What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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You really need to STUDY the order of things and the timeline of events of the end times. But you can't, because you believe it is all over already and are only looking to "keep" what you think you know. I am not worried. WE WILL all know for sure. I am only writing this for anyone who may think there is any merit to what you say. Not saying it is not the TRUTH of what DID happen but it is completely false as to future prophesy, and that is the problem.
I don't have "so many questions" and you don't have SO many answers. You don't get to accept that one part is true therefore ok to throw out another part. IT ALL HAS TO BE TRUE. EXACTLY AS GOD WROTE IT IS EXACTLY HOW IT WILL HAPPEN. NOTHING LEFT OUT. Every single last detail will be PERFECT. PERFECT.
I'm guessing, then, that you believe Revelation 19, in its entirety, has already taken place (in the 70ad events), is that correct? This is what you believe?
[oh, and my other question was, how do you interpret the Revelation verse in 17:8 "[when they behold...] that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"?]
[oh, and my other question was, how do you interpret the Revelation verse in 17:8 "[when they behold...] that WAS, and IS NOT, and YET SHALL BE [FUTURE tense]"?]
No we are living in 1 Cor 15: 20-27
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
We are in the "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." part now.
To be honest it's not nearly as hard a fit with the text as you make it out to be, and there are a list of problems with your view as well, to me the one that is completely ignored every time I ask it, and so completely devastating to a coming "pre" type anything that it has to be ignored, is the Abomination of Desolation. How can this take place now? Is Gods temple on earth? Is God going to dwell in a earthly temple made with hands again? You are awfully bold with your "you need to read again"'s but the end of the age Jesus was talking about came right when He said it would (that generation) and I challenge you to read accounts of the 70 ad sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, judgement came to the covenant breakers. Seriously though while you're looking down your nose at us please tell us all, what temple will be desolated? How can these things take place in a future with no temple, and before you say one will be built, I tell you just because we built a Lego temple and call it Gods does not make it His. Gods temple served it's purpose and that age is over forever, NEVER to return. Kind of an impossible hurdle to jump brother. These thing took place already, and your hint of arrogance towards others is not cool.
20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
We are in the "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." part now.
To be honest it's not nearly as hard a fit with the text as you make it out to be, and there are a list of problems with your view as well, to me the one that is completely ignored every time I ask it, and so completely devastating to a coming "pre" type anything that it has to be ignored, is the Abomination of Desolation. How can this take place now? Is Gods temple on earth? Is God going to dwell in a earthly temple made with hands again? You are awfully bold with your "you need to read again"'s but the end of the age Jesus was talking about came right when He said it would (that generation) and I challenge you to read accounts of the 70 ad sacking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, judgement came to the covenant breakers. Seriously though while you're looking down your nose at us please tell us all, what temple will be desolated? How can these things take place in a future with no temple, and before you say one will be built, I tell you just because we built a Lego temple and call it Gods does not make it His. Gods temple served it's purpose and that age is over forever, NEVER to return. Kind of an impossible hurdle to jump brother. These thing took place already, and your hint of arrogance towards others is not cool.
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And the view he is speaking of fits the text just like that, it's your view that has to have charts and timelines, and make things like "truly I tell YOU(who He was speaking to THEN and THERE) that THIS generation will not pass before THESE thing take place", mean "Long from now far far away a distant people who you will never meet will have to deal with these things so kick back, oh yea and better write this down", then talk about some "IT ALL HAS TO BE TRUE. EXACTLY AS GOD WROTE IT". Really? Why are you so hostile, and since you're so keen on having questions answered I can't wait to hear your answer on the AoD in my last comment to you.
Have a great day and chill a little. We can be nice to each other. It's allowed even when we disagree.
And the view he is speaking of fits the text just like that, it's your view that has to have charts and timelines, and make things like "truly I tell YOU(who He was speaking to THEN and THERE) that THIS generation will not pass before THESE thing take place", mean "Long from now far far away a distant people who you will never meet will have to deal with these things so kick back, oh yea and better write this down", then talk about some "IT ALL HAS TO BE TRUE. EXACTLY AS GOD WROTE IT". Really? Why are you so hostile, and since you're so keen on having questions answered I can't wait to hear your answer on the AoD in my last comment to you.
Have a great day and chill a little. We can be nice to each other. It's allowed even when we disagree.In Acts 3, Peter is speaking to those "ye men of Israel" who he says "delivered up [Jesus], and denied Him in the presence of Pilate... and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life" and then in verse 17 Peter goes on to say, "...that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers" and then in v.19 says, "Repent ye, therefore, and be converted..." which some of them did, per 4:4 ('the number of the men [males (G435)] was about 5000').
I've mentioned in past posts that I believe an examination of Lk13:6 and Isa5:7 shows "the fig tree" to be something DISTINCT FROM "the vineyard" (which "is Israel"), and which was "PLANTED IN [his] vineyard [/Israel]"... which was the thing ('the fig tree' not the 'vineyard') that Jesus had "cursed" [i.e. not "the ppl"] in Mark 11:21 - "And Peter having remembered, says to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree that You cursed is dried up [/withered]."
So this has something more to do with something other than "Israel [the ppl] itself" but is something IN RELATION *to* that ("PLANTED IN his vineyard [/PLANTED IN Israel (but is not exactly "Israel ITSELF")]"), which there's an old study out there (and which I am inclined to lean toward believing) showing how that THAT ['the fig tree'] had more to do with "the-Law- / Law-observant- / Law-rulers/those-in-seat-of" (for lack of a better way of saying it, at the moment)… and this is what we see in Acts 4:1-3 (as opposed to what I'd just pointed out in Acts 4:4 re: the ppl), and which will also touch on the "future" aspects (per "the fig tree parable" in the Olivet Discourse [i.e. taking place in the future, specific, limited time period [the 7-yr trib] which will LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19 (parallel Dan7:27!/Dan2:34-35!)]).
I've mentioned in past posts that I believe an examination of Lk13:6 and Isa5:7 shows "the fig tree" to be something DISTINCT FROM "the vineyard" (which "is Israel"), and which was "PLANTED IN [his] vineyard [/Israel]"... which was the thing ('the fig tree' not the 'vineyard') that Jesus had "cursed" [i.e. not "the ppl"] in Mark 11:21 - "And Peter having remembered, says to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree that You cursed is dried up [/withered]."
So this has something more to do with something other than "Israel [the ppl] itself" but is something IN RELATION *to* that ("PLANTED IN his vineyard [/PLANTED IN Israel (but is not exactly "Israel ITSELF")]"), which there's an old study out there (and which I am inclined to lean toward believing) showing how that THAT ['the fig tree'] had more to do with "the-Law- / Law-observant- / Law-rulers/those-in-seat-of" (for lack of a better way of saying it, at the moment)… and this is what we see in Acts 4:1-3 (as opposed to what I'd just pointed out in Acts 4:4 re: the ppl), and which will also touch on the "future" aspects (per "the fig tree parable" in the Olivet Discourse [i.e. taking place in the future, specific, limited time period [the 7-yr trib] which will LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19 (parallel Dan7:27!/Dan2:34-35!)]).
And... what I'd wanted to add to my Post #957 on the previous page (made earlier today) was the posts I'd made back on Page 45 (that I've not seen adequate answer to), to go along with the points I made in that post (on pg 48, Post #957):
Post #882 & #883 of this thread (pg 45) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4115642
Post #882 & #883 of this thread (pg 45) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4115642
I had made a post covering the "THEN [G1534]" word in v.24 (which is a DIFFERENT "then" word, in some OTHER passages)... that THIS ONE is a SEQUENCE WORD only, with NO TIME-ELEMENT attached to it... (and that the "cometh" word is not in the Grk text), so it is saying "THEN [SEQUENTIALLY] the end" [following the 2nd LISTED item]; not "THEN [immediately/or, following-on-the-heels of that] the end" (No.)
... so if you agree that the first two LISTED items (v.23) are some 2000 yrs apart, then what is the problem with the NEXT LISTED item (v.24a) being 1000 yrs apart FROM THAT (from the second item LISTED)??
... so if you agree that the first two LISTED items (v.23) are some 2000 yrs apart, then what is the problem with the NEXT LISTED item (v.24a) being 1000 yrs apart FROM THAT (from the second item LISTED)??
I only have time for one more, then I have to scram.. I'm off to a meeting for a bit (won't be able to respond ATM):
Consider the following:
[quoting older posts]
Genesis 43 - [in the context of Joseph's 7-Year Famine]
3 But Judah replied, “The man [the one they sold into slavery (Gen45:4)] solemnly warned us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother [the youngest, Benjamin] is with you.’ [...]
5 But if you will not send him, we will not go; for the man told us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother is with you.’”
Genesis 44 -
23 But you said to your servants, ’Unless your younger brother comes down with you, you will not see my face again.’
26 But we answered, ‘We cannot go down there unless our younger brother goes with us. So if our younger brother is not with us, we cannot see the man.'
____________
Matthew 21:9 -
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Mark 11:9-10 -
And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.
Matthew 23:39 -
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Luke 13:35 -
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
[see also 1 Chronicles 5:1-2isv - "5:1 Here is a record of[a] the descendants of Reuben, Israel’s firstborn. (He was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s marriage bed, his birthright was transferred to the descendants of Israel’s son Joseph. As a result, Reuben is not enrolled in the genealogy according to the birthright. 2 Even though Judah became prominent among his relatives—that is, the Commander-in-chief will be his descendant—nevertheless the right of the firstborn went to Joseph.)" (see again verses at TOP)]
[and]
Recall what Jesus had said in Luke 19:14 (and how this is reflective of Joseph's FIRST dream [re: Jesus' FIRST coming/advent] and what is stated by his brothers in Gen37:8),
"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation [G4242 - presbeia] after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to rule over us.’."
["Joseph's SECOND dream" correlating with Jesus' SECOND coming/advent and circumstances surrounding that (see passage below)]
[...<snip>...]
(see Rev12:1,13b and context [with 13b saying "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH [i.e. prior to this mid-trib point in time] the MALE [G730 - arsen/arren]"... no "child" word in this verse])]
[end quoting]
____________
Then, I've mentioned how in the SECOND YR of Joseph's 7-yr famine (Gen45:1,6), was this done: "and there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (similar to the wording found in Ezekiel 39:7's Gog-Magog War events, which I mentioned correlates with the future "SEAL 2 WARS" fairly early in the future 7-yr trib yrs (with Ezek being in order/sequence, and with "the dry bones prophecy" showing to take place in STAGES... so that the "time-prophecies" I pointed out also on Page 45 of this thread, are simply the "stage-setting" aspect of the future stages yet to come, relating to Israel [where in 39:7 He again will call them "My people Israel"])
Back later tonight. Have a great day, y'all!
Consider the following:
[quoting older posts]
Genesis 43 - [in the context of Joseph's 7-Year Famine]
3 But Judah replied, “The man [the one they sold into slavery (Gen45:4)] solemnly warned us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother [the youngest, Benjamin] is with you.’ [...]
5 But if you will not send him, we will not go; for the man told us, ‘You will not see my face again unless your brother is with you.’”
Genesis 44 -
23 But you said to your servants, ’Unless your younger brother comes down with you, you will not see my face again.’
26 But we answered, ‘We cannot go down there unless our younger brother goes with us. So if our younger brother is not with us, we cannot see the man.'
____________
Matthew 21:9 -
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
Mark 11:9-10 -
And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.
Matthew 23:39 -
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Luke 13:35 -
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
[see also 1 Chronicles 5:1-2isv - "5:1 Here is a record of[a] the descendants of Reuben, Israel’s firstborn. (He was the firstborn, but because he defiled his father’s marriage bed, his birthright was transferred to the descendants of Israel’s son Joseph. As a result, Reuben is not enrolled in the genealogy according to the birthright. 2 Even though Judah became prominent among his relatives—that is, the Commander-in-chief will be his descendant—nevertheless the right of the firstborn went to Joseph.)" (see again verses at TOP)]
[and]
Recall what Jesus had said in Luke 19:14 (and how this is reflective of Joseph's FIRST dream [re: Jesus' FIRST coming/advent] and what is stated by his brothers in Gen37:8),
"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation [G4242 - presbeia] after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to rule over us.’."
["Joseph's SECOND dream" correlating with Jesus' SECOND coming/advent and circumstances surrounding that (see passage below)]
[...<snip>...]
(see Rev12:1,13b and context [with 13b saying "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH [i.e. prior to this mid-trib point in time] the MALE [G730 - arsen/arren]"... no "child" word in this verse])]
[end quoting]
____________
Then, I've mentioned how in the SECOND YR of Joseph's 7-yr famine (Gen45:1,6), was this done: "and there STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" (similar to the wording found in Ezekiel 39:7's Gog-Magog War events, which I mentioned correlates with the future "SEAL 2 WARS" fairly early in the future 7-yr trib yrs (with Ezek being in order/sequence, and with "the dry bones prophecy" showing to take place in STAGES... so that the "time-prophecies" I pointed out also on Page 45 of this thread, are simply the "stage-setting" aspect of the future stages yet to come, relating to Israel [where in 39:7 He again will call them "My people Israel"])
Back later tonight. Have a great day, y'all!
Well one of them Jesus says specifically says "this will happen THIS generation" the other says "until". Putting this in the future is 1 billion% eisegesis, you HAVE to add it. It does not say that. Again you have to break out charts and reference guides and other teachings to make His simple word say what you're proposing here. It doesn't say that, how does a future interpretation make sense in the light of Jesus saying things like "Don't weep for me, weep for your children", not to mention the FACT it is talking about the end of the "age" not world, and recorded history shows us this took place. These things you're posting are a weak argument I reject. Think you have to stretch and add to Gods word to get it to fit your beliefs, I think that's a wrong handling of Gods word and I like the teachings that line up perfectly and don't make Jesus a liar.
