Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today
- Thread starter Dave-L
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Reports of witnessing miracles isn't hearsay. Irenaeus wrote of his church raising the dead and believed all churches should be able to do so.
Interestingly, he considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies.
The fact is that the Bible teaches that the Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles as He wills. You have a big problem with the sovereignty of God in your thinking, not accepting it, as far as gifts are concerned. You seem to think you can limit God to only doing things that follow patterns you see in scriptures that you accept, while rejecting other patterns and direct doctrinal teaching of scripture.
God was never bound to only do miracles through the hands of the apostles or those on whom they laid their hands. The 12 apostles never laid hands on Moses or Elijah. There were miracle workers doing miracles in Jesus name before the ascension, and Christ corrected the apostles for forbidding them from doing so.
Interestingly, he considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies.
The fact is that the Bible teaches that the Spirit gives the gift of the working of miracles as He wills. You have a big problem with the sovereignty of God in your thinking, not accepting it, as far as gifts are concerned. You seem to think you can limit God to only doing things that follow patterns you see in scriptures that you accept, while rejecting other patterns and direct doctrinal teaching of scripture.
God was never bound to only do miracles through the hands of the apostles or those on whom they laid their hands. The 12 apostles never laid hands on Moses or Elijah. There were miracle workers doing miracles in Jesus name before the ascension, and Christ corrected the apostles for forbidding them from doing so.
Have you read the parts about raising the dead btw?
There are plenty of testimonies of eye witnesses including those who were healed in various crusades. You seem to be the type who would dismiss such things out of hand.
I went to a Christian affiliated with my school affiliated with my church and nearly all the students attended there. There was a girl with visibly severely crossed eyes who wore 'coke bottle glasses' that looked odd because they magnified her eyes. She was obviously visually impaired. She was healed after an evangelist laid hands on her. I saw her normal eyes without glasses after the healing and she told me what happened after I asked her in the morning before school started.
There are also numerous eye witness testimonies, some with two or three witnesses. CBN puts interviews like this together. So does Sid Roth though he puts all kinds of stuff on his show.
Randy Clark's dissertation was on back healings. His committee included professors from top universities including medical. Nit sure if has been published in a peer reviewed journal. I recall seeing an abstract for a peer reviewed journal article on healings of blind or deaf in Mozambique
Amie Semple McPherson had a colorful life. But the San Diego reporters wrote about real healings they saw.
Delia Knox had a news piece I saw online, the gospel singer in a wheelchair. She got out after many years, over a decade, at the laying on of hands. Hers was a little gradual. But the news documented her returning to her parents house in Ohio. The mayor greeted her, too. This healing is well documented. You can see video of it.
There is lots of evidence out there it is disingenuous to say it does not exist as if you knew anything about it and had researched it. Especially since scripture contradicts your argument that the baptism of the Spirit or gifts were exclusively mediated through the hands of the apostles.
You seem to take the same approach to miracles that some atheists take toward the existence of God.
There are plenty of testimonies of eye witnesses including those who were healed in various crusades. You seem to be the type who would dismiss such things out of hand.
I went to a Christian affiliated with my school affiliated with my church and nearly all the students attended there. There was a girl with visibly severely crossed eyes who wore 'coke bottle glasses' that looked odd because they magnified her eyes. She was obviously visually impaired. She was healed after an evangelist laid hands on her. I saw her normal eyes without glasses after the healing and she told me what happened after I asked her in the morning before school started.
There are also numerous eye witness testimonies, some with two or three witnesses. CBN puts interviews like this together. So does Sid Roth though he puts all kinds of stuff on his show.
Randy Clark's dissertation was on back healings. His committee included professors from top universities including medical. Nit sure if has been published in a peer reviewed journal. I recall seeing an abstract for a peer reviewed journal article on healings of blind or deaf in Mozambique
Amie Semple McPherson had a colorful life. But the San Diego reporters wrote about real healings they saw.
Delia Knox had a news piece I saw online, the gospel singer in a wheelchair. She got out after many years, over a decade, at the laying on of hands. Hers was a little gradual. But the news documented her returning to her parents house in Ohio. The mayor greeted her, too. This healing is well documented. You can see video of it.
There is lots of evidence out there it is disingenuous to say it does not exist as if you knew anything about it and had researched it. Especially since scripture contradicts your argument that the baptism of the Spirit or gifts were exclusively mediated through the hands of the apostles.
You seem to take the same approach to miracles that some atheists take toward the existence of God.
No such thing as a "sign gift" to confirm the human touch . Signs are for those who rebel. Prophecy, God's word that brings eternal life for those who believe.
Miracles are simply miracles nothing more and nothing less . God is God nothing less. Jesus said. . marvel not at the greatest miracle born again .. God who is not served or does heal by human hands. He being of one mind and always doing whatsoever his soul desires he therefore performs that which he appoints to us. He has no needs but satisfies all his heart desires . He performs miracles on the just and those not justifier by His faith ..
The laying on of hands is simply a old testament ceremonial law use as a shadow, Folding one hands or bowing ones head provides the same. . a request he might have mercy.
Miracles are simply miracles nothing more and nothing less . God is God nothing less. Jesus said. . marvel not at the greatest miracle born again .. God who is not served or does heal by human hands. He being of one mind and always doing whatsoever his soul desires he therefore performs that which he appoints to us. He has no needs but satisfies all his heart desires . He performs miracles on the just and those not justifier by His faith ..
The laying on of hands is simply a old testament ceremonial law use as a shadow, Folding one hands or bowing ones head provides the same. . a request he might have mercy.
How is that possible in light of verses such as Eph 2:2 and 1Co 5:5?
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the LORD.
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the LORD.
What does that have to do with the topic?
In addition to the twelve apostles, there were post-ascension apostles in the first century like Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, etc. Paul implicitely acknowledges he was not one of the twelve in I Corinthians 15 where he writes that Jesus appeared to the twelve before appearing to him. He did not say the eleven.
In addition to the twelve apostles, there were post-ascension apostles in the first century like Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, etc. Paul implicitely acknowledges he was not one of the twelve in I Corinthians 15 where he writes that Jesus appeared to the twelve before appearing to him. He did not say the eleven.
I avoid arguing against cessation of spiritual gifts with amils from revelation. There is not enough common ground.
The fact remains that the Bible demonstrates God has power to work miracles through people and He never says that He will not do so. Cessationists who argue for cessation of miracles presume to say what God will not do based on scripture. This is presumptuous and demonstrates a problem accepting God's sovereignty.
The Bible also teaches the Spirit gifts members of the body of Christ to heal and to work miracles as He wills. It is up to the Spirit of God, and these men have no right to try to infringe upon or limit the Spirit's decision.
The fact remains that the Bible demonstrates God has power to work miracles through people and He never says that He will not do so. Cessationists who argue for cessation of miracles presume to say what God will not do based on scripture. This is presumptuous and demonstrates a problem accepting God's sovereignty.
The Bible also teaches the Spirit gifts members of the body of Christ to heal and to work miracles as He wills. It is up to the Spirit of God, and these men have no right to try to infringe upon or limit the Spirit's decision.