean that the wine and wineskins would cease to exist or be annihilated, but would be ruined, i.e. no longer usable. This is exactly what is being said in the scripture "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The meaning is 'to devote or give over to eternal misery.' It means complete loss of well being, ruination.

The example that you gave disproves your claim, by stating that person (A) stole a penny and person (B) killed 6 million Jews, means that they must be judged according to their own sins. All of the unrighteous dead are each going to be held accountable for their sins. And since everyone has committed their own sins, then everyone must be judged accordingly. Everything that God does is a righteous legal process, including the official judgment of all the unrighteous dead at the great white throne judgment. Regarding this, Jesus said "But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken."

Once again, what the degrees of punishment are or how God performs the different degrees of punishment is unknown, for it is not listed in scripture. Just being inside the door is bad enough.

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

No, the word cannot be interpreted to mean annihilation, which is why I listed the definition of the word right in the post so that you could read it. Here is the scriptural example that I gave you before:

"When He got into the boat, His disciples followed Him. Suddenly a violent storm came up on the sea, so that the boat was engulfed by the waves; but Jesus was sleeping. And having approached, they awoke Him, saying, "Lord, save us, we are perishing!"

In the scripture above, the word 'perishing' is the same Greek word 'apollumi' translated in other scriptures as 'destroy.' The use of the word then does not mean that Jesus and His disciples were going to cease to exist or annihilated, but that they were going to drown. The words apollumi, apoleia and olethros, do not imply annihilation or extinction. apollumi is also the same word used regarding the parable of the wineskins:

"Neither do people pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved."

Once again, the word apollumi translated as ruined, perish or destroyed does not mean that the wine and wineskins would cease to exist or be annihilated, but would be ruined, i.e. no longer usable. This is exactly what is being said in the scripture "fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The meaning is 'to devote or give over to eternal misery.' It means complete loss of well being, ruination.

The example that you gave disproves your claim, by stating that person (A) stole a penny and person (B) killed 6 million Jews, means that they must be judged according to their own sins. All of the unrighteous dead are each going to be held accountable for their sins. And since everyone has committed their own sins, then everyone must be judged accordingly. Everything that God does is a righteous legal process, including the official judgment of all the unrighteous dead at the great white throne judgment. Regarding this, Jesus said "But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken."

Once again, what the degrees of punishment are or how God performs the different degrees of punishment is unknown, for it is not listed in scripture. Just being inside the door is bad enough.

It means complete loss.
Living with body and soul in lake of fire is not complete loss...

You know why it didnt translate destroy in the verses you quoted. Because the context itself does not warrant complete loss.

You said that the degree of punishment is unknown, yet your doctrine teaches both A and B will suffer the same degree of punishment.
Eterniry in lake of fire.

What can you find in scriptures will be consider as greater punishment for wicked B?

Ahwatukee · Jan 29, 2020

watcher2013 said:

Complete loss of well being, ruination. The meaning is that the person who is thrown into the lake of fire suffers complete loss of well being while existing. Completely and eternally ruined.

No, I did not say 'both A and B will suffer the same degree of punishment. What I did say was "Once again, what the degrees of punishment are or how God performs the different degrees of punishment is unknown, for it is not listed in scripture. If you want proof of what I said, see the last line of post #116.

Everyone who ends up in the lake of fire will be eternally and completely ruined. How God performs different levels of punishment within the lake of fire, I do not know.

watcher2013 · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

Complete loss of well being, ruination. The meaning is that the person who is thrown into the lake of fire suffers complete loss of well being while existing. Completely and eternally ruined.

No, I did not say 'both A and B will suffer the same degree of punishment. What I did say was "Once again, what the degrees of punishment are or how God performs the different degrees of punishment is unknown, for it is not listed in scripture. If you want proof of what I said, see the last line of post #116.

Everyone who ends up in the lake of fire will be eternally and completely ruined. How God performs different levels of punishment within the lake of fire, I do not know.

Since u do not know the degree...is there a possibility that God will totally anhilate a bodyband soul?

RevelationMan · Jan 29, 2020

Ahwatukee said:

I think the persons thrown into the lake of fire will be soulless creatures that look like human beings. These are creatures that have a human body but no soul. So it's like burning a piece of wood. In any case these creatures are like wood and stubble as scripture tells us.

Life after death.

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