Not By Works
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2 Timothy 2:14-17 14Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
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Cool....and the bible teaches a dual usage of sanctification....positionally and eternally in Christ is 1st....the 2nd as you describe....an ongoing process subject to growth, maturity, transformation dia study and subject successes and or failures, but salvation, justification, positional salctification and the sealing by the H.S. are all eternally secure in Christ!
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DoY - Dcontroversial doesn't believe that ongoing sin can have any effect on the eternal security once someone has initially accepted Christ. So once you are saved, your behaviour from that point could be the worst of the worst (even worse than before your conversion) but you would still be granted access into heaven. Because he and others believe in Once Saved Always Saved which is positionally given AT A POINT IN TIME, ONCE AND FOREVER.
Therefore in order to maintain this position they say nobody can EVER draw back from God (even of their own accord), no-one can ever fall into Apostasy. And when presented with gospel scriptures showing that this is possible, you have all sort of creativity occurring and word play (any thing from the Greek doesn't mean this but it means that, or very creative solutions to the problem).
There are many on this forum who think in either the same way or very similar. We have even come across people saying that it is not necessary to CONTINUE to BELIEVE. Can you imagine.
So welcome to the forum. Be prepared to fight the good fight of faith.
Therefore in order to maintain this position they say nobody can EVER draw back from God (even of their own accord), no-one can ever fall into Apostasy. And when presented with gospel scriptures showing that this is possible, you have all sort of creativity occurring and word play (any thing from the Greek doesn't mean this but it means that, or very creative solutions to the problem).
There are many on this forum who think in either the same way or very similar. We have even come across people saying that it is not necessary to CONTINUE to BELIEVE. Can you imagine.
So welcome to the forum. Be prepared to fight the good fight of faith.
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I have a Strong's expanded exhaustive concordance of the Bible and Pisteuo #4100 says - to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ). It goes on to say, Pisteuo means not just to believe, but also to be persuaded of; and hence, to place confidence in, to trust, and signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon. You and others who promote salvation by faith + works seem to be very fond of the Vines definition - "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender" and there is a reason for that. Now allow me to break it down for you.
John 1:12 is attached with "a personal surrender to Him" in Vine's definition. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. There is the personal surrender to Him. When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance in Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification (Acts 13:39; Romans 5:1) and that is the ROOT of salvation.
The FRUIT would be living by or "out of" faith, as we see 2 Corinthians 5:7 attached with "a conduct inspired by such surrender" in Vine's definition, which reads - For we walk/live by faith and not by sight. This is our continued walk with the Lord by which by or "out of" faith, believers bear fruit/produce works. So faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and "a conduct inspired by surrender" which FOLLOWS and produces good works would be the FRUIT. You are using the Vines definition to mix cause and effect/fruit of faith with the essence of faith and the end result is salvation by faith + works.
So to believe in Christ unto salvation is to have faith in/trust in/reliance in/confidence in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which "follows" is WORKS. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. *Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the fruit/actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
*Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I was also confused about this and basically "defined" faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the fruit/actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.
John 1:12 is attached with "a personal surrender to Him" in Vine's definition. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. There is the personal surrender to Him. When we choose to believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation (Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8) we are entrusting our spiritual well being to Christ, along with placing confidence, trust and reliance in Him for salvation. That would be a personal surrender to Him, resulting in justification (Acts 13:39; Romans 5:1) and that is the ROOT of salvation.
The FRUIT would be living by or "out of" faith, as we see 2 Corinthians 5:7 attached with "a conduct inspired by such surrender" in Vine's definition, which reads - For we walk/live by faith and not by sight. This is our continued walk with the Lord by which by or "out of" faith, believers bear fruit/produce works. So faith in Christ is the ROOT of salvation and "a conduct inspired by surrender" which FOLLOWS and produces good works would be the FRUIT. You are using the Vines definition to mix cause and effect/fruit of faith with the essence of faith and the end result is salvation by faith + works.
So to believe in Christ unto salvation is to have faith in/trust in/reliance in/confidence in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Obedience which "follows" is WORKS. The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. *Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the fruit/actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief.
*Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I was also confused about this and basically "defined" faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do. If you believe in/have faith in Christ unto salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief/faith (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the fruit/actions/works are NOT INHERENT in the belief/faith.
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I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people - not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." (Deuteronomy 17:7;19:19;21:21;22:21;22:21,24;24:7)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers no male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 6:9-11
The Holy Spirit through Paul. No longer interested in Talmud, religious traditions, be they Jewish or Christian, he is interested in changed people IN REALITY brought from sin to sanctification by the grace and power of God. Circumcision is of the heart in this everlasting covenant. Anyone whose heart is uncircumcised will be cut of from his people; he has broken the covenant.
He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:28,29
I am interested in the church being presented to Christ as a pure virgin. That's what Paul was so extremely concerned with. False doctrines by which people pretend they are "pure virgins" already are in league with Satan's purposes in the earth.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." (Deuteronomy 17:7;19:19;21:21;22:21;22:21,24;24:7)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers no male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13; 6:9-11
The Holy Spirit through Paul. No longer interested in Talmud, religious traditions, be they Jewish or Christian, he is interested in changed people IN REALITY brought from sin to sanctification by the grace and power of God. Circumcision is of the heart in this everlasting covenant. Anyone whose heart is uncircumcised will be cut of from his people; he has broken the covenant.
He is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:28,29
I am interested in the church being presented to Christ as a pure virgin. That's what Paul was so extremely concerned with. False doctrines by which people pretend they are "pure virgins" already are in league with Satan's purposes in the earth.
It's not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT. John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.
Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.
1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
This sounds very arrogant and you are not the judge here.
If your only continued purpose here is to pervert the gospel by distorting Pisteuo, then you might as well leave. If you are ready to wake up and accept the truth, then feel free to stay. BTW: So where do you draw the line in the sand in regards to obtaining salvation based on having sufficiently surrendered to Christ “enough” and your life inspired by such surrender “measures up” according to your pet definition and personal understanding of Pisteuo which led you to create the make believe word, "Faithing?"
Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.
1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
This sounds very arrogant and you are not the judge here.
If your only continued purpose here is to pervert the gospel by distorting Pisteuo, then you might as well leave. If you are ready to wake up and accept the truth, then feel free to stay. BTW: So where do you draw the line in the sand in regards to obtaining salvation based on having sufficiently surrendered to Christ “enough” and your life inspired by such surrender “measures up” according to your pet definition and personal understanding of Pisteuo which led you to create the make believe word, "Faithing?"
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Hebrews 12 -
God Disciplines His Sons
4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons:
“My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,
nor faint being reproved by Him.
6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves,
and He scourges every son whom He receives.
7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[note this does not say, "then you have lost your salvation [or forfeited it]"]
[edit: going to go find my last post to add here, too]
See especially the bottom half of this post:
https://christianchat.com/threads/awake-to-righteousness-and-dont-sin.189369/post-4116659
God Disciplines His Sons
4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons:
“My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,
nor faint being reproved by Him.
6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves,
and He scourges every son whom He receives.
7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[note this does not say, "then you have lost your salvation [or forfeited it]"]
[edit: going to go find my last post to add here, too]
See especially the bottom half of this post:
https://christianchat.com/threads/awake-to-righteousness-and-dont-sin.189369/post-4116659
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Yes, we should not quarrel. Quarreling is not productive. But taking a stand on words is sometimes necessary. For example, the apostles John took a stand about false words many times. "if we say we have no sin...", "if we say that we have not sinned..", If we say we know Him, and don't keep His commands..." etc. Those are all critiques of false WORDS.
WIth that said, the manner in which stands are sometimes taken in this forum are quarrelsome, so indeed the verse that Calibob posted is relevant for some of what has been said.
WIth that said, the manner in which stands are sometimes taken in this forum are quarrelsome, so indeed the verse that Calibob posted is relevant for some of what has been said.
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I will also add this, which is VERY relevant.
Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
This verse says the chastening that the Lord exercises on His children yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness. So if I understand the Bible correctly, God's people are being sanctified by the Lord. They are not stagnant pools of water, but rivers of Living Water flow out of them.
Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
This verse says the chastening that the Lord exercises on His children yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness. So if I understand the Bible correctly, God's people are being sanctified by the Lord. They are not stagnant pools of water, but rivers of Living Water flow out of them.
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Psalm 51:6 Surely You desire truth in the inmost being;
You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
7Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones You have crushed rejoice.
9Hide Your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquities.
You teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
7Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones You have crushed rejoice.
9Hide Your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquities.
here is a question that none of you will answer-
if a certain amount or certain type of sin will disqualify one from salvation, what type and/or how many??
I mean, how can one say that " God is good" or " God is love" when one ( like you) that pushes a belief system that says " God will rip your name out the Book of Life if you sin too much, or too often, but God will NOT tell you exactly what or how many".
it's just what all religion is- a control system based on fear mongering.
if a certain amount or certain type of sin will disqualify one from salvation, what type and/or how many??
I mean, how can one say that " God is good" or " God is love" when one ( like you) that pushes a belief system that says " God will rip your name out the Book of Life if you sin too much, or too often, but God will NOT tell you exactly what or how many".
it's just what all religion is- a control system based on fear mongering.
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Correct; however, since scripture also states "quench not the Spirit" and "grieve not the Holy Spirit of God...," then it must be POSSIBLE for a believer/saint/Christian to do... wouldn't you say? And if one is doing either of those things, they are not also, at the same time, having "the rivers of Living Water flow out of them"... This does not mean they've lost or forfeited salvation (which is not possible).