What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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Rev 14 only works in Amil rapture model. The signified understanding which is used. Ituses the things seen, the temporal to reveal the unseen eternal .Revelation 14 looking back from the new heaven and earth "mount Sion" . Time has come to a end . The letter of the law death has been thrown into the lake of fire never to rise and condemn and therefore corrupt another whole creation
Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
The metaphor hundred forty and four thousand represents the bride of Christ made up of Jew and Gentile alike from the beginning with Able the first martyr , a number no man could count redeemed from earth. God does not literally number people .He forbids it so that men walk by faith the unseen.
Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
The metaphor hundred forty and four thousand represents the bride of Christ made up of Jew and Gentile alike from the beginning with Able the first martyr , a number no man could count redeemed from earth. God does not literally number people .He forbids it so that men walk by faith the unseen.
First off, Iamsoandso and I were discussing Rev 7 where clearly they were alive on earth being protected. You have to take the whole thing in context and not rely on a single passage. After Christ returned to heaven following His resurrection and ascension, what happens next? The answer is found in Dan 7:
He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. Where was this kingdom with peoples, nations, and languages? I would say in both heaven and earth.
We are told 9 TIMES after Christ returned to heaven this:
“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”
So Christ is going nowhere until Israel has been softened up by Vespasian and/or destroyed or in the process of being destroyed by Titus. But you cite this from Rev 14: "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."
Oh no, the Lamb is on the move!! Right?? He isn't sitting at the right hand anymore. Where do you suppose the Lamb is going? Let's look at another one of the 9 passages where the above phrase in bold is found. This from Mat 26:
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
His presence is coming back on the clouds of heaven. I believe the 144K are the WOMAN of Rev 12. Just as in the OT, God led the children out of Egypt with His presence as a pillar of smoke by day and fire by night, Christ led the Woman out of Jerusalem to the mountains, along the ridge line and eventual to Pella where they were kept safe from the dragon who went off to make war with the rest of Israel.
In Rev 14, John is beholding the 144K on Mount Zion. He hears a voice from Heaven. He heard harps and singing. The 144K being virgins distinguishes them from the rest of Babylon (Jerusalem), the whore.
2 Corinthians 11:2 states, “I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” 2 Corinthians was addressed to the Christian church at Corinth. In both this verse and v. 4, the church is said to be a virgin. The wedding ceremony between Christ and His virgin, the church, is later described in Rev 21:2. The fact that these 144,000 have not defiled themselves with woman probably does not mean that they were all literal virgins. Their virginity is likely figurative, it is meant to contrast these people with the rest of Babylon which is later shown committing adultery with the beast in Rev 18:1-3. Washed clean by the blood of Christ, the church is forgiven and found to be blameless in Rev 12:5.
In Rev 12:4 the 144,000 are called “first fruits.” This title again points to the first century church. In Romans 16:5 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Paul uses this term to describe the first converts of Asia and Achaia. "Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ." One can be redeemed without being taken to heaven. We see this in Luke 21 as they were to "look up because their redemption draws near." Do the 144K eventually get to heaven? Of course.
There are many fascinating things to be said about the harvests in Rev 12 but this post is already too long...
He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. Where was this kingdom with peoples, nations, and languages? I would say in both heaven and earth.
We are told 9 TIMES after Christ returned to heaven this:
“Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”
So Christ is going nowhere until Israel has been softened up by Vespasian and/or destroyed or in the process of being destroyed by Titus. But you cite this from Rev 14: "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."
Oh no, the Lamb is on the move!! Right?? He isn't sitting at the right hand anymore. Where do you suppose the Lamb is going? Let's look at another one of the 9 passages where the above phrase in bold is found. This from Mat 26:
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
His presence is coming back on the clouds of heaven. I believe the 144K are the WOMAN of Rev 12. Just as in the OT, God led the children out of Egypt with His presence as a pillar of smoke by day and fire by night, Christ led the Woman out of Jerusalem to the mountains, along the ridge line and eventual to Pella where they were kept safe from the dragon who went off to make war with the rest of Israel.
In Rev 14, John is beholding the 144K on Mount Zion. He hears a voice from Heaven. He heard harps and singing. The 144K being virgins distinguishes them from the rest of Babylon (Jerusalem), the whore.
2 Corinthians 11:2 states, “I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.” 2 Corinthians was addressed to the Christian church at Corinth. In both this verse and v. 4, the church is said to be a virgin. The wedding ceremony between Christ and His virgin, the church, is later described in Rev 21:2. The fact that these 144,000 have not defiled themselves with woman probably does not mean that they were all literal virgins. Their virginity is likely figurative, it is meant to contrast these people with the rest of Babylon which is later shown committing adultery with the beast in Rev 18:1-3. Washed clean by the blood of Christ, the church is forgiven and found to be blameless in Rev 12:5.
In Rev 12:4 the 144,000 are called “first fruits.” This title again points to the first century church. In Romans 16:5 and 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, Paul uses this term to describe the first converts of Asia and Achaia. "Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ." One can be redeemed without being taken to heaven. We see this in Luke 21 as they were to "look up because their redemption draws near." Do the 144K eventually get to heaven? Of course.
There are many fascinating things to be said about the harvests in Rev 12 but this post is already too long...
True that. But, they were much closer to the events of the first century than we are. It's funny how many on here cite Irenaeus who was from the same time frame, circa 165 AD as the authority for dating the writing of Revelation when he was a double hearsay witness from Gaul (France) with no direct knowledge of John. He heard a story from someone (Polycarp) who heard a story yet everyone who claims a 95-96 AD writing uses Irenaeus like he was divine Gospel-like accurate.
My purpose for showing what these early Christian writers wrote is to show support for my position. It isn't like I invented this theory out of thin air. Many believed as I do, especially the further back you go. Do you know that Polycarp never once mentions Christ returning?
My purpose for showing what these early Christian writers wrote is to show support for my position. It isn't like I invented this theory out of thin air. Many believed as I do, especially the further back you go. Do you know that Polycarp never once mentions Christ returning?
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Meant to say Rev 14, not 12 in my previous post towards the end.
Let's discuss the meaning of these harvests in Rev 14:
The fact that the Son of Man and the angels in the above verses are all holding sickles hints at the fact that the events described above may have transpired during the harvest months. The major Jewish holidays coincided with the various harvests. Passover was during the barley harvest. Pentecost occurred during the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Tabernacles, during the grape harvest. The fact that Jesus and the angels from the Temple are holding sickles points to both the barley and wheat harvests. Both barley and wheat were harvested with a sickle. The barley harvest began around Passover, in the middle of Nisan. The wheat harvest began in Sivan around Pentecost. The grape harvest is also alluded to in v. 18. In Revelation 14:18 sickles are used by the angels to cut grape clusters from the vine. The fact that vs. 14-18 allude to both the grain and grape harvests implies that the heavenly events mentioned above took place sometime around Nisan at the start of the barley harvest and ended around Tishri during the grape harvest. The events of vs. 14-18 are also mentioned in Revelation 8:1-6 and Revelation 15:5-16:1. Not surprisingly, first century historians describe various supernatural events that seem to fulfill these verses during the months of the grain and grape harvests at the start of the Jewish War in A.D. 66. It, therefore, does not appear to be a coincidence that the Jews began their revolt against Rome during the barley harvest in A.D. 66, and the Roman offensive under Cestius began at the start of the grape harvest that same year. Thus it is not surprising that the Bible also refers to the end of the age as a harvest in Matthew 13:39: “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.”
The presence of God also called the Shekinah or Glory Cloud was believed to be ever present in the Most Holy Place of the Temple above the Ark of the Covenant according to Exodus 25:22. Whenever God revealed himself to Israel, He often did so in the Glory Cloud as is the case in Exodus 3:2, Exodus 13:21, Exodus 19:16-19, Deuteronomy 4:11-14, 2 Samuel 22:8-15, 1 Kings 19:11-13, Psalm 18:6-16, Psalm 50:3, Psalm 97:1-5 and Psalm 144:5, Isaiah 66:15-16 and Ezekiel 1. While amidst the Glory Cloud, God was believed to be present in the company of angelic beings according to Deuteronomy 33:2 and Ezekiel 1. Similarly, Jesus said that He would come on the clouds of heaven in the presence of the angelic host during the second coming according Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38 and Jude 14-15. The expression “coming on the clouds of heaven” is, of course, a direct allusion to the coming of Christ in the Glory Cloud as God had done so often in Old Testament history. Therefore, the fact that Christ said that He would come on the clouds of heaven is also an implicit statement of divinity since the Glory Cloud is the quintessential sign of the presence of God. Thus this appearance of Christ coming on the literal clouds of the Glory Cloud is the ultimate manifestation of divine glory. We see that the return of Christ's presence which had been absent, is identical to when God was present in the OT.
In Revelation 14:14, Jesus is shown sitting on the clouds during His second coming. Though Jesus’ human-like appearance was visible one month earlier amidst the fiery angelic army in the sky during the part of the second coming described in detail in Rev 19, Jesus’ human-like form would not have been visible here. Just as the substance of the Glory Cloud that guided the Israelites to the Promised Land in Exodus rendered God invisible to the people, Jesus once again pictured in the Glory Cloud in v. 14 would have also likely been invisible. God had come on the clouds in judgment several times in Old Testament history and each time God was seemingly invisible. This is because the Glory Cloud masked his likeness as it had in Exodus. (Though God is truly only visible to men in visions.) This point is clearest in Psalm 18:9-14. In Psalm 18, God parts the heavens and rides clouds so dark that they block out the light of his presence.
Though the Jews revolted against Rome during the Barley Harvest, the Roman Offensive Began at the Start of the Grape Harvest hence the Grape Harvest Symbolism in vs. 19-20. Far from depicting a Literal Flood of Blood, Revelation 14:20 portrays Jesus riding on His White Horse as He does in Revelation 19:11-15 shedding Blood up to the His Horse’s Bridle throughout Israel as He “treads the Winepress” in Judgment.
Now this is fascinating. Let's look at the last verse of Rev 14:
20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs (Stadia).
1600 itinerary stadia is equivalent to 251.2 km, the exact length of the Jordan River!
Similar hyperbole is found in 2 Kings 21:16 and Ezekiel 32:6. In Ezekiel, Pharaoh is pictured as a sea monster dragged ashore by the Lord and killed. Concerning Pharaoh’s death Ezekiel 32:6 reads, “I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh.” Similar imagery is found in 2 Kings 21:16 which reads, “Moreover, Manasseh shed very much innocent blood until he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another.” A nearly identical expression is found in Revelation 14:20. According to v. 20, the whole length of Israel “from one end to another” was filled with blood. 1,600 stadia is the exact length of the Jordan River and as such is an estimate of the length of Israel “from one end to another.” Interestingly, Josephus also uses similar language to Ezekiel 32:6 and 2 Kings 21:16 in recording the fulfillment of Revelation 14:20: “Galilee was all over filled with fire and blood.” And along these same lines concerning the excessively bloody aftermath of the Jewish War, the Talmud records the following claim: “For seven years did the nations of the world cultivate their vineyards with no other manure than the blood of Israel.”
Again in Matthew 13:39, Jesus says, “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.” Though the Jews revolted against Rome during the barley harvest, the Roman offensive began at the start of the grape harvest. Under Cestius, Rome began its offensive during the Jewish War around the month of Tishri which was at the start of the grape harvest. This fact accounts for the grape harvest symbolism in vs. 19-20.
Here the destruction of Israel prior to the siege of Jerusalem is pictured as the crushing of grapes during the grape harvest. This symbolism is not without precedence: In this verse, as in Isaiah 5:7, Israel is symbolized as a vineyard; and as is the case in Lamentations 1:15, the slaughter of the Israelites is represented as grapes being crushed in a winepress. This imagery is clearly presented in Isaiah 63:1-3:
These verses are strikingly similar to the second coming as it is described in Revelation 19:11-15. In these verses Jesus again strides on horseback with garments stained red with blood. His garments are red because He “treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty” in Revelation 19:15 as He had also done in Isaiah 63:3. He does this alone according to Isaiah 63:3 which explains why only Jesus’ garments are stained red in Revelation 19:13-14. The fact that blood reaches His horses’ bridle in Revelation 14:20 explains how Jesus’ garments had become stained red with blood in Revelation 19:13 while He sat atop his white horse. Therefore, far from depicting a literal flood of blood over Israel in the first century, Revelation 14:20 ultimately portrays Jesus coming in judgment on Israel as He rides on His white horse shedding blood up to His horse’s bridle as He “treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.”
Let's discuss the meaning of these harvests in Rev 14:
The fact that the Son of Man and the angels in the above verses are all holding sickles hints at the fact that the events described above may have transpired during the harvest months. The major Jewish holidays coincided with the various harvests. Passover was during the barley harvest. Pentecost occurred during the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Tabernacles, during the grape harvest. The fact that Jesus and the angels from the Temple are holding sickles points to both the barley and wheat harvests. Both barley and wheat were harvested with a sickle. The barley harvest began around Passover, in the middle of Nisan. The wheat harvest began in Sivan around Pentecost. The grape harvest is also alluded to in v. 18. In Revelation 14:18 sickles are used by the angels to cut grape clusters from the vine. The fact that vs. 14-18 allude to both the grain and grape harvests implies that the heavenly events mentioned above took place sometime around Nisan at the start of the barley harvest and ended around Tishri during the grape harvest. The events of vs. 14-18 are also mentioned in Revelation 8:1-6 and Revelation 15:5-16:1. Not surprisingly, first century historians describe various supernatural events that seem to fulfill these verses during the months of the grain and grape harvests at the start of the Jewish War in A.D. 66. It, therefore, does not appear to be a coincidence that the Jews began their revolt against Rome during the barley harvest in A.D. 66, and the Roman offensive under Cestius began at the start of the grape harvest that same year. Thus it is not surprising that the Bible also refers to the end of the age as a harvest in Matthew 13:39: “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.”
The presence of God also called the Shekinah or Glory Cloud was believed to be ever present in the Most Holy Place of the Temple above the Ark of the Covenant according to Exodus 25:22. Whenever God revealed himself to Israel, He often did so in the Glory Cloud as is the case in Exodus 3:2, Exodus 13:21, Exodus 19:16-19, Deuteronomy 4:11-14, 2 Samuel 22:8-15, 1 Kings 19:11-13, Psalm 18:6-16, Psalm 50:3, Psalm 97:1-5 and Psalm 144:5, Isaiah 66:15-16 and Ezekiel 1. While amidst the Glory Cloud, God was believed to be present in the company of angelic beings according to Deuteronomy 33:2 and Ezekiel 1. Similarly, Jesus said that He would come on the clouds of heaven in the presence of the angelic host during the second coming according Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38 and Jude 14-15. The expression “coming on the clouds of heaven” is, of course, a direct allusion to the coming of Christ in the Glory Cloud as God had done so often in Old Testament history. Therefore, the fact that Christ said that He would come on the clouds of heaven is also an implicit statement of divinity since the Glory Cloud is the quintessential sign of the presence of God. Thus this appearance of Christ coming on the literal clouds of the Glory Cloud is the ultimate manifestation of divine glory. We see that the return of Christ's presence which had been absent, is identical to when God was present in the OT.
In Revelation 14:14, Jesus is shown sitting on the clouds during His second coming. Though Jesus’ human-like appearance was visible one month earlier amidst the fiery angelic army in the sky during the part of the second coming described in detail in Rev 19, Jesus’ human-like form would not have been visible here. Just as the substance of the Glory Cloud that guided the Israelites to the Promised Land in Exodus rendered God invisible to the people, Jesus once again pictured in the Glory Cloud in v. 14 would have also likely been invisible. God had come on the clouds in judgment several times in Old Testament history and each time God was seemingly invisible. This is because the Glory Cloud masked his likeness as it had in Exodus. (Though God is truly only visible to men in visions.) This point is clearest in Psalm 18:9-14. In Psalm 18, God parts the heavens and rides clouds so dark that they block out the light of his presence.
Though the Jews revolted against Rome during the Barley Harvest, the Roman Offensive Began at the Start of the Grape Harvest hence the Grape Harvest Symbolism in vs. 19-20. Far from depicting a Literal Flood of Blood, Revelation 14:20 portrays Jesus riding on His White Horse as He does in Revelation 19:11-15 shedding Blood up to the His Horse’s Bridle throughout Israel as He “treads the Winepress” in Judgment.
Now this is fascinating. Let's look at the last verse of Rev 14:
20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs (Stadia).
1600 itinerary stadia is equivalent to 251.2 km, the exact length of the Jordan River!
Similar hyperbole is found in 2 Kings 21:16 and Ezekiel 32:6. In Ezekiel, Pharaoh is pictured as a sea monster dragged ashore by the Lord and killed. Concerning Pharaoh’s death Ezekiel 32:6 reads, “I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh.” Similar imagery is found in 2 Kings 21:16 which reads, “Moreover, Manasseh shed very much innocent blood until he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another.” A nearly identical expression is found in Revelation 14:20. According to v. 20, the whole length of Israel “from one end to another” was filled with blood. 1,600 stadia is the exact length of the Jordan River and as such is an estimate of the length of Israel “from one end to another.” Interestingly, Josephus also uses similar language to Ezekiel 32:6 and 2 Kings 21:16 in recording the fulfillment of Revelation 14:20: “Galilee was all over filled with fire and blood.” And along these same lines concerning the excessively bloody aftermath of the Jewish War, the Talmud records the following claim: “For seven years did the nations of the world cultivate their vineyards with no other manure than the blood of Israel.”
Again in Matthew 13:39, Jesus says, “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.” Though the Jews revolted against Rome during the barley harvest, the Roman offensive began at the start of the grape harvest. Under Cestius, Rome began its offensive during the Jewish War around the month of Tishri which was at the start of the grape harvest. This fact accounts for the grape harvest symbolism in vs. 19-20.
Here the destruction of Israel prior to the siege of Jerusalem is pictured as the crushing of grapes during the grape harvest. This symbolism is not without precedence: In this verse, as in Isaiah 5:7, Israel is symbolized as a vineyard; and as is the case in Lamentations 1:15, the slaughter of the Israelites is represented as grapes being crushed in a winepress. This imagery is clearly presented in Isaiah 63:1-3:
Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.” Why are your garments red like those of one treading the winepress? “I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing.
These verses are strikingly similar to the second coming as it is described in Revelation 19:11-15. In these verses Jesus again strides on horseback with garments stained red with blood. His garments are red because He “treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty” in Revelation 19:15 as He had also done in Isaiah 63:3. He does this alone according to Isaiah 63:3 which explains why only Jesus’ garments are stained red in Revelation 19:13-14. The fact that blood reaches His horses’ bridle in Revelation 14:20 explains how Jesus’ garments had become stained red with blood in Revelation 19:13 while He sat atop his white horse. Therefore, far from depicting a literal flood of blood over Israel in the first century, Revelation 14:20 ultimately portrays Jesus coming in judgment on Israel as He rides on His white horse shedding blood up to His horse’s bridle as He “treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.”
This is off topic but are you familiar with the Apocalypse of Peter? Apparently it was considered far more authentic by the early church than his 2nd epistle was, which was not quoted until the late 4th century and remains in dispute. The Apocalypse of Peter gives an incredible description of heaven and hell that I have never heard before, especially the description of hell and the various forms of punishment based on the type of sinner one was. We all better stay on the straight and narrow after reading this!!
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-roberts.html
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-roberts.html
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The Rapture, Abomination of Desolation and Great Tribulation are found in the writings of the early church!!! Those who believe in the pre-trib rapture, you have it right (except for the timing). If anyone has ears to hear and eyes to see, Eusebius records these events this way in Book 3 of Histories:
Chapter V.—The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.
1. After Nero had held the power thirteen years, and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months, Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.
2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”
3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,—all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.
5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem “as in a prison,” to use his own words.
6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up “as in a prison,” they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.
7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.
Chapter V.—The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.
1. After Nero had held the power thirteen years, and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months, Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.
2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”
3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,—all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.
5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalem “as in a prison,” to use his own words.
6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up “as in a prison,” they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.
7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.
Eusebius ends any debate about the meaning of the Olivet Discourse. His view is identical to mine. He destroys all FUTURISTS VIEWS RIGHT HERE. GAME OVER.
Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.
1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
3. The historian (Josephus), reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.
4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:
5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”
6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange.
8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
Chapter VII.—The Predictions of Christ.
1. It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events.
2. His words are as follows: “Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day. For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
3. The historian (Josephus), reckoning the whole number of the slain, says that eleven hundred thousand persons perished by famine and sword, and that the rest of the rioters and robbers, being betrayed by each other after the taking of the city, were slain. But the tallest of the youths and those that were distinguished for beauty were preserved for the triumph. Of the rest of the multitude, those that were over seventeen years of age were sent as prisoners to labor in the works of Egypt, while still more were scattered through the provinces to meet their death in the theaters by the sword and by beasts. Those under seventeen years of age were carried away to be sold as slaves, and of these alone the number reached ninety thousand.
4. These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which he uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said:
5. “If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground.”
6. And then, as if speaking concerning the people, he says, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” And again: “When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.”
7. If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange.
8. Concerning those calamities, then, that befell the whole Jewish nation after the Saviour’s passion and after the words which the multitude of the Jews uttered, when they begged the release of the robber and murderer, but besought that the Prince of Life should be taken from their midst, it is not necessary to add anything to the account of the historian.
9. But it may be proper to mention also those events which exhibited the graciousness of that all-good Providence which held back their destruction full forty years after their crime against Christ,—during which time many of the apostles and disciples, and James himself the first bishop there, the one who is called the brother of the Lord, were still alive, and dwelling in Jerusalem itself, remained the surest bulwark of the place. Divine Providence thus still proved itself long-suffering toward them in order to see whether by repentance for what they had done they might obtain pardon and salvation; and in addition to such long-suffering, Providence also furnished wonderful signs of the things which were about to happen to them if they did not repent.
10. Since these matters have been thought worthy of mention by the historian already cited, we cannot do better than to recount them for the benefit of the readers of this work.
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It's not in the bible at all. If someone asked me the aforementioned question, I would tell them that the rapture is not there. For that matter God speaks against the fly away doctrine.
Ezekial 13:17 " Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My People, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
[Note: sew pillows to all armholes = sew together coverings upon all the joints of My hands : i.e., hide from the people the hands of Jehovah lifted up and stretched forth in judgment (Isa. 26. 11; 52. 10).
pillows = coverings for purposes of concealment Heb. kesathoth (occurs only here and in v. 20, from kasah, to conceal, hide. First occ. (of kasah) Gen. 7.19, 20; 9.23; 18.17; 24.65; 37.26; 38.14, 15, &c. The object is shown in Isa. 26. 11.
armholes = My hands; referring to the judgments they were to execute (14. 9, 13). Cp. vv. 9, 21, 22, 23. The Sept. renders it proskephalaia = for the head.
make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature = make mantles to cover the heads (and therefore the eyes) of those on whom the judgments of God's hand were about to fall, lest they should see.
kerchiefs = wraps that cleave close around the head. Heb. mispahoth (occurs only here) , from saphah, to join, or cleave closely. Saphah occurs 1 Sam. 2. 36 (put = attach); 26. 19 (abiding = cleaving). Job 30.7 (gathered together). Isa. 14. 1 (cleave). Hab. 2. 15 (puttest = holdest). The object being to cover the head so that God's hand may not be seen (Isa. 26. 11)
stature = tall figure. Heb. komah = height. First occ. Gen. 6. 15 Cp. 1 Sam. 16. 7 (his stature); 28. 20, &c. Put here for every man of high or lofty station : i.e. for the princes or rulers in Jerusalem, whose eyes were blinded by these false prophetesses.
hunt = harry, or ensnare
souls. Heb. nephesh. Put here for the People
Will ye?....? This is not a question, but a statement.]
Vs. 19 And will ye pollute Me among My People for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls that should not live, by your lying to My People that hear your lies?
Vs. 20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Vs. 21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My People out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Vs. 22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Vs. 23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My People out of your hand : and ye shall know that I am the LORD.''"
The interpretation they hold and promote of 1 Thess. 4:17 is totally erroneous. The subject of that verse is contained within Vs. 13, "concerning them which are asleep" which is "where the dead are". Paul was addressing the worries of some within the congregation of the church at Thessalonica, as to where their departed loved ones were. He told them that we which are alive at His return shall not precede them into heaven, as they are already with the Lord
Cp. Heb. 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside...."
cloud = throng
i.e., a great multitude of believers/witnesses
Cp. Acts 1:9 "And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Vs. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Vs. 11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."
Jesus is returning here at His 2nd Advent, at the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial. He said in Matt. 24:45-46
Vs. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Vs. 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."
We're not flying out of here anywhere, not Pre-, not Mid-, not Post-, Millennium, or anytime. Jesus is returning here to earth, and will set his feet down upon the Mt. of Olives at His return. We might all rise up to greet him in a big group, but we return here with Him, He doesn't come back to "fly us away out of here".
Ezekial 13:17 " Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My People, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
[Note: sew pillows to all armholes = sew together coverings upon all the joints of My hands : i.e., hide from the people the hands of Jehovah lifted up and stretched forth in judgment (Isa. 26. 11; 52. 10).
pillows = coverings for purposes of concealment Heb. kesathoth (occurs only here and in v. 20, from kasah, to conceal, hide. First occ. (of kasah) Gen. 7.19, 20; 9.23; 18.17; 24.65; 37.26; 38.14, 15, &c. The object is shown in Isa. 26. 11.
armholes = My hands; referring to the judgments they were to execute (14. 9, 13). Cp. vv. 9, 21, 22, 23. The Sept. renders it proskephalaia = for the head.
make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature = make mantles to cover the heads (and therefore the eyes) of those on whom the judgments of God's hand were about to fall, lest they should see.
kerchiefs = wraps that cleave close around the head. Heb. mispahoth (occurs only here) , from saphah, to join, or cleave closely. Saphah occurs 1 Sam. 2. 36 (put = attach); 26. 19 (abiding = cleaving). Job 30.7 (gathered together). Isa. 14. 1 (cleave). Hab. 2. 15 (puttest = holdest). The object being to cover the head so that God's hand may not be seen (Isa. 26. 11)
stature = tall figure. Heb. komah = height. First occ. Gen. 6. 15 Cp. 1 Sam. 16. 7 (his stature); 28. 20, &c. Put here for every man of high or lofty station : i.e. for the princes or rulers in Jerusalem, whose eyes were blinded by these false prophetesses.
hunt = harry, or ensnare
souls. Heb. nephesh. Put here for the People
Will ye?....? This is not a question, but a statement.]
Vs. 19 And will ye pollute Me among My People for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls that should not live, by your lying to My People that hear your lies?
Vs. 20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Vs. 21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My People out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Vs. 22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Vs. 23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My People out of your hand : and ye shall know that I am the LORD.''"
The interpretation they hold and promote of 1 Thess. 4:17 is totally erroneous. The subject of that verse is contained within Vs. 13, "concerning them which are asleep" which is "where the dead are". Paul was addressing the worries of some within the congregation of the church at Thessalonica, as to where their departed loved ones were. He told them that we which are alive at His return shall not precede them into heaven, as they are already with the Lord
Cp. Heb. 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside...."
cloud = throng
i.e., a great multitude of believers/witnesses
Cp. Acts 1:9 "And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Vs. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Vs. 11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."
Jesus is returning here at His 2nd Advent, at the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial. He said in Matt. 24:45-46
Vs. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Vs. 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing."
We're not flying out of here anywhere, not Pre-, not Mid-, not Post-, Millennium, or anytime. Jesus is returning here to earth, and will set his feet down upon the Mt. of Olives at His return. We might all rise up to greet him in a big group, but we return here with Him, He doesn't come back to "fly us away out of here".
Not only are we not flying away out of here, but per Apostle Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:35-58, that, at the return of Christ, we who are alive here on earth, and still working for him, we all, everybody are changed into spiritual bodies.
Vs. 42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
The flesh body cannot enter out of this present dimension into the spiritual dimension where God & Christ are now.
Vs. 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power;
These flesh bodies which we at present inhabit, we are born in sin, it is weak, subject to deformity, disease, & it dies, we don't die, it dies. Picture driving your car down the highway, it all of a sudden conks out, so you pull it to the side as best you can, you get out & walk to the nearest call box (this was before cellphones, ok?)
and call for help, then you walk back and wait by the car for the tow truck (but now you just call AAA from your cellphone, or whoever) or you get out of the dead car and you hitch a ride in to the nearest town to get a tow truck.
Vs. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are inside our spiritual body, holed up inside this corruptible flesh body, traveling around on this present earth.
Then look at what Paul says in Vs. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Our spiritual body looks just like our flesh body, we will be recognizable to our family & friends who've passed on before us. The only difference is that we don't have all the infirmities, the wrinkles, the aging, we appear as we did when we were younger, about 25-35 or so.
Vs. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The flesh body cannot pass into the spiritual dimension, it gets left behind.
Vs. 51 Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Vs. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
"and the dead" = the spiritually dead, people who for whatever reason have not accepted Christ as their Savior, before they departed this fleshly earth life.
They shall be changed from their flesh bodies into their spiritual bodies, but with a mortal, i.e., liable to die soul.
Luke 16:19-31, the parable of the rich man, and the beggar, Lazarus, is not really just a parable, Christ describes Paradise as a literal, actual place.
In verse 26 Abraham is speaking to the rich man, and says there "is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
The word "gulf" in the Greek = chasm. A transliteration of the Gr. chasma, from chasko, to gape. A medical word for an open wound." per E.W. Bullinger's note.
And after the rich man appeals to Abraham, to send Lazarus, the poor man to his father's house, to his brothers to warn them, Christ ends in Vs. 31:
Vs. 31 "And he said unto him, 'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'"
We go back to God/Christ, in our spiritual bodies, to one side of the gulf or the other in Paradise, either after we die, or at the time of His return. Then there is the 1,000 years, the millennium, which is a Day of the Lord
2 Peter3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Also Cp. Psa 90:4.
Rev. 20:1-5, *6, -15 Vs. 6 is very important, there are 2 resurrections and 2 deaths. The first is for those martyred, and/or also that were believers & witnesses prior to their death, or were serving Him when He returns at His 2nd Advent. They go to the good side of Paradise, and are blessed with eternal life, and are priests of God and of Christ. The 2nd death does not affect them, they are saved by faith in Christ.
The 2nd resurrection is for those who either did not receive Christ, for whatever reason, they died in a state of either ignorance, or willful unbelief in an unsaved state, they go to the not so good side of Paradise. Then there is the Day of the Lord, 1,000 years, and those who were saved by Christ can go to their family members who are on the not-so-good-side of Paradise, and preach to them, and teach them about Christ (Eze. 44:25-26). Then after the 1,000 years, the millennium is ended, Satan is set loose out of the bottomless pit, to test them. Nobody gets into heaven untested.
Vs. 42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
The flesh body cannot enter out of this present dimension into the spiritual dimension where God & Christ are now.
Vs. 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power;
These flesh bodies which we at present inhabit, we are born in sin, it is weak, subject to deformity, disease, & it dies, we don't die, it dies. Picture driving your car down the highway, it all of a sudden conks out, so you pull it to the side as best you can, you get out & walk to the nearest call box (this was before cellphones, ok?)
and call for help, then you walk back and wait by the car for the tow truck (but now you just call AAA from your cellphone, or whoever) or you get out of the dead car and you hitch a ride in to the nearest town to get a tow truck.
Vs. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are inside our spiritual body, holed up inside this corruptible flesh body, traveling around on this present earth.
Then look at what Paul says in Vs. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Our spiritual body looks just like our flesh body, we will be recognizable to our family & friends who've passed on before us. The only difference is that we don't have all the infirmities, the wrinkles, the aging, we appear as we did when we were younger, about 25-35 or so.
Vs. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The flesh body cannot pass into the spiritual dimension, it gets left behind.
Vs. 51 Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Vs. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
"and the dead" = the spiritually dead, people who for whatever reason have not accepted Christ as their Savior, before they departed this fleshly earth life.
They shall be changed from their flesh bodies into their spiritual bodies, but with a mortal, i.e., liable to die soul.
Luke 16:19-31, the parable of the rich man, and the beggar, Lazarus, is not really just a parable, Christ describes Paradise as a literal, actual place.
In verse 26 Abraham is speaking to the rich man, and says there "is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
The word "gulf" in the Greek = chasm. A transliteration of the Gr. chasma, from chasko, to gape. A medical word for an open wound." per E.W. Bullinger's note.
And after the rich man appeals to Abraham, to send Lazarus, the poor man to his father's house, to his brothers to warn them, Christ ends in Vs. 31:
Vs. 31 "And he said unto him, 'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'"
We go back to God/Christ, in our spiritual bodies, to one side of the gulf or the other in Paradise, either after we die, or at the time of His return. Then there is the 1,000 years, the millennium, which is a Day of the Lord
2 Peter3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Also Cp. Psa 90:4.
Rev. 20:1-5, *6, -15 Vs. 6 is very important, there are 2 resurrections and 2 deaths. The first is for those martyred, and/or also that were believers & witnesses prior to their death, or were serving Him when He returns at His 2nd Advent. They go to the good side of Paradise, and are blessed with eternal life, and are priests of God and of Christ. The 2nd death does not affect them, they are saved by faith in Christ.
The 2nd resurrection is for those who either did not receive Christ, for whatever reason, they died in a state of either ignorance, or willful unbelief in an unsaved state, they go to the not so good side of Paradise. Then there is the Day of the Lord, 1,000 years, and those who were saved by Christ can go to their family members who are on the not-so-good-side of Paradise, and preach to them, and teach them about Christ (Eze. 44:25-26). Then after the 1,000 years, the millennium is ended, Satan is set loose out of the bottomless pit, to test them. Nobody gets into heaven untested.
Yes they are alive on earth,then harvested as firstfruits.
Same thing as others.
All martyrs are alive on earth at some time also
Of course they could not be harvested unless they were alive on earth at some point.
Your study has no provision for them being in heaven/harvested.
The bible says so inspite of any notion to the contrary.
Concerning "firstfruits" we are not talking about firstfruits of a mans work. It CLEARLY,CLEARLY defines them as harvested.
1) were redeemed (past tense) from the earth
2) before the throne
3)before the 4 beasts (ahem,that would be in heaven)
4) NOW ADD IN FIRSTFRUITS.
Interesting how definitive it is,and you immediately go to nonaplicable apologetics.
"They were all in one accord"...does not mean there was a honda car in the story.
The leaps necessary to paste history to ALL prophecy is getting way outta whack.
Same thing as others.
All martyrs are alive on earth at some time also
Of course they could not be harvested unless they were alive on earth at some point.
Your study has no provision for them being in heaven/harvested.
The bible says so inspite of any notion to the contrary.
Concerning "firstfruits" we are not talking about firstfruits of a mans work. It CLEARLY,CLEARLY defines them as harvested.
1) were redeemed (past tense) from the earth
2) before the throne
3)before the 4 beasts (ahem,that would be in heaven)
4) NOW ADD IN FIRSTFRUITS.
Interesting how definitive it is,and you immediately go to nonaplicable apologetics.
"They were all in one accord"...does not mean there was a honda car in the story.
The leaps necessary to paste history to ALL prophecy is getting way outta whack.
Here is a "rapture" DURING the gt
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
So it is definately truth.
They did ,using your mockery,"fly away"
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
So it is definately truth.
They did ,using your mockery,"fly away"
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Psssst,
Attention all historicists
Those "experts" you guys think of as infallable witnessed or were in the utter destruction of the LAND of israel or were privy to the obvious FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE.
Now,here we are with israel becommimg a nation and RESETTING the prophetic clock.
You historicists relying on unreliable refutable perspectives are making huge leaps into error and a literal view destroys your theories
Attention all historicists
Those "experts" you guys think of as infallable witnessed or were in the utter destruction of the LAND of israel or were privy to the obvious FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE.
Now,here we are with israel becommimg a nation and RESETTING the prophetic clock.
You historicists relying on unreliable refutable perspectives are making huge leaps into error and a literal view destroys your theories
I'm sorry, BUT, That's the words God used in Ezekial 13:20, and He is against it.
Regarding Rev. 14:14: You need to read from Rev. 14:1 for the context of this chapter:
14:1 "And I looked , and lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand, having His Father's name written in their foreheads."
Christ is returned to earth, standing on mount Sion, (as the angels in Acts 1:9-11 said that He would), with 144,000 believers with God's Name, His word sealed in their minds. The Apostle John saw that Jesus & His host of 144,000 was on earth, He is not up in the clouds in Heaven.
Now the Apostle John in Vs. 2 states:
"And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
So, this verse tells me that in his vision, John, is with Christ & His host, on mount Sion, because he hears the voice from heaven.
And in vs.s 3-5 John identifies them as those who were not deceived by Anti-Christ, and who did not succumb to the pollutions connected with his great religious system in the coming days.
Now in vs. 6-11 are the last 3 woe angels, of the 7 angels listed in Rev. 11:14-15, who sound each their respective woe trumpets, following the death of God's 2 witnesses, that witness for Him 1,260 days (or 42 months or 3.5 years) (Rev. 11:3-14, which relates that they are killed and left on the street in public view, but after 3-1/2 days Christ resurrects them, and tells them to come up to heaven, and they ascend into heaven in full view of the public, for all the world to see, I'm sure it will be all over the TV, and the Internet. And Rev. 11:11 states;
The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly." In 11:19 "And the Temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His Temple the ark of His testament:...."
Then in 11:15 after God's 2 witnesses are killed, resurrected, and ascended, the seventh angel sounds, this is the 3rd woe angel, with his woe trumpet. This is the same angel in Rev. 14:9-11
In Rev. 14:14 this is not the Lord coming to fly people away out of earth prior to Satan's, Anti-Christ's, 5-month tribulation, this is the description of the Tribulation that Christ wreaks upon all those who followed Satan, and upon Satan's world system. It does not say that the white cloud that Christ is sitting on is in "Heaven". (Mark 13:26 "And then shall they see the son of man, coming in the clouds with great power and glory." That is, in our skies, which are also referred to as "heavens")
Rev. 14:13 states that John heard a voice from heaven instructing him to write.... he's with Christ on Earth here, and the cloud that Jesus is sitting on could be high up in the sky above the earth, not necessarily in Heaven, where the Temple of God is, because Vs. 15 states "And another angel came out of the Temple, crying with a loud voice to Him That sat on the cloud, "Thrust in your sickle..., and in Vs. 17 And another angel came out of the Temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Vs. 18 "Another angel comes out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe."
You don't harvest grapes with a sickle!!
19 And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."
Note: "without the city" = outside of Jerusalem,
a thousand and six hundred furlongs = about 180 -200 miles
"blood" = blood came out of the winepress, not wine
This, Rev. 14:1-20, is not Jesus coming to rapture his beloved, believers off the earth prior to the appearance, and tribulation of Satan. This is speaking of Christ returning to the earth, and waging Armageddon, outside Jerusalem, and Hamengog, in Alaska, against Satan's Global, one-world Government's military, which stands against Him. This is the Tribulation of Christ against Satan, and his one-world, Global system, that he holds in place during the 5 months he is in power down here on earth.
Matt. 13:24-30 and 36-43 the Parable of the Tares, and His explanation of it, the first that is removed is "all things that offend, and them which do iniquity." And that which remains as in Vs. 43 "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."
Matt. 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left, 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
The first is taken by deception by Anti-Christ, the second is not deceived, but remains working for the Lord until His appearance here on earth. Matt. 24:45 "Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing." You either believe the words of Christ, or you believe the lies of man.
