What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

Absolutely · Jan 2, 2020

What a fool you have shown us all to be. Mutated locusts? LOL. You are literalizing figurative writing and are too ignorant to see it. Foolish people follow foolish doctrines. The Roman soldiers brought with them weapons called "scorpion machines" pictured below.

View attachment 209220

Titus brought them and they were only used during the final 5 months of the siege. These scorpion machines shot darts, sometimes burning darts over the wall. They were not used against the vegetation. They were only shot at the wicked, unbelieving Jews inside the city. They seldom hit anybody and were not usually fatal but they hurt like heck. These darts, as ineffective as they were, scared the crap out of people, which was likely the purpose. According to Rev 9:5, they tormented those without the seal of God, which was everybody in Jerusalem in 70 AD as all the Christians fled prior to Titus' arrival.

According to Josephus, conditions inside Jerusalem during the siege were so bad the people would cry out for death each night hoping they would not awaken to the same misery. This is in perfect fulfillment of Rev 9:6. But you wouldn't know this because you haven't read Joseph. Instead you are content with your futurist and false narrative.

You and I are lightyears apart.
You have not reconciled your position.
You have instead gone into fantastic reframing of the book of revelation.

Shipwrecks to explain oceans and rivers being turned to blood,and roman crossbows to explain the flying locusts.

In your mind,God told crossbows not to eat any vegetation.
You are making stuff up big time.

Absolutely · Jan 2, 2020

iamsoandso said:

I nailed him with the locust and oceans of blood.
It never happened and blows a hole in his deal you could sail an aircraft carrier through.

Absolutely · Jan 2, 2020

GaryA said:

BTW
postribs have a interesting concept. They too see Jesus meeting his saints in the air( no complete bodily standing on the earth until the saints join him in descending to the earth).

IOW they see him in the air,and join him in the air.....not earth.

So,what is this? ;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
.......DURING THE TRIB!

oooops

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

Nope. I speak only the truth. It is you and all futurists with the major problems. Your views make these verses all lies:

Mat 16: 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Mat 23: 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Mat 24: 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Mat 26: 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

2 Thes 1: 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev 22: 12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work...
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

These are just some of the verses you view dishonors and here's how.

Your view calls Christ a liar in that none of those standing there would see Him return.
Your view has nothing happening to those who killed Christ even though He directly aimed His wrath at them.
Your view calls Paul a liar in that none one of those Thessalonians ever got rest from their persecution.
Your view calls John a liar in that the things in Revelation did not take place shortly and the time was not at hand. Your view also insults Christ as He said He was coming quickly but according to you He still hasn't come and its been nearly 2,000 years.

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

Someone did. Josephus records all the events of the GT.

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

It's astonishing how much you write about the Word without the slightest understanding of it. You really are embarrassing yourself but don't even realize it. Did you not read the book of Joel? Locusts are often used to describe a foreign invading army. The scorpion machines were being towed backwards by the horses in Rev 9. 90% of the Roman legions were from the Euphrates and were not Roman. They had long dark hair, like women, with faces of men. They wore breastplates of iron and rode chariots.

In Revelation, John is simply borrowing Joel's description. John is using well known Jewish writings that his audience would understand but any Roman seeing his writings would not. The locusts below were an army, which looked like, and acted like locusts devouring everything in their path just as the Romans did in 70 AD. Here Joel says the locusts were a nation (which came up) against (God's) land.

Joel 1:
4 What the chewing locust left, the swarming locust has eaten;
What the swarming locust left, the crawling locust has eaten;
And what the crawling locust left, the consuming locust has eaten.
5 Awake, you drunkards, and weep;
And wail, all you drinkers of wine,
Because of the new wine,
For it has been cut off from your mouth.
6 For a nation has come up against My land,
Strong, and without number;
His teeth are the teeth of a lion,
And he has the fangs of a fierce lion.
7 He has laid waste My vine,
And ruined My fig tree;
He has stripped it bare and thrown it away;
Its branches are made white.

Joel 2:
25 “So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten,
The crawling locust,
The consuming locust,
And the chewing locust,
My great army which I sent among you.
26 You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
And praise the name of the Lord your God,
Who has dealt wondrously with you;
And My people shall never be put to shame.
27 Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel:
I am the Lord your God
And there is no other.
My people shall never be put to shame.

The next passage in Joel 2 Peter invokes in Acts 2 clearly stating the days Joel described were upon them right then and now. Peter is NOT talking about an event thousands of years into his future!!

Joel 2:
28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Acts 2:
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days

The spirit that was poured out on them was the holy spirit!! Joel predicted it and Peter announced it had happened. Then we see how God protects the righteous in Jerusalem from His GT judgment. Because you have zero knowledge of history, let me inform you that the massive Christian church in Jerusalem, where James was its leader, was located on Mt. Zion. Thus the GT was a localized event to Israel and Jerusalem and NOT THE WHOLE PLANET!!

30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

PlainWord · Jan 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

LOL
Read it for yourself;
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months

Wow,Now insert "CROSSBOWS" (WHICH YOU HAVE DONE) in place of "locusts"

Totally weird what you do to the word of God.

Found your mutated locusts, LOL? This is what you are expecting?? Or this perhaps?

Or maybe this???

Don't hold your breath!!! Dude, you seriously crack me up.

DeighAnn · Jan 2, 2020

Certainly brings light to the differences between of the flesh and seeing only the "letter" and of the spirit and seeing "the truth being conveyed". One thing for sure, we will all bow a knee. Excellent example of how the "debate" is futile.

Ecclesiastes 1:8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be and that which is done is that which shall be done and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

We are able to "see" what is coming by what has already happened. So, yes, the temple was destroyed, people wishing for death, and all the rest but none of that stops the fact that until Israel became a nation once again, all prophecy would not be fulfilled until that generation.

Questions When was it Satan and the 7000 angels were cast from heaven? What received the deadly wound? How did Satan fix it? When was it Satan was standing in the temple proclaiming to be God? When was it Satan was worshipped by the whole world? Who were the two witnesses? When did they lie dead for 3 1/2 days? When were they raised from the dead? Where was the pit in which Satan was bound? When was he loosed for a short season? When was all evil cast into the lake of fire? Where is the New Jerusalem? Where is the river that can't be crossed? When was it the world had one money, one education, one political system, one religion? When were those who were alive and remained "changed" so that they would never die? How is evil still present? When did fire from God come down and devour? How is it people are still dying? and on and on and on.

A few examples of truth

Mat 16: 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
AND YES, once Christ was crucified, buried and risen, THERE WERE THOSE WHO WERE STILL ALIVE, AND who DID NOT TASTE OF DEATH, AND SAW AND SPOKE AND ATE WITH HIM. He was not the "flesh" servant of 3 days before. He was in His glorified body.

Matthew 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matthew 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
AND YES, what did happen to that generation? The temple was destroyed.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
AND YES, THIS GENERATION, the generation to which CHRIST WAS SPEAKING TO WAS "THE SIGN OF THY COMING AND THE END OF THE WORLD" The world did not end then did it?

Mat 26: 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
AND YES, ONCE CHRIST WAS RISEN, we either DIE and see Him at the right hand of the Power, or we will be alive when He returns in the clouds.

2 Thes 1: 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

AND YES, God will render unto every man what that man sows. And we will receive rest. And those who do not know God or obey the gospel will get everything they have coming, and God is a consuming fire.

I could go on and on but what would be the point. We all see as we chose to see. All it takes is "truth" and a little twist to render Gods Word void.

DeighAnn · Jan 2, 2020

And its hasn't even been 2 days FROM GODS PERSPECTIVE.

iamsoandso · Jan 2, 2020

The judgment of God is that all were concluded in sin and so Jesus was born as Savior for those who would receive it. Now if the Judgment of God began at the house of God what will be the outcome of those who disobey the Gospel? https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/4.htm

So there is that that began at the House of God and that same to those who disobey the Gospel begun to unfold in time. Again it began at the House of God and is ongoing yet some see themselves immune of it and set it in the past while others set it into the far future and see themselves immune of the same Judgment. Many say that if they were born in the days of it they would not have done the things they see them to have done as if the Lords day is not before them but the head that received the deadly wound they have healed.

The head that was healed stands up and speaks like a man that is the image of the head of gold the silver,brass the iron and clay it is sixty cubits and six and and the head that was healed has stood up like this same man. The judgment began at the House of God and is in the midst of unfolding and when the fire comes it will be as the deluge in the six hundredth year of Noah .

GaryA · Jan 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

I have done no such thing.

The intent of my statement is very directly straight-forward - there is only one more 'coming'/'return' of Christ - and, all end-of-the-age prophecy will occur, in proper order, when He "shows up" to begin His 1000-year reign on the Earth.

GaryA · Jan 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

BTW
postribs have a interesting concept. They too see Jesus meeting his saints in the air( no complete bodily standing on the earth until the saints join him in descending to the earth).

IOW they see him in the air,and join him in the air.....not earth.

So,what is this? ;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
.......DURING THE TRIB!

oooops

Nope.

Those verses are indeed referring to the Rapture - which takes place at the Second Coming of Christ (first "sub-event" after He appears) - at least 3.5 years after the GT is over.

GaryA · Jan 2, 2020

GaryA said:

Hmmmmmmmm - crickets...

GaryA · Jan 2, 2020

GaryA said:

Hmmmmmmmm - crickets...

PlainWord · Jan 3, 2020

DeighAnn said:

So many false assumptions here. IT doesn't surprise me that a futurist would have so many questions because the futurist view has none of these answers hence they look for these things to occur in the future. Let me try to correct some of these false assumptions.

Israel obviously became a nation in 1948 and Jerusalem was theirs again in 1967. However, there was no prophesy of this in the Bible. Some futurists point to Mat 24, "generation of the fig tree" as the prophesy but this view is wrong. John the Baptist made clear in Mat 3 that the ax was already being laid to their tree. Jesus confirms this with His parable of the fig tree that any tree not bearing fruit would be destroyed. The wicked Jews of the first century were the tree bearing no fruit. They were destroyed. They were the wicked and perverse generation that both Jesus and Peter spoke about.

Not sure where you get 7000 from but the war which broke out in heaven happened in late 66 AD as recorded by Josephus. Christ returned to Heaven and shortly after, war broke out per Dan 7 and 12 and Rev 20.

The Roman empire received the deadly wound in 68 AD at the death of Nero, the 6th head. When Nero died, Rome fell into a dark year of brutal civil war and 3 emperors fought for control. All three were killed. When Vespasian took over in late 69 AD, the beast was healed. Nero died by stab to the neck (head area).

It wasn't Satan, it was the man of sin - Titus, the prince to come in Dan 9. Titus was worshiped in the temple as it was on fire by all his men.

I believe they were Peter and Paul who were both in Rome at the time. Since Rome and Jerusalem were in an adulterous affair, both cities were of the same spirit and flesh. They were both killed around 67 AD and were resurrected 3 days later in the resurrection of the Just which was recorded by Tacticus.

Satan's deceptive influence was bound for a long period of time (1000 years). During this time he was unable to "deceive the nations." Christianity grew for 1,000 years and became the #1 dominant faith in the whole world, as it still is today. I believe Satan has been released and it out there deceiving the nations right now.

The disbelieving Jews were literally killed in the fires of Jerusalem and spiritually thrown into the Lake of Fire.

We are the new Jerusalem. It is not a literally city to be seen on earth. John saw it in the spirit. The gates are named after the 12 disciples and Christ is it's chief cornerstone, the stone the builder's rejected. The kingdom came without observation just as Jesus predicted.

When Israel revolted, Nero ordered that Israel could no longer use its own currency, which it had been given exception to use prior to the revolt. After the revolt, all of the Roman empire had to use Roman coins to transact any business. The coins had the image of Nero and declared him god. This was an insult to all Jews.

When Christ returned in 70 AD. It was spiritual death that we would no longer experience. Spiritual Death = Separation from God. This used to happen to everyone as they went to Hades. Now we go straight to Heaven upon our physical death. This is what changed in an instant.

Evil was never told to vanish in our realm. Satan was prevent from deceiving, not from influencing evil.

Personally I think this is about to happen when our age ends. I believe the wicked of this world will soon be held accountable.

PlainWord · Jan 3, 2020

Heb 9 makes clear it is appointed for all men to die, then comes judgment. There is no prophesy of physical death ending. Isa 65 contains compare and contrast language. During the siege, babies were dying shortly after birth. Their world was at war. Death was everywhere. For the next 60 years lions would lie with lambs metaphorically. There would be peace. Men would live out their full lives.

You think this fulfilled Mat 16???? Read it again.

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

You think this happened at Christ resurrection? If Christ already came in His kingdom then, why are you still looking for Him to come a third time?

The world was not said to end. It was the age which was to end. You are quoting from a bad translation. Look at the text in Young's Literal Translation.

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

It was their age which was to end and Josephus acknowledges it.

Paul was not addressing us, 2000 years into his future. He was addressing the first century church at Thessalonika. They were to receive rest from their tribulations. And they did when all the wicked Jews who had been persecuting them perished in the great tribulation of Jerusalem.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 3, 2020

PlainWord said:

I agree that the text says "the end [SINGULAR] of the age [SINGULAR]" (the one they were standing in and speaking out from [<--I'll make another post related to that aspect, later]; and which their Q of Him here in v.3 was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50... when the angels will "REAP" and when the "WHEAT harvest" will take place (of which, I believe "the 144,000" [future] are "the firstfruit"... in connection with the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23, that of v.17--having to do with the "WHEAT harvest"--this hasn't taken place YET! V.24 is speaking of "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom"... that which Jesus had already spoken to them about also in Matt12:32, and which THEY *rightly* understood WHAT it is [its NATURE], they just did not understand its TIMING [and this is how Jesus answered them even in Acts 1 at the time of His "VISIBLE ascension"--as to its TIMING, not its NATURE which they understood correctly])

So your viewpoint has not sufficiently addressed some of the following issues I've raised in past posts, which I will only briefly OUTLINE below:

1) [Jesus spoke specifically of] "ABOMINATION [SINGULAR] of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Dan12:11 SINGULAR "be set up [H5414]" and the passages that parallel this, I've referred to)

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4107131

1a. Daniel was told he will "stand in thy lot [be resurrected to stand again on the earth] AT THE END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the days just referred to in that context, Dan12:6-7,1, etc which parallel other passages]"

2) SEQUENCE issues re: 70ad events

https://christianchat.com/threads/d...interpreted-in-my-opinion.181021/post-3789313

3) SEQUENCE issues with Matt22:7 and 8...
with v.7 paralleling the 70ad events like Lk21:23,20 and what Jesus had said in Lk19:42-44 (ALL THREE having to do with "the city/Jerusalem" / 70ad [as in the "70 Wks prophecy"]); whereas v.8 parallels the LATER-[AFTER-70ad-events]-DISCLOSED ("THEN saith he to") 95ad "[The] Revelation," where v.1 tells us that the FUTURE aspects of the Book must come to pass "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (NOT unfold over some 2000 yrs and NOT take place immediately [ADVERB]) and is that which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth Rev19--this is CONSISTENT with how Lk21 said that the 70ad events must take place BEFORE "the beginning of birth PANGS" and those are parallel with the SEALS which Jesus will open SEAL #1 following a "searching judgment" (Rev5:4) and when He will "STAND to JUDGE" which hasn't taken place yet)

I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint (Preterism).

DeighAnn · Jan 3, 2020

PlainWord said:

Then Satan would have been bound for the Lords Day and would have been loosed and Judgment day would have taken place and all evil would have gone into the lake of fire and the New Jerusalem would be here on earth. So as far as false assumptions they are all on your part. I do understand why you can not see the Spiritual truths given in the Word of God as all you see is what MAN has recorded. Hopefully God will open them soon.

DeighAnn · Jan 3, 2020

PlainWord said:

Once again, you have no eyes for prophecy. You want to believe there is no future prophecy, ok. We who do know that God uses past events to foretell future ones. You don't believe this and so are stuck thinking "it has all already happened" though if it had life on earth would not be as it is now. What 1000 yrs was it that there was NO EVIL on earth while Satan was bound?

DeighAnn · Jan 3, 2020

PlainWord said:

Once again, yes it happened by it did not ALL happen so it has not all been fulfilled so it can't have been past. Su[er simple for those with eyes to see. No one is disputing what happen in back then. NO ONE. You just can't see the truth of the future of it.

What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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