Not By Works

[Discern]

here is a question that none of you will answer-

if a certain amount or certain type of sin will disqualify one from salvation, what type and/or how many??

I mean, how can one say that " God is good" or " God is love" when one ( like you) that pushes a belief system that says " God will rip your name out the Book of Life if you sin too much, or too often, but God will NOT tell you exactly what or how many".

it's just what all religion is- a control system based on fear mongering.

To work and run, the Law commands
But gives us neither feet nor hands
but better hope the Gospel brings
it bids us fly and gives us wings.

John Bunyan

 

[Discern]

Correct; however, since scripture also states "quench not the Spirit" and "grieve not the Holy Spirit of God...," then it must be POSSIBLE for a believer/saint/Christian to do... wouldn't you say? And if one is doing either of those things, they are not also, at the same time, having "the rivers of Living Water flow out of them"... This does not mean they've lost or forfeited salvation (which is not possible).

There have been many times I have quenched the Spirit. Even for long periods of time. Then God chastened me, broke my bones or else drew me with cords of love. If He hadn't, I never would have gotten to this point. Through many dangers, toils, and snares I have already come. Tis grace that brought me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home

 

[Discern]

Correct; however, since scripture also states "quench not the Spirit" and "grieve not the Holy Spirit of God...," then it must be POSSIBLE for a believer/saint/Christian to do... wouldn't you say? And if one is doing either of those things, they are not also, at the same time, having "the rivers of Living Water flow out of them"... This does not mean they've lost or forfeited salvation (which is not possible).

Even during the times of my greatest struggles, the rivers of Living Water were still flowing, friend.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Even during the times of my greatest struggles, the rivers of Living Water were still flowing, friend.

Yeah, but what I'm talking about is the thing I was discussing with Chris1975 yesterday, regarding his mentioning 1 Corinthians 15:23, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame" [not to mention Hebrews 12:14 which they use in the same incorrect way], where Chris1975 was saying this verse 23 means that "some OF YOU [/THEM]" have not the knowledge of God (where Chris1975 is ADDING the words "OF YOU")... and where I was saying that it's instead speaking of OTHERS [onlooking/onlookers] to whom they are not of benefit (whilst "quenching" and "grieving")... like, WHEN YOU ARE SINNING/QUENCHING the Spirit/GRIEVING the Spirit, at that moment (while sinning) [Heb12:14] "no one can see the Lord [IN YOU]" (others are not benefitted... and this is what Paul meant, as I see it, by his phrase, "I speak this to your shame"... not that THEY THEMSELVES [to whom he was speaking/writing] "have not the knowledge of God," like Chris1975 was suggesting.) And I pointed out the contrast being, as those in 2Cor4:10-12 "that the LIFE also OF JESUS might BE MADE MANIFEST in our mortal flesh [/in our body]"

Hope that made sense. (I'm not suggesting a "lose-your-salvation" idea, in saying what I did, there in that post.)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There have been many times I have quenched the Spirit. Even for long periods of time. Then God chastened me, broke my bones or else drew me with cords of love. If He hadn't, I never would have gotten to this point. Through many dangers, toils, and snares I have already come. Tis grace that brought me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home

I am in agreement with you.

 

[Discern]

Yeah, but what I'm talking about is the thing I was discussing with Chris1975 yesterday, regarding his mentioning 1 Corinthians 15:23, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame" [not to mention Hebrews 12:14 which they use in the same incorrect way], where Chris1975 was saying this verse 23 means that "some OF YOU [/THEM]" have not the knowledge of God (where Chris1975 is ADDING the words "OF YOU")... and where I was saying that it's instead speaking of OTHERS [onlooking/onlookers] to whom they are not of benefit (whilst "quenching" and "grieving")... like, WHEN YOU ARE SINNING/QUENCHING the Spirit/GRIEVING the Spirit, at that moment (while sinning) [Heb12:14] "no one can see the Lord [IN YOU]" (others are not benefitted... and this is what Paul meant, as I see it, by his phrase, "I speak this to your shame"... not that THEY THEMSELVES [to whom he was speaking/writing] "have not the knowledge of God," like Chris1975 was suggesting.) And I pointed out the contrast being, as those in 2Cor4:10-12 "that the LIFE also OF JESUS might BE MADE MANIFEST in our mortal flesh [/in our body]"

Hope that made sense. (I'm not suggesting a "lose-your-salvation" idea, in saying what I did, there in that post.)

Perhaps there is a textual variant in 1 Corinthians 15:23? I don't know. But I am in general agreement with your post. I just meant earlier, that God still was at work in me and through me even when I was strugging spiritually. Key word, struggling.

 

[Judges1318]

You and others who promote salvation by faith + works...

If the 'you' is Chris1975, I think he sees works in salvation the same way you do. Works accompany true salvation just as Hebrews 6:9 says, and which you affirm:

"Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation."

And, if you, in the end, don't have the works that accompany salvation, being a fruitless field, you will be burned.

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Hebrews 6:8

I don't know why he can believe all that and he has to be labeled a works salvationist, but when you believe it, you're not a works salvationist. I don't believe he, or anyone else presently participating in this thread, is saying works literally purchase salvation as if it was the wages earned for doing good works.

 

[Judges1318]

here is a question that none of you will answer-

if a certain amount or certain type of sin will disqualify one from salvation, what type and/or how many??

I mean, how can one say that " God is good" or " God is love" when one ( like you) that pushes a belief system that says " God will rip your name out the Book of Life if you sin too much, or too often, but God will NOT tell you exactly what or how many".

it's just what all religion is- a control system based on fear mongering.

I answered your question.

 

[Discern]

Yeah, but what I'm talking about is the thing I was discussing with Chris1975 yesterday, regarding his mentioning 1 Corinthians 15:23, "Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame" [not to mention Hebrews 12:14 which they use in the same incorrect way], where Chris1975 was saying this verse 23 means that "some OF YOU [/THEM]" have not the knowledge of God (where Chris1975 is ADDING the words "OF YOU")... and where I was saying that it's instead speaking of OTHERS [onlooking/onlookers] to whom they are not of benefit (whilst "quenching" and "grieving")... like, WHEN YOU ARE SINNING/QUENCHING the Spirit/GRIEVING the Spirit, at that moment (while sinning) [Heb12:14] "no one can see the Lord [IN YOU]" (others are not benefitted... and this is what Paul meant, as I see it, by his phrase, "I speak this to your shame"... not that THEY THEMSELVES [to whom he was speaking/writing] "have not the knowledge of God," like Chris1975 was suggesting.) And I pointed out the contrast being, as those in 2Cor4:10-12 "that the LIFE also OF JESUS might BE MADE MANIFEST in our mortal flesh [/in our body]"

Hope that made sense. (I'm not suggesting a "lose-your-salvation" idea, in saying what I did, there in that post.)

The only translation I found that renders the phrase "some of you" is the NLT. The rest of the translations I looked at said "some have not the knowledge of God" or "some people don't have the knowledge of God". The words "of you" could possibly be implied, but that is not explicit in the text, so I would be very cautious about adding them. Perhaps someone that is more knowledgable in Koine than I could give some insight.

 

[Judges1318]

I will also add this, which is VERY relevant.

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

This verse says the chastening that the Lord exercises on His children yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness. So if I understand the Bible correctly, God's people are being sanctified by the Lord. They are not stagnant pools of water, but rivers of Living Water flow out of them.

It says, 'for those who have been trained by it'. vs.11
Not everybody responds to correction and discipline.

 

[Discern]

It says, 'for those who have been trained by it'. vs.11
Not everybody responds to correction and discipline.

Check Hebrews 12:7- If you endure (hupomene) chastening, God dealeth with you as sons."

What do you suppose that word endure (hupomene) means?

 

[Judges1318]

Yes, we should not quarrel. Quarreling is not productive. But taking a stand on words is sometimes necessary. For example, the apostles John took a stand about false words many times. "if we say we have no sin...", "if we say that we have not sinned..", If we say we know Him, and don't keep His commands..." etc. Those are all critiques of false WORDS.

WIth that said, the manner in which stands are sometimes taken in this forum are quarrelsome, so indeed the verse that Calibob posted is relevant for some of what has been said.

Anybody who tears you up, or mocks you is a pig or a dog per Matthew 7:6. Nothing wrong with sharing thoughts, insights, and opinions. Tearing people apart and mocking them is where the problem lies. But modern electronic technology makes it even more possible to not have to endure being torn apart by pigs and dogs when you cast your pearls for others to find.

 

[Judges1318]

Check Hebrews 12:7- If you endure (hupomene) chastening, God dealeth with you as sons."

What do you suppose that word endure (hupomene) means?

In context, "subjected to, perhaps without choice".
Which is interesting because the people who insist that even though one is always saved no matter how they act, and if you get out of line God will thump you, they don't seem to ever get thumped on the head when they don't live the Christian life. God's chastisement of his sons seems to be a rationalization for them thinking they can live outside of God but still be in Him at the same time, not an actual reality for them.

 

[Discern]

Hebrews 12: 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

 

[Discern]

Anybody who tears you up, or mocks you is a pig or a dog per Matthew 7:6. Nothing wrong with sharing thoughts, insights, and opinions. Tearing people apart and mocking them is where the problem lies. But modern electronic technology makes it even more possible to not have to endure being torn apart by pigs and dogs when you cast your pearls for others to find.

I wouldn't say all are pigs and dogs. Some Christians go through what James White calls a "cage stage". I think Christians of many persuasions might go through this stage. Hopefully, not very long

But as to the rest...

2 Timothy 2:24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

 

[Judges1318]

God's chastisement of his sons seems to be a rationalization for them thinking they can live outside of God but still be in Him at the same time, not an actual reality for them.

Not talking about you, @Discern , by the way.
You've been honest enough to admit your beatings.

 

[mailmandan]

If the 'you' is Chris1975, I think he sees works in salvation the same way you do. Works accompany true salvation just as Hebrews 6:9 says, and which you affirm:

"Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation."

And, if you, in the end, don't have the works that accompany salvation, being a fruitless field, you will be burned.

"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Hebrews 6:8

I did not give specific names on who the "others" are, yet I've had numerous discussions in the past with works-salvationists on Christian Chat and other Christian forums, who just like Pisteuo, were very fond of the Vine's definition of "Pisteuo" and used it to teach salvation by faith + works. I do believe that works accompany true salvation, yet we are still saved by grace through faith and not by works.

I don't know why he can believe all that and he has to be labeled a works salvationist, but when you believe it, you're not a works salvationist. I don't believe he, or anyone else presently participating in this thread, is saying works literally purchase salvation as if it was the wages earned for doing good works.

It's not hard to find those who teach works salvation on Christian Chat and other Christian forums. Some do so in a more obvious way and others in a more subtle way. Such people generally don't come right out and say that works literally purchase salvation, or are wages earned for doing good works, yet they will attempt to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and make statements that imply salvation is "initially" obtained through faith then ultimately "maintained by works" (others say obtained by both faith and works) still others will imply that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works etc..

 

[Judges1318]

I wouldn't say all are pigs and dogs. Some Christians go through what James White calls a "cage stage". I think Christians of many persuasions might go through this stage. Hopefully, not very long

But as to the rest...

2 Timothy 2:24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

Say what you will, then hit the door.....or the ignore button.

 

[Discern]

In context, "subjected to, perhaps without choice".
Which is interesting because the people who insist that even though one is always saved no matter how they act, and if you get out of line God will thump you, they don't seem to ever get thumped on the head when they don't live the Christian life. God's chastisement of his sons seems to be a rationalization for them thinking they can live outside of God but still be in Him at the same time, not an actual reality for them.

The passage in discussion is a somber warning to those who can sin with impunity and not get "thumped". If you are a Christian, and you try to sin with impunity, you're going to get thumped. The world can try to sin with impunity and not get thumped in the present time, (they are storing up wrath for the day of wrath), but not a Christian. If we sin with apparent impunity and don't get chastised, we are not sons.

 

[Judges1318]

I do believe that works accompany true salvation, yet we are still saved by grace through faith and not by works.

So do the rest of us.

It's not hard to find those who teach works salvation on Christian Chat and other Christian forums. Some do so in a more obvious way and others in a more subtle way. Such people generally don't come right out and say that works literally purchase salvation, or are wages earned for doing good works, yet they will attempt to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith and make statements that imply salvation is "initially" obtained through faith then ultimately "maintained by works" (others say obtained by both faith and works) still others will imply that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works etc..

I'll be honest with you. With the exception of these rogue examples you keep bringing up (Mormons, etc.) everybody here believes like you do. Even you know that the Bible talks about 'saving yourself' by doing things. And you know exactly what that means without it meaning your works purchase salvation as payment owed for completed works of righteousness.