What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[PlainWord]

Eusabius was an admirer of Oigen Origen went into hiding in the home of Juliana the Virgin who was a student of Ebionite leader Symmachus,, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen . The Ebonites(same ones from Pella) rejected Paul as an Apostle as an apostate from the law,,, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

Now there would be very few books in the New Testament if refer to the opinions of the Ebionites, Eusabius would there not? I think we should leave 2nd Peter and the letters of Paul as they are and see Eusabius and the Ebionites opinions as opinions.

Eusebius was a big fan of Paul as we see below.

5. Paul’s fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed.593 It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews,594 saying that it is disputed 595 by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place

 

[Denise1964]

I want to add something here. I don't know exactly when the rapture is in relation to everything else that goes on but I believe it's in Revelation 16 and here's why. Just hear me out.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

They are like frogs but aren't frogs.. look like frogs. Don't the gray aliens that people keep drawing pictures of look like a walking frog? Think about it. No hair, no nose, no lips, wrap around big eyes, long spindly arms and legs and catches it's prey 'with it's tongue'. (devils use deception) They are like frogs. Probably John on the isle of Patmos hadn't heard of aliens but we know aliens indeed look like frogs. Then the next verse he says plainly what they are. Why would he say they are like frogs and then make a point to say what they REALLY are? Because people will think they are something else.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

They are fallen angels - spirits of devils - imo pretending to be aliens and they are here to WORK MIRICLES - super natural power like almost every single Hollywood movie now grooming everybody to accept supernatural powers. These frog looking aliens will have it and the population has already been primed to accept it and celebrate it!! They go out to all the world leaders to convince them to fight against GOD ALMIGHTY!!! Now why would aliens want to do that? Because they aren't aliens.

Now here is the part that pertains to this thread...

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
This is the point when the rapture happens. The church is holding these things back. But when the church is gone the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. Yes you can still get saved but the church - the body of Christ is gone.

Ok so here is my thing.. 1. You can be a Christian and get left behind. Because the scripture doesn't say 'all who are Christians .. don't worry about it... piece of cake'. It says watch and keep your garments. Our garments are the robes of righteousness Christ gave to us when He exchanged our unrighteousness for His righteousness. We walk in HIS PRIESTLY robes because we are bought with His blood.
But if you don't keep your garments... you'll get left behind
Because when all the Christians disappear everyone is going to know you said you were a Christian and here you still are and you will be like naked before them and ashamed.
This is the rapture... verse 15
And now even mainstream cable news is talking about UFO's being acknowledged by our military to the point we have our own space force to protect us because they aren't yet disclosing what it is... just craft appear and move in ways they can't explain.

That's not craft and those are not aliens and we are nearing the end of this age quick fast and in a hurry.

We also know Christians can get left behind because the parable of the 5 foolish virgins and the 5 wise. There is only one way to be virginal to sin and that is through the blood of Jesus. That parable is a picture of the church.
And Jesus Himself said in
Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
I don't remember any other time Jesus said pray to be found worthy to escape. There is only one escape and that's the rapture when we get harpazo - snatched away

 

[Denise1964]

I want to add something here. I don't know exactly when the rapture is in relation to everything else that goes on but I believe it's in Revelation 16 and here's why. Just hear me out.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

They are like frogs but aren't frogs.. look like frogs. Don't the gray aliens that people keep drawing pictures of look like a walking frog? Think about it. No hair, no nose, no lips, wrap around big eyes, long spindly arms and legs and catches it's prey 'with it's tongue'. (devils use deception) They are like frogs. Probably John on the isle of Patmos hadn't heard of aliens but we know aliens indeed look like frogs. Then the next verse he says plainly what they are. Why would he say they are like frogs and then make a point to say what they REALLY are? Because people will think they are something else.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

They are fallen angels - spirits of devils - imo pretending to be aliens and they are here to WORK MIRICLES - super natural power like almost every single Hollywood movie now grooming everybody to accept supernatural powers. These frog looking aliens will have it and the population has already been primed to accept it and celebrate it!! They go out to all the world leaders to convince them to fight against GOD ALMIGHTY!!! Now why would aliens want to do that? Because they aren't aliens.

Now here is the part that pertains to this thread...

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
This is the point when the rapture happens. The church is holding these things back. But when the church is gone the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. Yes you can still get saved but the church - the body of Christ is gone.

Ok so here is my thing.. 1. You can be a Christian and get left behind. Because the scripture doesn't say 'all who are Christians .. don't worry about it... piece of cake'. It says watch and keep your garments. Our garments are the robes of righteousness Christ gave to us when He exchanged our unrighteousness for His righteousness. We walk in HIS PRIESTLY robes because we are bought with His blood.
But if you don't keep your garments... you'll get left behind
Because when all the Christians disappear everyone is going to know you said you were a Christian and here you still are and you will be like naked before them and ashamed.
This is the rapture... verse 15
And now even mainstream cable news is talking about UFO's being acknowledged by our military to the point we have our own space force to protect us because they aren't yet disclosing what it is... just craft appear and move in ways they can't explain.

That's not craft and those are not aliens and we are nearing the end of this age quick fast and in a hurry.

We also know Christians can get left behind because the parable of the 5 foolish virgins and the 5 wise. There is only one way to be virginal to sin and that is through the blood of Jesus. That parable is a picture of the church.
And Jesus Himself said in
Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
I don't remember any other time Jesus said pray to be found worthy to escape. There is only one escape and that's the rapture when we get harpazo - snatched away

 

[Denise1964]

I want to add something here. I don't know exactly when the rapture is in relation to everything else that goes on but I believe it's in Revelation 16 and here's why. Just hear me out.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

They are like frogs but aren't frogs.. look like frogs. Don't the gray aliens that people keep drawing pictures of look like a walking frog? Think about it. No hair, no nose, no lips, wrap around big eyes, long spindly arms and legs and catches it's prey 'with it's tongue'. (devils use deception) They are like frogs. Probably John on the isle of Patmos hadn't heard of aliens but we know aliens indeed look like frogs. Then the next verse he says plainly what they are. Why would he say they are like frogs and then make a point to say what they REALLY are? Because people will think they are something else.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

They are fallen angels - spirits of devils - imo pretending to be aliens and they are here to WORK MIRICLES - super natural power like almost every single Hollywood movie now grooming everybody to accept supernatural powers. These frog looking aliens will have it and the population has already been primed to accept it and celebrate it!! They go out to all the world leaders to convince them to fight against GOD ALMIGHTY!!! Now why would aliens want to do that? Because they aren't aliens.

Now here is the part that pertains to this thread...

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
This is the point when the rapture happens. The church is holding these things back. But when the church is gone the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way. Yes you can still get saved but the church - the body of Christ is gone.

Ok so here is my thing.. 1. You can be a Christian and get left behind. Because the scripture doesn't say 'all who are Christians .. don't worry about it... piece of cake'. It says watch and keep your garments. Our garments are the robes of righteousness Christ gave to us when He exchanged our unrighteousness for His righteousness. We walk in HIS PRIESTLY robes because we are bought with His blood.
But if you don't keep your garments... you'll get left behind
Because when all the Christians disappear everyone is going to know you said you were a Christian and here you still are and you will be like naked before them and ashamed.
This is the rapture... verse 15
And now even mainstream cable news is talking about UFO's being acknowledged by our military to the point we have our own space force to protect us because they aren't yet disclosing what it is... just craft appear and move in ways they can't explain.

That's not craft and those are not aliens and we are nearing the end of this age quick fast and in a hurry.

We also know Christians can get left behind because the parable of the 5 foolish virgins and the 5 wise. There is only one way to be virginal to sin and that is through the blood of Jesus. That parable is a picture of the church.
And Jesus Himself said in
Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
I don't remember any other time Jesus said pray to be found worthy to escape. There is only one escape and that's the rapture when we get harpazo - snatched away

Sorry I'm new and didn't realize I could add these videos to the original one
I believe this is a big clue .. when they come down we go up!! Up with Jesus of course not up with aliens

 

[GaryA]

Thanks, Andy!

 

[iamsoandso]

Eusebius was a big fan of Paul as we see below.

5. Paul’s fourteen epistles are well known and undisputed.593 It is not indeed right to overlook the fact that some have rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews,594 saying that it is disputed 595 by the church of Rome, on the ground that it was not written by Paul. But what has been said concerning this epistle by those who lived before our time I shall quote in the proper place

That's not how I was meaning that, lol. What I am meaning is that it doesn't make sense to pit any of these men's opinions against one another. They themselves did not agree which letters were held more authentic than the other I think is what Eusabius was stating. Why I think that is some Churches quoted from different letters as if authentic where others did not see it that way.

As an example Clement and Origen of Alexandria made quotes from the epistle of Barnabas several times while others did not see it as authentic. I think that this is the same of letters before the NT times also (Jubilees,1 Enoch,ect.) and so I think Eusabius was not stating which to him were authentic but as an historian stating the different views that the Church's had in their uses.

There was Jesus and the 12 knew him as him witnesses. There were the Apostolic Fathers who knew the Apostles and witnessed their testament of this. And there are the ones who heard as witnesses those Apostolic Fathers. After that point in time they began to disagree in the many things that we discuss today and so I would not think it any more than opinion past that point.

The issue is that Jesus chose the 12, then the 12 chose those who they saw as understanding this and within the next few passing's of the Bishopric they no longer agreed. Therefore I look close at the Apostolic Fathers and who they were confident with and do not wander farther past.

 

[PlainWord]

That's not how I was meaning that, lol. What I am meaning is that it doesn't make sense to pit any of these men's opinions against one another. They themselves did not agree which letters were held more authentic than the other I think is what Eusabius was stating. Why I think that is some Churches quoted from different letters as if authentic where others did not see it that way.

As an example Clement and Origen of Alexandria made quotes from the epistle of Barnabas several times while others did not see it as authentic. I think that this is the same of letters before the NT times also (Jubilees,1 Enoch,ect.) and so I think Eusabius was not stating which to him were authentic but as an historian stating the different views that the Church's had in their uses.

There was Jesus and the 12 knew him as him witnesses. There were the Apostolic Fathers who knew the Apostles and witnessed their testament of this. And there are the ones who heard as witnesses those Apostolic Fathers. After that point in time they began to disagree in the many things that we discuss today and so I would not think it any more than opinion past that point.

The issue is that Jesus chose the 12, then the 12 chose those who they saw as understanding this and within the next few passing's of the Bishopric they no longer agreed. Therefore I look close at the Apostolic Fathers and who they were confident with and do not wander farther past.

I generally agree with your response. Thank you. However, besides the 12, Jesus sent out 70. Eusebius names several of the 70 quoting from the Bible where some of their names are found.

 

[Dave-L]

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.” John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148).

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either." Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm

(This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

 

[PlainWord]

Denise,

You are correct in that the frogs mentioned in Rev 16 are evil spirits. The 7 bowls of Rev 16 are identical to 7 of the plagues that hit Egypt. We can go over the fulfillment of each if you like? But you were discussing the frogs so let us start with them.

If you recall, Jerusalem was in an unholy alliance with Rome back in Jesus' day and until it was destroyed in 70 AD. There were two main factions in the city. 1) The religious and wealthy elite class which derived their power and influence from their alliance with Rome. They claimed, "We have no King but Caesar," this they said as they rejected Christ (John 19:15). They saw Rome as their friends and protectors from the second group. 2) The Zealots. They wanted independence from Rome. They wished to form their own government and throw Rome out of their country. The Zealots started a rebellion in 66 AD (against the wishes of the first group) and at the same time, a brutal civil war throughout Israel.

Upon hearing the news of the revolt, Nero sent his top general, Vespasian, to Palestine to put down the revolt. After Nero’s death, Vespasian postponed his assault on Israel and contemplated the risk inherent in ascending to the throne. During this time of uncertainty, Rome was torn by civil war resulting in the deaths of three Caesars. During this tumultuous year described by John in Rev 16:10, many people prophesied that Vespasian would become emperor. In addition, an ancient Jewish prophecy also bolstered his hope: Out of Judea would come the future king of the world. Stationed in Israel at the time, Vespasian believed himself to be the fulfillment of this age-old prophecy. Immediately after Vespasian’s rise to power, the war in Israel which paused sometime after Nero’s death immediately resumed by Vespasian’s command. Thus these signs and miracles performed by the spirits of demons in vs. 13 and 14 pointing to Vespasian’s future rule indirectly guaranteed that the war in v. 14 would resume.

In the same way that the real Egypt was afflicted with a plague of frogs during the exodus, spiritual Egypt, representing Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), was afflicted with spiritual frogs. These frogs are the spirits of demons performing miracles to gather together the kings for battle. 2 Thes 2:9 says, “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.”

After the civil war following Nero’s death described in the fifth plague, Vespasian seized control of the empire and restored the peace. Upon claiming the throne, Vespasian spent some time in Alexandria before making his triumphal entry into Rome. At this time, the time of the “coming of the lawless one,” in explicit fulfillment of 2 Thes 2:9 and Rev 16:14, Tacitus says, "In the course of the months which Vespasian spent at Alexandria, waiting for the regular season of summer winds when the sea could be relied upon, [so he could sail to Rome to assume his seat as emperor] many miracles occurred.”(Tacitus The Histories 4.81). According to the Roman historians Tacitus and Cassius Dio during Vespasian’s stay in Alexandria, a blind man and a man with a withered hand fell at the emperor’s feet begging to be healed. They claimed to have been told to do so by the god Serapis. Then according to these historians, Vespasian spit on the eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men.

These were, by no means, the only miracles that had occurred from the death of Nero until Vespasian’s ascension, the time of the sixth plague. During this period, called the year of the four Caesars, there were a multitude of recorded signs and miracles. Describing the signs preceding Nero’s death, Cassius Dio writes:

And little did he [Nero] reck that both sets of doors, those of the mausoleum of Augustus and those of his own bedchamber, opened of their own accord on one and the same night, or that in the Alban territory it rained so much blood that rivers of it flowed over the land (Cassius Dio Roman History 63.26).

At the entrance to the Capitol, it was said, the reins of the chariot in which Victory rides had slipped from her grasp; an apparition of superhuman size had suddenly emerged from the Chapel of Juno; on a sunny, windless day the statue of Julius Caesar on the Tiber Island had turned round so as to face east instead of west [symbolizing the fact that Vespasian who was in Judea to the east would supplant Vitellius from the west]; an ox had spoken in Etruria; there had been monstrous animal births and numerous signs and wonders (Tacitus The Histories 1.86).

Also, ships full of weapons under the guidance of no human hand came to anchor off the coast of Spain. And a mule brought forth young, an event which, as had been foretold, was to be a sign to him of the supreme power. Again, the hair of a boy who was offering a sacrifice turned white, whereupon the seers declared that the sovereignty held by the younger man [Galba’s predecessor, Nero] should be transferred to the old age of Galba (Cassius Dio Roman History 64.1). Galba was the governor of Spain. So when these ships inexplicably arrived with weapons, it was an unmistakable sign to Galba that he should via for control over the empire, which cost him his life.

Many evil omens occurred. A comet was seen, and the moon, contrary to precedent, appeared to suffer two eclipses, being obscured on the fourth and on the seventh day. Also people saw two suns at once, one in the west weak and pale, and one in the east brilliant and powerful. On the Capitol many huge footprints were seen, presumably of some spirits that had descended from it. The soldiers who slept there on the night in question said that the temple of Jupiter had opened of itself with great clangor and that some of the guards had been so terrified that they fainted. At the same time that this happened Vespasian, who was engaged in warfare with the Jews, learned of the rebellion of Vitellis and of Otho and was deliberating what he should do. (Cassius Dio Roman History 65.8). When the moon is eclipsed it turns red. One example of a lunar eclipse is found in Revelation 6:12. The miracle of the two suns, like the moving of the statue of Julius Caesar in the footnote above, also appear to point to Vespasian’s defeat of Vitellius.

Those were crazy times back then, between 66-70 AD. There were so many more strange and supernatural disturbances, too many to list so let's get back to what the purpose of spirits of the 3 frogs. They were to gather the kings of the earth to Armageddon. The word Armageddon, Har-Mageddon, is commonly supposed to represent the Mountain of Megiddo better known as Mt. Carmel. The Roman kings, generals and their armies gathered in the coastal city of Caesarea immediately before marching south to attack Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Caesarea is about eight miles east of Mt. Carmel, and Mt. Carmel is clearly visible from Caearea. Through this region ran a highway where goods were traded between Egypt, Asia Minor and the Middle East. This highway passed near Caesarea and continued northeast along the edge of Mt. Carmel through the Valley of Jezreel. Given the close proximity of the city of Caesarea and the valley of Megiddo, perhaps the mountain of Megiddo is the city of Caesarea itself? After all mountains often denote cities in the Bible. This verse indicates that the kings would meet at Armageddon though it is important to notice that no explicit mention is made in this verse or elsewhere of a battle at Mt. Megiddo itself. Thus, this is where the troops gathered, NOT WHERE THE BATTLE WAS TO TAKE PLACE!!

The term Armageddon must be derived from the Hebrew language, not a Greek transliteration. The Har- of Har-Mageddon is the Hebrew word for mountain. Thus the most likely meaning of Armageddon is “Mountain of Troops” or “Mountain of [mustering] Troops.” In light of this etymological evidence, many Christian scholars have now dismissed the notion of a battle at Mt. Megiddo in favor of a battle at Jerusalem. This belief is becoming increasingly more and more common even among dispensationalists. The fact that Jerusalem, called many things throughout this prophetic series of visions, is given the title, Babylon, is not surprising since it is at Jerusalem that the Roman army and the remaining Jewish rebels converged to face one another during the climax of the Jewish War.

 

[PlainWord]

“The fact is that neither posttribulalionism nor pretribulationisim is an explicit teaching of Scripture. The Bible does not in so many words state either.” John Walvoord in his book called The Rapture Question (Findlay, OH:1957, p.148).

"One objection to the pre-Tribulation Rapture is that not one passage of Scripture teaches the two aspects of His Second Coming separated by the Tribulation. This is true. But then, no one passage teaches a post-trib or mid-trib Rapture, either." Tim LaHaye, No Fear of the Storm

(This book was later republished as Rapture Under Attack). “That’s Not in the Bible” Gary DeMar

Tim LaHaye is the last person anyone should listen to on this subject. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

The Great Tribulation was the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This was widely understood by the early church.

 

[Dave-L]

Tim LaHaye is the last person anyone should listen to on this subject. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

The Great Tribulation was the siege and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This was widely understood by the early church.

What about Walvoord? Do you have any direct quotes from scripture of a "pre-trib" rapture?

 

[PlainWord]

What about Walvoord? Do you have any direct quotes from scripture of a "pre-trib" rapture?

The so-called "rapture" is perhaps the most fundamentally misunderstood concept in the whole Bible. No massive group of living persons are going to be snatched off the planet at the same time!! I know it happened to Elijah and Enoch, but we have no prediction of it happening again. Heb 9:27 makes this point abundantly clear. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." This verse is quoted by dozens of my forefathers who died before 1900 in their Last Will and Testaments. They all understood prior to dying that they would face death.

Thessalonians 4:15-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 are best understood in the traditional way–as descriptions of the resurrection, not rapture. The rapture is a relatively new Christian doctrine made popular especially in American evangelical circles. Most Christians living in a culture where the rapture is deeply engraved in church teaching might see these verses as irrefutable proof of this doctrine. However, for almost two thousand years most Christians understood that these verses referred to the resurrection of the dead.

The resurrection of the just occurred near the end of the reign of Nero who witnessed it. As construction of the canal began, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.” Recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground, the sound of a trumpet was heard. The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised literally fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable. . . .”

The saints who had been locked up in Hades/Sheol were set free by Christ who "held the key to Death and Hades." In 1 Thes 4, they are taken first. For those of us who out-lived the resurrection, we immediately are "caught up" or raptured to heaven when we die. There is a lot more that could be said about this but that's the short of it and that's how Christians for 1,800 years understood it. Today when we believers die, we immediately go to heaven as countless witnesses of Near Death Experiences have claimed.

 

[garee]

The so-called "rapture" is perhaps the most fundamentally misunderstood concept in the whole Bible. No massive group of living persons are going to be snatched off the planet at the same time!! I know it happened to Elijah and Enoch, but we have no prediction of it happening again. Heb 9:27 makes this point abundantly clear. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." This verse is quoted by dozens of my forefathers who died before 1900 in their Last Will and Testaments. They all understood prior to dying that they would face death.

Thessalonians 4:15-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 are best understood in the traditional way–as descriptions of the resurrection, not rapture. The rapture is a relatively new Christian doctrine made popular especially in American evangelical circles. Most Christians living in a culture where the rapture is deeply engraved in church teaching might see these verses as irrefutable proof of this doctrine. However, for almost two thousand years most Christians understood that these verses referred to the resurrection of the dead.

The resurrection of the just occurred near the end of the reign of Nero who witnessed it. As construction of the canal began, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.” Recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground, the sound of a trumpet was heard. The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised literally fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable. . . .”

The saints who had been locked up in Hades/Sheol were set free by Christ who "held the key to Death and Hades." In 1 Thes 4, they are taken first. For those of us who out-lived the resurrection, we immediately are "caught up" or raptured to heaven when we die. There is a lot more that could be said about this but that's the short of it and that's how Christians for 1,800 years understood it. Today when we believers die, we immediately go to heaven as countless witnesses of Near Death Experiences have claimed.

The ressurection or rapture which is another word for resurrection (the drawing up). .It is according to the witness of God which was spoken of in Ezekiel 37. It began to begin to be fulfilled when Christ said it was finished. It was accompanied by two observable signs .The rent veil and earth quake .

Ezekiel 37:12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

The fulfilment of that promise came as the Son of man, Jesus working with the father finished the work of salvation .

Matthew 27:51-53 King JamesAnd, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The souls of the born again saints (unseen) entered the land of the heavenly Israel, called Zion. And therefore witnessed by many angels that had not left the first place of habitation. Its gate will remain open until the last day when those reigning with Christ on earth in their new born again spirits will rise up and meet the saints that are dead asleep .

The idea of some fabricated witness of men. Blood coming from the ground, and sounds of trumpets, groans and bellowing's heard, and many phantoms appeared.. . is simply Hollywood drama stuff.

The witness of God is always greater than the fabrications of men that seek after outward signs as wonderments. They would hope worshipping fallen messengers through the things "not seen" that are puffed up by their own fleshly minds. .

Some people enjoy acting as if they are humble and love to worship angels. They always talk about the visions they have seen. Don’t listen to them when they say you are wrong because you don’t do these things. It is so foolish for them to feel such pride, because it is all based on their own human ideas. Colossians 2:18

Jesus when faced with the witness of men (his own) in Mathew 4 having what some call out of the body experience which is not out of the body but rather lying spirits bringing into the fleshly mind illusions of the heart.

Jesus whose meat was to the will of the father simply moved the holy Spirit declared prophecy as the father gave him words, all three times again and again .As it is written . The word it is the exclusive source of the father in heaven . No outward sigh other than the veil and the earthquake are needed to prove God to be true and the witness of men a lie.

We can understand as he gives us his unseen faith that works in us, as it worked in the Son of man Jesus. Making it after the things seen the temporal simply brings the foolishness of pride based on human experience.(Colossians 2:18)

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

The Amil (no literalizing the signified language) as a position works the best. Nothing has to be added like time periods called dispensations. Or people disappearing in the middle of flight. That would be a act of terrorism

 

[Denise1964]

Denise,

You are correct in that the frogs mentioned in Rev 16 are evil spirits. The 7 bowls of Rev 16 are identical to 7 of the plagues that hit Egypt. We can go over the fulfillment of each if you like? But you were discussing the frogs so let us start with them.

If you recall, Jerusalem was in an unholy alliance with Rome back in Jesus' day and until it was destroyed in 70 AD. There were two main factions in the city. 1) The religious and wealthy elite class which derived their power and influence from their alliance with Rome. They claimed, "We have no King but Caesar," this they said as they rejected Christ (John 19:15). They saw Rome as their friends and protectors from the second group. 2) The Zealots. They wanted independence from Rome. They wished to form their own government and throw Rome out of their country. The Zealots started a rebellion in 66 AD (against the wishes of the first group) and at the same time, a brutal civil war throughout Israel.

Upon hearing the news of the revolt, Nero sent his top general, Vespasian, to Palestine to put down the revolt. After Nero’s death, Vespasian postponed his assault on Israel and contemplated the risk inherent in ascending to the throne. During this time of uncertainty, Rome was torn by civil war resulting in the deaths of three Caesars. During this tumultuous year described by John in Rev 16:10, many people prophesied that Vespasian would become emperor. In addition, an ancient Jewish prophecy also bolstered his hope: Out of Judea would come the future king of the world. Stationed in Israel at the time, Vespasian believed himself to be the fulfillment of this age-old prophecy. Immediately after Vespasian’s rise to power, the war in Israel which paused sometime after Nero’s death immediately resumed by Vespasian’s command. Thus these signs and miracles performed by the spirits of demons in vs. 13 and 14 pointing to Vespasian’s future rule indirectly guaranteed that the war in v. 14 would resume.

In the same way that the real Egypt was afflicted with a plague of frogs during the exodus, spiritual Egypt, representing Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), was afflicted with spiritual frogs. These frogs are the spirits of demons performing miracles to gather together the kings for battle. 2 Thes 2:9 says, “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.”

After the civil war following Nero’s death described in the fifth plague, Vespasian seized control of the empire and restored the peace. Upon claiming the throne, Vespasian spent some time in Alexandria before making his triumphal entry into Rome. At this time, the time of the “coming of the lawless one,” in explicit fulfillment of 2 Thes 2:9 and Rev 16:14, Tacitus says, "In the course of the months which Vespasian spent at Alexandria, waiting for the regular season of summer winds when the sea could be relied upon, [so he could sail to Rome to assume his seat as emperor] many miracles occurred.”(Tacitus The Histories 4.81). According to the Roman historians Tacitus and Cassius Dio during Vespasian’s stay in Alexandria, a blind man and a man with a withered hand fell at the emperor’s feet begging to be healed. They claimed to have been told to do so by the god Serapis. Then according to these historians, Vespasian spit on the eyes of the blind man and stepped on the hand of the cripple, healing both men.

These were, by no means, the only miracles that had occurred from the death of Nero until Vespasian’s ascension, the time of the sixth plague. During this period, called the year of the four Caesars, there were a multitude of recorded signs and miracles. Describing the signs preceding Nero’s death, Cassius Dio writes:

And little did he [Nero] reck that both sets of doors, those of the mausoleum of Augustus and those of his own bedchamber, opened of their own accord on one and the same night, or that in the Alban territory it rained so much blood that rivers of it flowed over the land (Cassius Dio Roman History 63.26).

At the entrance to the Capitol, it was said, the reins of the chariot in which Victory rides had slipped from her grasp; an apparition of superhuman size had suddenly emerged from the Chapel of Juno; on a sunny, windless day the statue of Julius Caesar on the Tiber Island had turned round so as to face east instead of west [symbolizing the fact that Vespasian who was in Judea to the east would supplant Vitellius from the west]; an ox had spoken in Etruria; there had been monstrous animal births and numerous signs and wonders (Tacitus The Histories 1.86).

Also, ships full of weapons under the guidance of no human hand came to anchor off the coast of Spain. And a mule brought forth young, an event which, as had been foretold, was to be a sign to him of the supreme power. Again, the hair of a boy who was offering a sacrifice turned white, whereupon the seers declared that the sovereignty held by the younger man [Galba’s predecessor, Nero] should be transferred to the old age of Galba (Cassius Dio Roman History 64.1). Galba was the governor of Spain. So when these ships inexplicably arrived with weapons, it was an unmistakable sign to Galba that he should via for control over the empire, which cost him his life.

Many evil omens occurred. A comet was seen, and the moon, contrary to precedent, appeared to suffer two eclipses, being obscured on the fourth and on the seventh day. Also people saw two suns at once, one in the west weak and pale, and one in the east brilliant and powerful. On the Capitol many huge footprints were seen, presumably of some spirits that had descended from it. The soldiers who slept there on the night in question said that the temple of Jupiter had opened of itself with great clangor and that some of the guards had been so terrified that they fainted. At the same time that this happened Vespasian, who was engaged in warfare with the Jews, learned of the rebellion of Vitellis and of Otho and was deliberating what he should do. (Cassius Dio Roman History 65.8). When the moon is eclipsed it turns red. One example of a lunar eclipse is found in Revelation 6:12. The miracle of the two suns, like the moving of the statue of Julius Caesar in the footnote above, also appear to point to Vespasian’s defeat of Vitellius.

Those were crazy times back then, between 66-70 AD. There were so many more strange and supernatural disturbances, too many to list so let's get back to what the purpose of spirits of the 3 frogs. They were to gather the kings of the earth to Armageddon. The word Armageddon, Har-Mageddon, is commonly supposed to represent the Mountain of Megiddo better known as Mt. Carmel. The Roman kings, generals and their armies gathered in the coastal city of Caesarea immediately before marching south to attack Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Caesarea is about eight miles east of Mt. Carmel, and Mt. Carmel is clearly visible from Caearea. Through this region ran a highway where goods were traded between Egypt, Asia Minor and the Middle East. This highway passed near Caesarea and continued northeast along the edge of Mt. Carmel through the Valley of Jezreel. Given the close proximity of the city of Caesarea and the valley of Megiddo, perhaps the mountain of Megiddo is the city of Caesarea itself? After all mountains often denote cities in the Bible. This verse indicates that the kings would meet at Armageddon though it is important to notice that no explicit mention is made in this verse or elsewhere of a battle at Mt. Megiddo itself. Thus, this is where the troops gathered, NOT WHERE THE BATTLE WAS TO TAKE PLACE!!

The term Armageddon must be derived from the Hebrew language, not a Greek transliteration. The Har- of Har-Mageddon is the Hebrew word for mountain. Thus the most likely meaning of Armageddon is “Mountain of Troops” or “Mountain of [mustering] Troops.” In light of this etymological evidence, many Christian scholars have now dismissed the notion of a battle at Mt. Megiddo in favor of a battle at Jerusalem. This belief is becoming increasingly more and more common even among dispensationalists. The fact that Jerusalem, called many things throughout this prophetic series of visions, is given the title, Babylon, is not surprising since it is at Jerusalem that the Roman army and the remaining Jewish rebels converged to face one another during the climax of the Jewish War.

Thank you for your long and thoughtful reply. I believe John wrote the book of Revelation as a prophecy of what would happen at the time of the end of this age. (church age) I also believe there are probably many writings that pertained both to past events and future events simultaneously as the past was a tutor to the future also aka type and shadow. Example Babylon was in the far past even at the time of being written about in Revelation but it was an example of what would happen in the future and so named. I believe my God is big enough and smart enough to get a book into our hands that depicts just exactly what will happen in the future written from the perspective of the past because God is simultaneously in the past, present and future all all times.. He's so vast time and space cannot contain Him. You and I do not agree.

 

[Denise1964]

The so-called "rapture" is perhaps the most fundamentally misunderstood concept in the whole Bible. No massive group of living persons are going to be snatched off the planet at the same time!! I know it happened to Elijah and Enoch, but we have no prediction of it happening again. Heb 9:27 makes this point abundantly clear. "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." This verse is quoted by dozens of my forefathers who died before 1900 in their Last Will and Testaments. They all understood prior to dying that they would face death.

Thessalonians 4:15-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 are best understood in the traditional way–as descriptions of the resurrection, not rapture. The rapture is a relatively new Christian doctrine made popular especially in American evangelical circles. Most Christians living in a culture where the rapture is deeply engraved in church teaching might see these verses as irrefutable proof of this doctrine. However, for almost two thousand years most Christians understood that these verses referred to the resurrection of the dead.

The resurrection of the just occurred near the end of the reign of Nero who witnessed it. As construction of the canal began, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.” Recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground, the sound of a trumpet was heard. The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised literally fulfills 1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable. . . .”

The saints who had been locked up in Hades/Sheol were set free by Christ who "held the key to Death and Hades." In 1 Thes 4, they are taken first. For those of us who out-lived the resurrection, we immediately are "caught up" or raptured to heaven when we die. There is a lot more that could be said about this but that's the short of it and that's how Christians for 1,800 years understood it. Today when we believers die, we immediately go to heaven as countless witnesses of Near Death Experiences have claimed.

Have you heard of the Greek word "harpozo"? It means plucked up, snatched away. It is this word harpozo that is used in
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be (harpozo) caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[PlainWord]

Have you heard of the Greek word "harpozo"? It means plucked up, snatched away. It is this word harpozo that is used in
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be (harpozo) caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yes of course. Paul uses Harpozo twice. The other place he uses it is in 2 Corinthians 12:2 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up (harpozo) to the third heaven." Paul wrote these words around 55 AD.

Just about everyone believes Paul was writing about his own experience of near death. Just about everyone thinks during the many persecutions Paul endured since his conversion around 36 AD that he must have clinically died for a brief moment and was immediately taken to heaven only to recover. Since in the 2 Cor 12 example, harpozo means caught up to heaven upon death why should we infer that in the 1 Thes 4 example Paul teaches something different?

 

[Absolutely]

I'm sorry, BUT, That's the words God used in Ezekial 13:20, and He is against it.
Regarding Rev. 14:14: You need to read from Rev. 14:1 for the context of this chapter:

14:1 "And I looked , and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads."
Christ is returned to earth, standing on mount Sion, (as the angels in Acts 1:9-11 said that He would), with 144,000 believers with God's Name, His word sealed in their minds. The Apostle John saw that Jesus & His host of 144,000 was on earth, He is not up in the clouds in Heaven.
Now the Apostle John in Vs. 2 states:
"And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
So, this verse tells me that in his vision, John, is with Christ & His host, on mount Sion, because he hears the voice from heaven.
And in vs.s 3-5 John identifies them as those who were not deceived by Anti-Christ, and who did not succumb to the pollutions connected with his great religious system in the coming days.
Now in vs. 6-11 are the last 3 woe angels, of the 7 angels listed in Rev. 11:14-15, who sound each their respective woe trumpets, following the death of God's 2 witnesses, that witness for Him 1,260 days (or 42 months or 3.5 years) (Rev. 11:3-14, which relates that they are killed and left on the street in public view, but after 3-1/2 days Christ resurrects them, and tells them to come up to heaven, and they ascend into heaven in full view of the public, for all the world to see, I'm sure it will be all over the TV, and the Internet. And Rev. 11:11 states;
The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly." In 11:19 "And the Temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His Temple the ark of His testament:...."
Then in 11:15 after God's 2 witnesses are killed, resurrected, and ascended, the seventh angel sounds, this is the 3rd woe angel, with his woe trumpet. This is the same angel in Rev. 14:9-11
In Rev. 14:14 this is not the Lord coming to fly people away out of earth prior to Satan's, Anti-Christ's, 5-month tribulation, this is the description of the Tribulation that Christ wreaks upon all those who followed Satan, and upon Satan's world system. It does not say that the white cloud that Christ is sitting on is in "Heaven". (Mark 13:26 "And then shall they see the son of man, coming in the clouds with great power and glory." That is, in our skies, which are also referred to as "heavens")
Rev. 14:13 states that John heard a voice from heaven instructing him to write.... he's with Christ on Earth here, and the cloud that Jesus is sitting on could be high up in the sky above the earth, not necessarily in Heaven, where the Temple of God is, because Vs. 15 states "And another angel came out of the Temple, crying with a loud voice to Him That sat on the cloud, "Thrust in your sickle..., and in Vs. 17 And another angel came out of the Temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Vs. 18 "Another angel comes out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."

You don't harvest grapes with a sickle!!

19 And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Note: "without the city" = outside of Jerusalem,
a thousand and six hundred furlongs = about 180 -200 miles
"blood" = blood came out of the winepress, not wine

This, Rev. 14:1-20, is not Jesus coming to rapture his beloved, believers off the earth prior to the appearance, and tribulation of Satan. This is speaking of Christ returning to the earth, and waging Armageddon, outside Jerusalem, and Hamengog, in Alaska, against Satan's Global, one-world Government's military, which stands against Him. This is the Tribulation of Christ against Satan, and his one-world, Global system, that he holds in place during the 5 months he is in power down here on earth.

Matt. 13:24-30 and 36-43 the Parable of the Tares, and His explanation of it, the first that is removed is "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." And that which remains as in Vs. 43 "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Matt. 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left, 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

The first is taken by deception by Anti-Christ, the second is not deceived, but remains working for the Lord until His appearance here on earth. Matt. 24:45 "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing." You either believe the words of Christ, or you believe the lies of man.

Matt 25
The parable of the 10 virgins

All were saved yet half left behind.

I suppose you believe that the wicked are gathered first?

But that would constitute a gathering and removal???
......which you are parked on being against?

 

[PlainWord]

Thank you for your long and thoughtful reply. I believe John wrote the book of Revelation as a prophecy of what would happen at the time of the end of this age. (church age) I also believe there are probably many writings that pertained both to past events and future events simultaneously as the past was a tutor to the future also aka type and shadow. Example Babylon was in the far past even at the time of being written about in Revelation but it was an example of what would happen in the future and so named. I believe my God is big enough and smart enough to get a book into our hands that depicts just exactly what will happen in the future written from the perspective of the past because God is simultaneously in the past, present and future all all times.. He's so vast time and space cannot contain Him. You and I do not agree.

That's fine if we don't agree. History does tend to repeat and if similar things happen in our future, so be it. We just don't have any Biblical forecast for our future. Revelation was clearly written to 7 first century Churches in Asia Minor located along the western shores of modern Turkey just opposite of where John was banished to Patmos.

If your view is correct then John had absolutely nothing of relevance to say to the Churches and Jesus had no specific message for them. All of these churches are long gone and none still operate today. Also, Revelation starts this way:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

If my view is correct, that John wrote Revelation prior to 70 AD, then the above makes perfect sense. If your view is correct, the above is a lie because there is no way, 2000 years and counting could be considered to be "shortly taking place" nor would the "time be near." Notice it says MUST, not Maybe to shortly take place??

Since I can point out how everything in Revelation was fulfilled in the first century and since Jesus said He was going to return to His generation, I'm going to stick to my views. But thanks for the dialogue.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes of course. Paul uses Harpozo twice. The other place he uses it is in 2 Corinthians 12:2 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up (harpozo) to the third heaven." Paul wrote these words around 55 AD.

Just about everyone believes Paul was writing about his own experience of near death. Just about everyone thinks during the many persecutions Paul endured since his conversion around 36 AD that he must have clinically died for a brief moment and was immediately taken to heaven only to recover. Since in the 2 Cor 12 example, harpozo means caught up to heaven upon death why should we infer that in the 1 Thes 4 example Paul teaches something different?

lol

We which are alive AND REMAIN.

"The living will meet those resurrected IN THE AIR"

you just got busted yet again.

So many verses you reframe

Disgusting.

 

[Absolutely]

QUOTE ;"This is speaking of Christ returning to the earth, and waging Armageddon, outside Jerusalem, and Hamengog, in Alaska, against Satan's Global, one-world Government's military, which stands against Him. This is the Tribulation of Christ against Satan, and his one-world, Global system, that he holds in place during the 5 months he is in power down here on earth."

LOL. Yeah lets get the context you leave out.

The 144 k (firstfruits) are in heaven,GATHERED FROM THE EARTH,and then,in almost the same breath Jesus appears with a SICKLE and HARVESTS (gathers,takes,snatches,harpozos) RIPE FRUIT.

Now by any stretch firstfruits are FIRST GATHERING PERIOD.

Psssst,that means MAIN HARVEST is IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING.

So yes,lets get the context right....not what you need it to be reframed as to protect your notions.

IOW you need rev 14 reframed.