What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well one of them Jesus says specifically says "this will happen THIS generation" the other says "until". Putting this in the future is 1 billion% eisegesis, you HAVE to add it. It does not say that. Again you have to break out charts and reference guides and other teachings to make His simple word say what you're proposing here. It doesn't say that, how does a future interpretation make sense in the light of Jesus saying things like "Don't weep for me, weep for your children", not to mention the FACT it is talking about the end of the "age" not world, and recorded history shows us this took place.

I already addressed the fact that I too believe it is saying "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (NOT the end of the WORLD) in my Post #957 on the previous page [pg 48, I think] (at the top of that post--see there--see if you can respond to those issues I put there):

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4122151

These things you're posting are a weak argument I reject. Think you have to stretch and add to Gods word to get it to fit your beliefs, I think that's a wrong handling of Gods word and I like the teachings that line up perfectly and don't make Jesus a liar.

I also had addressed the "this generation" issue... (in a diff post... I may have to find later... it's probably in this thread too LOL)

 

[Jimbone]

I had made a post covering the "THEN [G1534]" word in v.24 (which is a DIFFERENT "then" word, in some OTHER passages)... that THIS ONE is a SEQUENCE WORD only, with NO TIME-ELEMENT attached to it... (and that the "cometh" word is not in the Grk text), so it is saying "THEN [SEQUENTIALLY] the end" [following the 2nd LISTED item]; not "THEN [immediately/or, following-on-the-heels of that] the end" (No.)

... so if you agree that the first two LISTED items (v.23) are some 2000 yrs apart, then what is the problem with the NEXT LISTED item (v.24a) being 1000 yrs apart FROM THAT (from the second item LISTED)??

Plus it literally says after "then". "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet". So it says there will be a time between Christ coming and the end when He presents the perfected world with ALL enemies under Him. That's where we are now. Jesus is reigning King right now, His power putting everything under Him. Just like it says, and because you don't know the two witnesses were recorded the pre-trib rapture is true? Not a strong case in my opinion.

 

[Jimbone]

I already addressed the fact that I too believe it is saying "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (NOT the end of the WORLD) in my Post #957 on the previous page [pg 48, I think] (at the top of that post--see there--see if you can respond to those issues I put there):

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4122151



I also had addressed the "this generation" issue... (in a diff post... I may have to find later... it's probably in this thread too LOL)

Okay... well if the end of the age came, if the Mosaic age of the law and sacrifice is over, gone, done, never to return because we have a better covenant in Christ Jesus, then how in the world can the AoD ever take place? God's temple is gone, how can it be desolated? Also I will go back and read it now. I just kind of jumped in here and will go see if I understand the "issues" you're referring to, but in the meantime maybe you can address the whole there is no more temple dilemma.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to add (missed the "time-limit" to add): yes, HERE is what I'd put on THAT subject:

[quoting]

"But, this is not the only point of interest in this appendix to the prophecy. For the Lord has given us the positive proof, by the way in which verse 32 stands here, that "this generation" cannot mean a mere chronological space of thirty or even one hundred years, for it is brought in after the running out of Gentile times and the coming of the Son of man with power and glory, events still unfulfilled. Its force is moral; not exactly the nation of Israel but that Christ-rejecting race which then refused their Messiah as they do still. This will go on till all these solemn threats of judgment are accomplished. It is profitable to remark that here, not in doctrine or in practice only, but in these unfoldings of the future, the Lord pledges the impossibility of failing in His words. The Lord does not say that this generation "shall not pass away till the temple is destroyed or the city taken," but till all be fulfilled. Now, He had [JUST] introduced the subsequent treading down of Jerusalem to the end of Israel's trials at His appearing [in v.24!!] , and He declares that this generation shall not pass away till then; as indeed it is only then grace will form a new [future] generation, the generation [yet] to come. The more we hold fast the continuity of the stream of the prophecy, as distinguished from the crisis in Matthew and Mark, the greater will be seen to be the importance of this remark."

--William Kelly, Luke 21 Commentary

[end quoting; bold, underline, and brackets mine]

[also, same source]

"522a The "times of the nations" run from Nebuchadnezzar to the Apocalyptic head of the revived Roman empire (Revelation 13:1-10). It is a phrase to be distinguished from "fulness of the Gentiles" in Romans 11:25 […]"

[end quoting]



One must include v.24 in "what all" v.32's "ALL" is speaking of! But Preterism fails to take note of this, and disregards numerous "chronology" issues just like the "amill-teachings" are notorious for doing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Plus it literally says after "then". "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet". So it says there will be a time between Christ coming and the end when He presents the perfected world with ALL enemies under Him. That's where we are now. Jesus is reigning King right now, His power putting everything under Him. Just like it says, and because you don't know the two witnesses were recorded the pre-trib rapture is true? Not a strong case in my opinion.

So let me as you what I asked PlainWord:

Do YOU believe that Rev19 has already been fulfilled / taken place (say, in the 70ad events)??

I ask that, BECAUSE [of what I've put before]...

Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 is PARALLEL [time-wise] with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (which [two "punish" words] is separated by the time-period which FOLLOWS this FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in this Isa24 passage).

IOW, the "time-period" that FOLLOWS the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22 [/same as the point in time as Rev19!] is parallel with the 1000-yr MK age "time-period" (when THEREAFTER the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words is carried out [GWTj]).



If you do believe Rev19 took place in the 70ad events (surrounding), then this would be consistent with your viewing the "NOW" to be the 1000 yrs (time-period); but if you do not, then your viewpoint cannot explain this.

 

[Jimbone]

I already addressed the fact that I too believe it is saying "the END [SINGULAR] of the AGE [SINGULAR]" (NOT the end of the WORLD) in my Post #957 on the previous page [pg 48, I think] (at the top of that post--see there--see if you can respond to those issues I put there):

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4122151



I also had addressed the "this generation" issue... (in a diff post... I may have to find later... it's probably in this thread too LOL)

Okay I see a HUGE issue with your view, you say here,

" V.24 is speaking of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom"... that which Jesus had already spoken to them about also in Matt12:32, and which THEY *rightly* understood WHAT it is [its NATURE], "

and you completely add, "EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and this is the biggest hangup here, the same thing the Jews are still hung up on, the kingdom of God is NOT "EARTHLY", are you kidding here? You're waiting for Jesus to bring a kingdom you can point to and say "there it is"? Just exactly like He said it wasn't like. I'm in His kingdom right now with all others born again. Come on man you know this doesn't fit, and I do not find your argument here any more convincing, how can you not see how much crap you have to go to to make Jesus plain simple words means the opposite of what He's saying? Does the fact you have to have 3 commentaries, a codex, a guru, and decoder ring to "see" this perspective not send up any red flags? Have you ever put all that stuff to the side and just sat in the quit, prayed and read it with fresh eyes? At the very least you'd have to see that you could never come to a PTR just reading without all the added stuff. Try it for yourself,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay... well if the end of the age came, if the Mosaic age of the law and sacrifice is over, gone, done, never to return because we have a better covenant in Christ Jesus, then how in the world can the AoD ever take place? God's temple is gone, how can it be desolated? Also I will go back and read it now. I just kind of jumped in here and will go see if I understand the "issues" you're referring to, but in the meantime maybe you can address the whole there is no more temple dilemma.

Did I say "the end of the age" CAME, or did I point to the things that would take place WHEN it WILL take place?? Read my post again, that I pointed to (explaining this)

 

[Jimbone]

So let me as you what I asked PlainWord:

Do YOU believe that Rev19 has already been fulfilled / taken place (say, in the 70ad events)??

I ask that, BECAUSE [of what I've put before]...

Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 is PARALLEL [time-wise] with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (which [two "punish" words] is separated by the time-period which FOLLOWS this FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in this Isa24 passage).

IOW, the "time-period" that FOLLOWS the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isa24:21-22 [/same as the point in time as Rev19!] is parallel with the 1000-yr MK age "time-period" (when THEREAFTER the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words is carried out [GWTj]).



If you do believe Rev19 took place in the 70ad events (surrounding), then this would be consistent with your viewing the "NOW" to be the 1000 yrs (time-period); but if you do not, then your viewpoint cannot explain this.

I can't lie man, this is so confusing to me I don't even want to try to start with it, plus and as always, none of this is anything next to the whole temple being gone dilemma that no one will touch.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay I see a HUGE issue with your view, you say here,

" V.24 is speaking of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom"... that which Jesus had already spoken to them about also in Matt12:32, and which THEY *rightly* understood WHAT it is [its NATURE], "

and you completely add, "EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom" and this is the biggest hangup here, the same thing the Jews are still hung up on, the kingdom of God is NOT "EARTHLY", are you kidding here? You're waiting for Jesus to bring a kingdom you can point to and say "there it is"?

The text states, "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" not "UP IN Heaven"

They were still asking Jesus about the "WHEN" of it (its TIMING, not its NATURE) in Acts 1, after Jesus had just spent 40 days speaking to them... and His ANSWER to them had to do with its "TIMING" (not its NATURE--which they understood correctly, and He did not say, "NO you dummies, don't you GET IT YET?!")

Just exactly like He said it wasn't like. I'm in His kingdom right now with all others born again. Come on man you know this doesn't fit, and I do not find your argument here any more convincing, how can you not see how much crap you have to go to to make Jesus plain simple words means the opposite of what He's saying? Does the fact you have to have 3 commentaries, a codex, a guru, and decoder ring to "see" this perspective not send up any red flags? Have you ever put all that stuff to the side and just sat in the quit, prayed and read it with fresh eyes? At the very least you'd have to see that you could never come to a PTR just reading without all the added stuff. Try it for yourself,

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I can't lie man, this is so confusing to me I don't even want to try to start with it, plus and as always, none of this is anything next to the whole temple being gone dilemma that no one will touch.

Do you believe Rev19 has taken place yet? (that's a simple question, is it not?)



[for the readers: Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 = Isaiah 24:21-22's FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words... and there's a "time-period" which FOLLOWS that (FOLLOWS that FIRST [of 2] "PUNISH" word), in that text]


This has to do with "chronology" that Preterism won't touch, nor amill-teachings... too bad.

 

[Jimbone]

Did I say "the end of the age" CAME, or did I point to the things that would take place WHEN it WILL take place?? Read my post again, that I pointed to (explaining this)

Naw, I appreciate it, but what you are doing here with the multiple commentaries missed with scriptures from here there and everywhere mished-meshed together to form your view. I can make the bible say anything like that, and this for of biblical debate is a futile waste of time. You have to deal with each verse on it's own merit in the context it was given, what you're doing here is not that, and I don't want anything to do with it. I don't think any of these scripture are saying what you're saying they do, and on top of that I honestly don't think I'm saying what you think I am, but regardless I do appreciate the conversation and willingness to share. I'm out, and hope you have a great day.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Naw, I appreciate it, but what you are doing here with the multiple commentaries missed with scriptures from here there and everywhere mished-meshed together to form your view. I can make the bible say anything like that, and this for of biblical debate is a futile waste of time. You have to deal with each verse on it's own merit in the context it was given, what you're doing here is not that, and I don't want anything to do with it. I don't think any of these scripture are saying what you're saying they do, and on top of that I honestly don't think I'm saying what you think I am, but regardless I do appreciate the conversation and willingness to share. I'm out, and hope you have a great day.

One simple question then, to you:

Do you believe the disciple's question of Him in Matthew 24:3 (re: "the end of the age") was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 where Jesus had used that very phrase "the end of the age" IN THAT [earlier] CONTEXT/SETTING??

Yes or no?

 

[Jimbone]

One simple question then, to you:

Do you believe the disciple's question of Him in Matthew 24:3 (re: "the end of the age") was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 where Jesus had used that very phrase "the end of the age" IN THAT [earlier] CONTEXT/SETTING??

Yes or no?

"YES!!!" it comes before the AoD, and that happen in Gods temple, that is not here anymore. So do you believe God will dwell in another temple made with hands?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes I believe this has taken place. Now please answer the temple question. answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question answer the temple question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, so you believe Revelation 19 has already transpired. Armageddon is concluded in the 70ad events. Thus, Jesus is not "physically/bodily" returning to the earth. Do I grasp your viewpoint correctly??

[quoting my old post]

1 John 4:2-3a -
"2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ having come [perfect participle] in flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is that of the antichrist, [...]"
2 John 1:7 -
"7 For many deceivers have entered into the world, those not confessing Jesus Christ coming in flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

Do you see any distinction between the phrases:

--"having come [perfect participle] in flesh"; and

--"coming [present participle] in flesh"

I've responded to "the temple" question in past posts... don't have time to further speak on that here... got a meeting to head off to!

 

[DeighAnn]

To be honest it's not nearly as hard a fit with the text as you make it out to be, and there are a list of problems with your view as well, to me the one that is completely ignored every time I ask it, and so completely devastating to a coming "pre" type anything that it has to be ignored, is the Abomination of Desolation. How can this take place now? Is Gods temple on earth? Is God going to dwell in a earthly temple made with hands again? You are awfully bold with your "you need to read again"'s but the end of the age Jesus was talking about came right when He said it would (that generation) and I challenge you to read accounts of the 70 ad sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, judgement came to the covenant breakers. Seriously though while you're looking down your nose at us please tell us all, what temple will be desolated? How can these things take place in a future with no temple, and before you say one will be built, I tell you just because we built a Lego temple and call it Gods does not make it His. Gods temple served it's purpose and that age is over forever, NEVER to return. Kind of an impossible hurdle to jump brother. These thing took place already, and your hint of arrogance towards others is not cool.

Once again, I do not deny the sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, or the judgment that came. As for that being For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, THAT SHALL COME FROM GOD, nothing man could do could ever compare to what God will be bringing to the earth at that time.

How that temple will come about doesn't really concern me because it isn't a hurdle for God. It will be just as God says. I do not have to know how, just have to have the faith in the Word of God, and know it to be true. Flesh minds need those kinds of facts, faith lends to knowing it will all happen just as God tells us it will. I don't suppose you have read about the Millennial Temple in Ezekiel, long about 40 on, have you? Kinda looks like that statement "NEVER to return" has some holes in it.

It is not a hard fit, it is an impossible fit unless you are willing to render a bunch of the Word untrue. Satan is cast to earth, along with his angels. They will be here ON EARTH, just like they were before the flood of Noahs time. You "saying" that this has already happened is ???? not to mention impossible because we know what happens to the progeny of that mix by what has happened in the past. Maybe I missed all those articles. If I did, I will stop and start praying to the LORD GOD once again and ask for some help in my understanding of His Word. Maybe you could just pass on to me all the "writings" of the GIANTS that started inhabiting the earth, I guess you would put that around 71AD or so??? Where have they been hiding themselves since then?


Hostile?? call it righteous indignation. Saying there is NO PROPHECY that has not been fulfilled gets my ire up. I would be willing to be it doesn't make God all that happy.

 

[Melach]

Not as big a hole as God's temple being gone. Abomination of Desolation, hmmm? The two witnesses not being recorded is small by comparison. How is ANY of this going to happen when Gods temple is gone? MUCH bigger problem in my opinion. A much bigger hole if you ask me, but you're fine with that?

easy no problem. temple will be back tomorrow. next problem sir

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I've responded to "the temple" question in past posts... don't have time to further speak on that here... got a meeting to head off to!

Oh, yes, HERE IS ONE SUCH POST (or 2): Posts #882 and #883 (which are not "commentary" for the most part, but MY OWN POSTINGS, lol... [there might be one paragraph by Wm Kelly there, but that's it, but EVEN THERE *I placed MY OWN CORRELATING COMMENT* (in the BOLD) within his quote, so you could see MY POINTS on that, that I've BEEN MAKING]... NO ONE HAS ADDRESSED what I put in MY ACTUAL POSTS there):

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4115642



So, the "futurist" viewpoint is not DISGREEING that the 70ad events were ALSO being specifically addressed by Jesus! (I pointed that out)

 

[DeighAnn]

And the view he is speaking of fits the text just like that, it's your view that has to have charts and timelines, and make things like "truly I tell YOU(who He was speaking to THEN and THERE) that THIS generation will not pass before THESE thing take place", mean "Long from now far far away a distant people who you will never meet will have to deal with these things so kick back, oh yea and better write this down", then talk about some "IT ALL HAS TO BE TRUE. EXACTLY AS GOD WROTE IT". Really? Why are you so hostile, and since you're so keen on having questions answered I can't wait to hear your answer on the AoD in my last comment to you. Have a great day and chill a little. We can be nice to each other. It's allowed even when we disagree.

WHAT question was asked? WHAT generation would He be speaking of?
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
SO WHAT generation would He be speaking of? Did the "end of the world come" in 70AD and no one notice?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The "end" of this age will not be a question for anyone or for any part of this earth. EVERY KNEE shall bow. There are going to be MASSIVE CHANGES, in like EVERY THING, everyone. We will no longer be living in"IS", WE will be living in the "is to come".

 

[DeighAnn]

easy no problem. temple will be back tomorrow. next problem sir

Wasn't the first Sanctuary a "tent" Exodus 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

You are right, no problem. next.

 

[DeighAnn]

Actually Christ never told us to be ready for His coming. He told His disciples and people of His day. I wonder why they were supposed to watch and remain sober for an event that many on here think is still in our future, thousands of years into their future? Why would Christ tell people of the first century to watch and be ready for something that wouldn't happen for 100 or more generations? Maybe He didn't know when He was coming back or maybe He thought He was coming back soon but got delayed? Hmm. Or maybe, just maybe He did come back as He said He would and we didn't realize it because the nature of His return wasn't what we were expecting. Just a thought.

Because God was writing NOT ONLY FOR THAT AGE but for time eternal.