Can you know the date and time of Christ Return?

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Prophecies of the first coming and prophecies of the second are not mutually exclusive one of the other.
 
pottersclay said:
I've been studying this very topic for 3 weeks now. Here are my findings....hope it helps.

We must first look at the parable of the fig tree,

“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

In my studies the fig tree represents Israel. So we know that Israel is a time line. We know that Israel has been scattered throughout the world. So how and when does the fig tree begin to bloom again?

In 1948 Israel became a nation again. In one day just as it was spoken in prophecy. Never has any nation ever done this.

Now looking at the text again Jesus says " this generation shall not pass untill all these things take place.

So now the question is how long is a generation? Could it be 80 yrs from 1948 which gives us 2028?
If so we have 10 yrs left.

The day or hour could also be a common phrase used in that day about the watchmen looking for the new moon which begins the start of the Sabbath feast of attonement. Where watchmen would look for the slightest sliver of the new moon in the sky.
The watchmen were placed out there because no man knew the day or hour it would appear.

Still studying this much debated topic....hope this helps....God bless.
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The way it's written I think leads people to a misunderstanding, so you have to read carefully. There are two things that Jesus is talking about; the terrible times ahead where the temple is destroyed and wars and rumors or wars to the sign to get out of Judea when the abomination of desolation stands in the temple. ( Zealots take over and use the temple as a fortress, get out of Judea, because Nero will then sent Titus who will destroy the temple utterly and any one who don't bow to Nero. Which happened in 70 ad which was during that generations life time. ) All the way through verse 28 and then Jesus talks about his return through verse 31, where he tells the parable of the fig tree which is an example of how if your watching you will see it all coming as it happens.
Then in verse 36 he backs up and explains that his coming no one will know. You can know the other stuff specified by the signs but you will not know when he is coming, because he doesn't even know only the Father does. In verse 37 he says it will be like the days of Noah and explain in what ways in verse 38, people will be doing the things people, not expecting him to come. So in verse 42 be alert and watchful and because in verse 44 he is coming in an hour you don't think he is coming. Verse 45 therefore do things sensible and faithful running his house properly because in the subsequent verses he explain that you will have some serious problem when he come back if you are abusing your time and situation.
The previous verses are not a formula for mailing down a date.
 
God instructed Noah and his family to get on the boat. For 7 days it sat there on dry ground most likely people ridiculed Noah during the wait as Noah was in the closed boat no where near water. Then the rain came from the sky and up from the earth people had never seen it rain before.

We are instructed to watch and be ready at all times because we do not know when He comes.
 
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It doesn't say you CAN'T know.
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right

because saying only God knows really means only God knows but if we twist verses real real hard we can make them into our very own religion

we can then find a Christian forum to use as our soapbox and teach all the doofus types who actually believe in their ignorant simplicity, that only God knows, the actual truth that we alone know

well, we alone plus all the other teachers who were left standing lonely on a hill while their congregants walked away when Jesus did not show because only the Father knows

some, even managed to murder their little flocks

so glad you dropped in to clear things up for us :geek:
 
Hewillcome2040 said:
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Let me tell you what that verse says and what it doesn't say.

It doesn't say you CAN'T know.
It was said to specific people (the disciples)
It was said at a specific time (during the Olivet prophecy).
It shows that the Father is the one with the knowledge of the Day and Hour.

I want to dispel this satanic usage of this verse in which it is used to say we CAN'T know.

Now it says the Father is the one that knows. Who does the Father give His knowledge to and how? (think about that very hard for a moment).

God has set the course of redemption through the process of Faith (TRUST).

Who does God Trust?

Consider this verse:

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Now consider the verse above where bolded. If the Lord says He is coming as a thief in the night upon those that will not know the hour in which He comes if they Don't watch. Therefore, reasoning would be that if your watching then you know when God is coming.

Isn't God going to give those of His the knowledge of the Hour? Consider further:

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Read that verse again until you get it - it say if the goodman knows the watch then he would watch.

But let's look at the real proof verses here:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

So here the disciples are in Jerusalem and awaiting Pentecost and the receipt of the Holy Spirit. They can't know the day or hour because they don't have the Holy Spirit. Only the Father can reveal the time and hour by means of His Spirit. Notice the context of the question they asked and the Answer to that question. They are effectively told that they would know the Time and Seasons in God's Power AFTER they receive the Holy Spirit.

Just because many are wrong about the times and hours, etc.. doesn't mean that it can't be known. Remember it says it would as it was in Noah's day. And Noah knew the time when the floods would come BEFORE they came.

Hope this helps.
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In one sense it really does not matter when he comes the next time it will be the end not like in the days of Noah .Those that do rise will receive their living hope a new incorruptible bodies. The former things like the day hour or minute before will not be remembered or ever come to mind. As watchers we walk by faith the unseen.
 
Hewillcome2040 said:
Just because many are wrong about the times and hours, etc.. doesn't mean that it can't be known. Remember it says it would as it was in Noah's day. And Noah knew the time when the floods would come BEFORE they came.
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uh huh

that's correct cause the Lord God of the heavens and the earth told him when to boogie on in and even then Noah had to wait a week

what version of the Bible do you have?

Noah and the Flood
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

7 The Lord then said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and one pair of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven pairs of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made.”

5 And Noah did all that the Lord commanded him.
 
Hewillcome2040 said:
Can you show where it says we CAN'T know the hour?
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dude it's your party

you sent out the invites so to speak, so it's your rules here

we don't have to agree, but don't challenge people to prove what you believe

the way it works, is YOU have to provide the proof ;)

actually, it does say we cannot know the hour

you just don't think so
 
7seasrekeyed said:
right

because saying only God knows really means only God knows but if we twist verses real real hard we can make them into our very own religion
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At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, it was true that "only God knows" (but of that day and hour NO MAN KNOWS [PERFECT indicative]" not even Jesus, at that time).

But some sixty years after His resurrection/ascension, He had a writer write this:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His bond-servants [see 7:3] what things it behooves to take place in quickness [this phrase necessarily refers to the "future" aspects of the Book, like in 1:19c]. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John..."

and that "further information" on THAT Subject, was disclosed therein (in that Book of Revelation). In it, there are numerous time-stamps, day-amounts, and other "connections" (to other Scripture references) that enable one to lay it out on a framework, so to speak.

Matthew 24:36/Mark 13:32 are not worded like "no one CAN EVER know" or "no one WILL EVER know" or even "it is FORBIDDEN to know" or "IMPOSSIBLE to know"... It is using the "PERFECT indicative," so to translate it in such a way would be to CHANGE its meaning. It is not saying those.

"PERFECT tense" means it has been true and is true at the time spoken, and is true until further information changes that status. And I believe THAT is what Rev1:1 is exactly stating. [per the LATER 95ad writing of it, or thereabouts--like the SEQUENCE being shown in Matthew 22:7 (70ad events) and THEN Matthew 22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" necessarily comes AFTER those 70ad events... but Jesus was up in Heaven "after" the 70ad events... ;) ]
 
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TheDivineWatermark said:
At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse, it was true that "only God knows" (but of that day and hour NO MAN KNOWS [PERFECT indicative]" not even Jesus, at that time).

But some sixty years after His resurrection/ascension, He had a writer write this:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His bond-servants [see 7:3] what things it behooves to take place in quickness [this phrase necessarily refers to the "future" aspects of the Book, like in 1:19c]. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John..."

and that "further information" on THAT Subject, was disclosed therein (in that Book of Revelation). In it, there are numerous time-stamps, day-amounts, and other "connections" (to other Scripture references) that enable one to lay it out on a framework, so to speak.

Matthew 24:36/Mark 13:32 are not worded like "no one CAN EVER know" or "no one WILL EVER know" or even "it is FORBIDDEN to know" or "IMPOSSIBLE to know"... It is using the "PERFECT indicative," so to translate it in such a way would be to CHANGE its meaning. It is not saying those.

"PERFECT tense" means it has been true and is true at the time spoken, and is true until further information changes that status. And I believe THAT is what Rev1:1 is exactly stating. [per the LATER 95ad writing of it, or thereabouts--like the SEQUENCE being shown in Matthew 22:7 (70ad events) and THEN Matthew 22:8 "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" necessarily comes AFTER those 70ad events... but Jesus was up in Heaven "after" the 70ad events... ;) ]
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I don't have those notes in my Bible

doggone it

you would think they would have stuck em in, right?

as oyster already said, the OT never gave an exact time for the first coming either

and Noah didn't know. he was told when to hike it and so he did

you know, someone I once knew said you could interpret the Bible as you wished and everyone has a different interpretation

I raised an eyebrow but his words are strangely prophetic it seems

so

what date did you come up with?
 
He'll probably return on March 3, 2033. :P


I'm just kidding around, of course. But hey....then again....my guess is as good as anyone else's right?
 
7seasrekeyed said:
as oyster already said, the OT never gave an exact time for the first coming either
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I don't know what oyster believes, but I believe it provided an exact timeline "UNTO the Messiah the prince" (which precise timeline was concluded on the very day that He DID the Zech9:9 thing and SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [mentioned in the OP] (both re: "the city," which was an aspect of that specific "time-prophecy" provided in Daniel).

So that DID have to do with His [first] coming [unto Jerusalem/the city] (tho doesn't speak to His birth--but then, doesn't it make you wonder how the magi knew about "[we have seen] his star in the east and are come to worship him"... what made them venture such a trek, do you think? Random luck?? lol... Weren't they [the magi] a people whose history was associated with Daniel back in his time??)


[ps the final "WEEK [7-yrs]" is also factored in such a "precise" way, as I see it, just as the first 69 Wks were]
 
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I take God at His word. When no man and not even the angels know, only God, as God told Matthew to tell us, knows when Jesus will return, that's it.
I've been in discussions with acquaintances who will say the second coming occurred when Jesus returned to the earth alive three days after his crucifixion and ministered for 40 more days. And that the scripture in Matthew is telling us of that as a past narrative that was included in the scripture because the faith teachings were spoken word before they appeared in print.

Interesting pov though. I wonder how Jesus could return and walk about in the same territory where the elders of the temple would learn of it and not be attacked. People seeing a man they knew they had watched die under crucifixion walking about with the crucifixion scars upon himself, while continuing to minister the same teaching that caused the temple elders to want him dead would definitely have been brought to those elders attention.
 
Hewillcome2040 said:
Acts 1, shows that you can know by the means of the Holy Spirit.
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I can see what you're getting at, but I do not believe that "32ad" (Pentecost) was when they would first have access to that [particular piece of] "further information" [the Subject of Matt24:36/Mk13:32] (though surely [I AGREE] it requires the Spirit to illumine our minds to the truth)… See my Post #53 to see what I mean... where I point out that it was some 60 yrs later (95ad or thereabouts) that Jesus provided the "further information" on THIS Subject (the Subject being covered in Matt24:36/Mk13:32): https://christianchat.com/threads/c...and-time-of-christ-return.189557/post-4126202 … to where, when He spoke it, this was true (that "no man KNOWS [PERFECT indicative]" not even Jesus, only God the Father... but then the progressive revelation thing kicks in, and I believe this is referring to "what they were given to RECORD" in Scripture [like we see also in 1Cor2:7,10,12,13,16b which I believe is speaking of that which Jesus had said "the Spirit" will guide them into all the truth and I believe they thus recorded it for "us"], if you see what I mean. IOW, on Pentecost, there was no one around who could have disclosed the "when" of things [though the Spirit indeed came then--the text doesn't state that that particular point in time (Pentecost) is when they would suddenly "know" it all, if that makes sense.] The "further information" (on that Subject) wasn't supplied until 95ad, see. ;) OTHER "further information" was supplied BEFORE 95ad (ppl tend to ignore that part tho, LOL!)
 
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