Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

[Dave-L]

How is Free Will compatible with Sovereignty?

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox some 300 years ago. From the LBC consider:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

Here is the same in modern English provided by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

The way I understand this is, we freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

 

[Dino246]

Welcome to CC, and thanks for sharing this.

 

[John146]

How is Free Will compatible with Sovereignty?

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox some 300 years ago. From the LBC consider:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

Here is the same in modern English provided by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

The way I understand this is, we freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

Welcome!

One must define God’s sovereignty first since it’s not a biblical term. Are you talking about Calvin’s sovereignty? God has ordained everything that occurs and does not interact with man because everything is already predetermined? Or simply God is in complete control over His creation despite man’s personal free will decisions?

 

[Locoponydirtman]

How is Free Will compatible with Sovereignty?

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox some 300 years ago. From the LBC consider:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18
2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11
4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

Here is the same in modern English provided by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

The way I understand this is, we freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

Interesting post.
Just a anecdote, I was free will, then I was very Calvinistic, but with more study and understanding I have come to something akin to what you post.

 

[Pemican]

I think that people who reject the free will of man do not see how big God is. God is able to accomplish His will and plan in spite of all the freewill decisions of angels and mankind. He is so big and capable that He accomplishes His will over, under, around or through our decisions. This is how and why prophecy will always comes to pass no matter how unbelievable or unlikely it seems.

 

[John146]

I think that people who reject the free will of man do not see how big God is. God is able to accomplish His will and plan in spite of all the freewill decisions of angels and mankind. He is so big and capable that He accomplishes His will over, under, around or through our decisions. This is how and why prophecy will always comes to pass no matter how unbelievable or unlikely it seems.

Right on! Great perspective you’ve got there!

 

[Dave-L]

Welcome!

One must define God’s sovereignty first since it’s not a biblical term. Are you talking about Calvin’s sovereignty? God has ordained everything that occurs and does not interact with man because everything is already predetermined? Or simply God is in complete control over His creation despite man’s personal free will decisions?

I believe God controls our free choices, the choices we want most to make, based on the reasons we base them on. I use a goat, carrot, stick and a boy to illustrate this.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid hops on the wagon, ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in to the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat wants to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and now the goat both choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on.

 

[John146]

I believe God controls our free choices, the choices we want most to make, based on the reasons we base them on. I use a goat, carrot, stick and a boy to illustrate this.

A kid has a wagon with a goat. We know goats have a mind of their own, and if any creature has a free will, it is a goat. So the kid hops on the wagon, ties a carrot to his cane pole and dangles it in front of the goat. The goat wants the carrot so the kid steers the goat in to the direction he wants the goat to pull the wagon. If the kid dangles the carrot to the right, the goat wants to go in that direction. If the kid wants to stop, he raises the carrot. If he wants to travel further he dangles the carrot in front of the goat in the direction he and now the goat both choose to travel.

People, like the goat, always choose for a reason. But God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on.

How do you explain when the goat leaves the carrot and goes after something else?

 

[Dave-L]

How do you explain when the goat leaves the carrot and goes after something else?

The new desire and direction was also part of the plan?

 

[John146]

The new desire and direction was also part of the plan?

Christians fail to follow the carrot all the time. We make our own choices despite knowing what God wants from us.

 

[Dave-L]

Christians fail to follow the carrot all the time. We make our own choices despite knowing what God wants from us.

Not according to Paul.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)

 

[John146]

Not according to Paul.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)

Yes, if I do anything good, it is God doing it through me. As long as we are in this body of flesh, there is always going to be a war.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

 

[Dave-L]

Yes, if I do anything good, it is God doing it through me. As long as we are in this body of flesh, there is always going to be a war.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

It's part of God forming Christ in you. You would not have any genuine character if he didn't build through the battle with the flesh and you're overcoming it. Don't you think?

 

[John146]

It's part of God forming Christ in you. You would not have any genuine character if he didn't build through the battle with the flesh and you're overcoming it. Don't you think?

You don’t truly overcome it until we get out of these bodies and into our new glorified bodies. Thanks to Jesus, that’s going to happen one day.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How is Free Will compatible with Sovereignty?

Very simple. A sovereign God gave men and angels free will, and made them free moral agents. It does not detract from His sovereignty but adds to His glory. Even after the Fall, men can freely choose to obey or disobey the Gospel, and then face the consequences.

 

[Judges1318]

God sends and controls the reasons they base their choices on.

I liken it to a rat in a maze.
The rat is free to roam wherever he wants to within the confines of the maze set by the maker and controller of the maze.
In this scenario both the free will of the rat and the sovereignty of the master of the rat are preserved.
The maker of the maze can manipulate the maze to solicit any free will decision of the rat that it is capable of making and which the maker of the maze wants. And he does this entirely at his own discretion.

That's the best explanation that I've come up with to date.

 

[Dave-L]

Very simple. A sovereign God gave men and angels free will, and made them free moral agents. It does not detract from His sovereignty but adds to His glory. Even after the Fall, men can freely choose to obey or disobey the Gospel, and then face the consequences.

After the fall they can only choose sin. The flesh has no ability to know God or seek his glory. Post #16 by
Judges1318 just above is an excellent illustration of this.

 

[John146]

I liken it to a rat in a maze.
The rat is free to roam wherever he wants to within the confines of the maze set by the maker and controller of the maze.
In this scenario both the free will of the rat and the sovereignty of the master of the rat are preserved.
The maker of the maze can manipulate the maze to solicit any free will decision of the rat that it is capable of making and which the maker of the maze wants. And he does this entirely at his own discretion.

That's the best explanation that I've come up with to date.

Good anology for those already saved. This does not fit those who are still lost.

 

[Judges1318]

Good anology for those already saved. This does not fit those who are still lost.

Lost people are free to move around in the maze that God has confined them to. Just as saved people are free to move around in the maze that God has confined them to.

 

[John146]

Lost people are free to move around in the maze that God has confined them to. Just as saved people are free to move around in the maze that God has confined them to.

I was lost once. I’m glad I was not confined to some maze God had me locked into.