Mystery Babylon

Lanolin · Dec 23, 2019

ok, Am looking up revelation 16:19 it does not say Babylon is the whole world, but it does say its divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. notice its cities plural. for some reason I thought Babylon was just one city as it says in rev 17:18 or great city.

Has anyone here actually been to Rome? Is it really horribly corrupt as revelation claims it to be.

Rondonmon · Dec 23, 2019

Lanolin said:

Yes....follow it through to its conclusion, ask the next question, WHO did Jesus defeat at Armageddon, ? Well Vial #6 tells us who these Nations were that fell, thus we can see who Babylon is.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the KINGS of the Earth and of the WHOLE WORLD, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So now we know WHO God is speaking about in verse 19, the Kings of the WHOLE WORLD who gather to Battle against the Almighty.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts{Jesus splits Mt. Zion/Earthquake}, and the cities of the nations fell {All the Nations/City States fall at Armageddon}: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

And God sees them............The Kings of the WHOLE WORLD..............as Babylon the Great, and thus gives them the wine of His Wrath. Nations were better known then as City States usually, Babylon, Rome, etc. etc. so it cites the Cities of the Nations, or the powerful portions of each Nation falls. So basically today it would mean Washington DC falls, but it stands for the United States in full, a Nation. Jesus lands at Mt. Zion, splits it into, then goes to the Valley of Meggido and slays these Kings of the Earth that have gathered to do battle against the Almighty God. Fighting against God tells us they are loony to start with right ? Babel means CONFUSION, Satan has confused them into fighting against their own Creator who died for them, nothing could be more akin to be called Babylon than the masses of a World fighting against a God of PERFECT LOVE !! That is why God sees them as Babylon the Great {CONFUSED or DECEIVED}.

PlainWord · Dec 23, 2019

Lanolin said:

Now these are well thought out, principled questions!!

For your above question, what does Jesus say about the coming of the heavenly kingdom??

Luke 17: 20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The Kingdom is WITHIN US. IT IS INVISIBLE TO THE EYE. We are walking in the kingdom RIGHT NOW as all Christians have been since 70 AD. What are you all waiting for? You are missing out on the best part of being a Christian. You are living in the Kingdom now but waiting for some physical kingdom to come. How sad!! Paul teaches the same thing in 2 Cor 5:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Does anything outwardly change about us, other than our attitudes, our joy, our love, our Christian characteristics, etc? No!! We appear the same outwardly to the world. So what is new? What makes us a new creation? The answer is found repeatedly but let's look at John 14:

Indwelling of the Father and the Son

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (THIS IS THE KINGDOM) 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. (THIS WAS THE RAPTURE WHICH HAPPENED IN THE FIRST CENTURY AND NOW HAPPENS UPON SALVATION) 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

This indwelling, we true Christians all have IS THE KINGDOM. IT IS HERE NOW AND WE ARE ALL IN IT WITH CHRIST'S PRESENCE, THE HEAD OF HIS CHURCH (AND GOD'S) WITHIN EACH OF US, HIS BRIDE. There is nothing else coming to this earth.

PlainWord · Dec 23, 2019

Lanolin said:

19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.

Revelation 16:19 says that Babylon split into three parts. In A.D. 69, Jewish refugees from the surrounding cities that had been destroyed during Vespasian’s campaign fled to Jerusalem to make their last stand. A three-way civil war erupted. The Jewish rebels were split into three factions led by three aspiring Messiahs—John, Simon and Eleazar. Eleazar and his men were stationed in the inner court of the temple. Simon the son of Gioras controlled the upper city and much of the lower. John controlled the rest of Jerusalem. From here John and his men were attacked above and below by their two enemies.

While Jerusalem was torn in three parts by civil war, the rest of Rome suffered the same fate. In A.D. 69, Rome underwent a similar three-way civil war in which Galba, Otho and Vitellius pitted the Roman legions against each other. When one Caesar seized the throne, his rule was contested by a rival aristocrat who also declared himself Caesar. During that year, Rome was ruled by four Caesars leaving three Caesars dead. Like a wildfire, civil war spread throughout Rome destroying many cities and threatening to collapse the empire. Hence, the cities of the nations also collapsed, as indicated in v. 19. The fact that the cities of the nations are said to collapse in v. 19 may also refer to all the cities of Judaea which fell to the Romans during the Jewish War prior to the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Now this is really cool. Let's step back one verse.

18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.

This happened too as recorded by Josephus. He literally recalls the exact fulfillment of Rev 16:18 below. Josephus describes an almost supernatural thunderstorm and earthquake that hit Jerusalem simultaneously before the arrival of Titus’ army. Concerning this event Josephus writes:

[F]or there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming.

Notice he says, "the system of the world was put into disorder?" The destruction of Jerusalem wasn't an isolated event that only mattered to the people of Israel, the entire world saw it as a monumental event. For 2 thousand years Israel uniquely claimed to be God's chosen nation. Everyone knew of this claim. To see God now wipe her off the map had a profound impact on the psyche of the rest of the world unlike the destruction of any other city could have.

Lanolin · Dec 23, 2019

ok I understand the spiritual kingdom WITHIN us, but then what about how every eye shall see part. I thought maybe that had to do with the second coming. I have heard many christians believe that Jesus is yet to return in the flesh so that we can all see him, in some unspecified time in the future.

This is why so many keep saying hes coming soon, and people predict dates, like rapture in 88 (I have encountered a lot of books like these in church libraries, which I have had to weed out) and books like the Left Behind series. And Dave Hunt. I do know Dave Hunt books, because I have read a few, where he misses out some scriptures and Im going ok, if you omit certain scriptures you can obviously make the Bible say whatever you want it to say.

The difficulty with Revelation is, it does not appear to be a straightforward narrative, so its open to various interpetations.

iamsoandso · Dec 23, 2019

and w

Lanolin said:

I agree it is open to various interpretations for instance if you look at post #622 the general in the list (#10) is Josephus of Mattias who is Josephus who instead of being destroyed live onward and becomes a great historian instead of Rev.17:14 taking place.

Nebuchadnezzer · Dec 23, 2019

Lanolin said:

Revelation 22:18 says:
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Now who has added more to God's word than the Roman Catholic Church? All the councils and dogmas, and ex cathedra...

So the people of the Roman Catholic Church have been adding to God's word for ~1700 yrs, and yet nothing in revelation has been fulfilled? If so then I see this as God being delinquent in his promise here.

However, I do not see God as being delinquent on his promise because I see some of the bowls of wrath as being already fulfilled.

I see the seventh bowl of wrath being World War II. (shock)
In WWII the great city (Rome) was divided in three parts:
- 1st) controlled by the Italian Dictatorship,
- 2nd) controlled by Nazi Germany
- 3rd) controlled by the Allied powers.

What is interesting is that Rome was bombed a number of times throughout the war, and even a couple stray bombs fell on the Vatican. Therefore she did drink the cup of God's wrath in WWII.

I can provide my entire interpretation of the 7th bowl of wrath if anyone is interested.

Rondonmon · Dec 23, 2019

PlainWord said:

Very nice presentation sir. I can respect this as not just being someone making a claim without a reasoned dissertation. Even though I think we would both be wasting each others time speaking about the book of Revelation when we are separated by a 2000 year barrier between our understandings, we can look at the 70 AD event for it is, the 70 AD event.

Here is what not a lot of people get, and I think it throws some off kilter. If the Jewish people had accepted Christ Jesus, as was the original hope of God {however God knew they wouldn't, of course}, then Jesus would have saved the Jews in 70 AD, instead God inserted the Church Age and Israel became as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years. I agree, Josephus and all the Pharisees though the 66 AD -70 AD event was when their "POLITICAL MESSIAH" {as they saw him} was going to show up and save them from the Fourth Beast. Of course the Zechariah 14 event looks just like the 70 AD event, but Jesus didn't come back to save them, and the Political Messiah also didn't show up to save them. Thus John 5:43 was fulfilled when Jesus said this to the Pharisees and Jewish leaders of his day.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

This actually happened, I agree with you, Josephus like the other Jewish leaders thought the 70 AD event was about the Fourth Beast, it was, but they didn't understand that unless they accepted the Messiah {Jesus} AND Repented as the Dan. 9:24-27 prophecy requires, God would see Israel as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, insert the Church Age, call upon the Gentiles to take His Gospel unto the ends of the earth, and then call Israel to repentance over 2000 years later during the coming 70th week tribulation period. So yes Josephus though the 70 AD even was when the "POLITICAL MESSIAH" would come and save them, but he was wrong, Israel has to repent first, then the real Messiah will come and save them. And it will look just like the 70 AD event, but the difference is Jesus will win by proclaiming victory via his mouth, just like he created the universe.

Israel has to REPENT Before the 70th week Judgment can come to pass. God's riddles are above all things man can see, until God chooses to show them unto us. Some people say John 5:43 is about the END TIME Anti-Christ being accepted by the Jews, they don't see that this was fulfilled 2000 some odd years ago so they go on the whole kick of "Israel accepts the Anti-Christ as their Messiah, when in actuality it was about the Pharisees putting forth "Political Saviors" in 70 AD, 40 or so years after Jesus prophesied they would reject him, bit accept another who came in his own name !!

So while I disagree with your overall conclusion, I agree with your historical documentation via Josephus, they did indeed think 70 AD was the Zechariah 14:1-4 event, but it wasn't, no one came to save them.

Rondonmon · Dec 23, 2019

Lanolin said:

No one should predict dates........we will be able to predict the Second Coming {that is we could if we were on earth, but we will be in heaven at that time} so let me rephrase it, those on earth will be able to predict the Second Coming because the Beast rules exactly 1260 days, so from the time he becomes the Beast by Conquering Jerusalem {See Dan. 12:7} he will have 1260 days until these Wonders End. {Second Coming}. Therefore the Rapture has to be, can be the only thing that Jesus was speaking of, when he said we can not know the day nor the hour.

Its straightforward, but its a coded message unto the Church. Just like the parables were intended for the Church/Disciples to understand, but the world hearing would not understand and seeing they would not see. Jesus told the Disciples that was why he spoke in parables. So likewise, the book of Revelation can be understand, but its a BIG ENCODED book, like a HUGE PARABLE. We have to use the Old Testament to get the code, just like Rev. 12, the Sun, Moon and 12 stars is a reference to Josephs dream in Gen. 37:9, so we can get it, but we have to DECODE IT.

And it's Chronology is all jumbled up, on purpose it seems, the first thing is we have to get the chronological order right and that was the toughest part for me. But I eventually got it via persistence. You have Rev. 1 is the things which you HAVE SEEN {Jesus in all his glory. Rev. 2 and 3 are the THINGS WHICH ARE {Church Age}. Everything past Rev. 4:1 is the HEREAFTER.

Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church in heaven BEFORE the Seals are opened.

Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 are the Judgment Chapters, this is the Chronological Order of the book of Revelations final 3.5 years of the 70th week. Of course Rev. 20, 21 and 22 come after the 70th week.

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, and 19 are all Parenthetical Citation type chapters, in other words they all happen during the ABOVE Judgment chapters 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16. Then comes the Rev. 20 Judgment Seat and the Rev. 20 and 21 ever after and New Jerusalem.

Just so I don't get off track {wink wink} Rev. 17 is the Babylon chapter, it actually starts in Rev. ch. 6, and the Kings of the Beast thus kills off ALL FALSE RELIGIONS at that time, demanding Beast Worship by all, so the Harlot is killed off. And Rev. 18 also begins with the First Seal in Rev. ch. 6, but it ends with the 7th Vial, Babylon {Whole World} gets Judged by the Seal, Trump and Vial Judgments. So these chapters are all Parenthetical Citations, not real time events.

PlainWord · Dec 24, 2019

Lanolin said:

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

In this passage, "Earth" refers to the nation of Israel and it's tribes. In Rev 13 the beast of the "sea" comes from outside Israel where the beast from the "earth" comes from within Israel. "They who pierced Him" were literally Roman solders at the urging of the Jewish religious leaders. Thus Christ's presence return would be witnessed by Roman solders and the Jewish religious leaders and the tribes of Israel who were all present again in Israel during the Roman/Jewish war.

Evidence of this is found in the writings of Joseph who records six separate times Christ gave signs of his presence during this period. In his own words:

1. Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. (Rev 19:15)
2. At the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. (This fulfilled Rev 8:1 and 18:1)
3. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. (Virgin baby cows don't give birth to lambs)
4. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night.
5. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.
6. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."

Some of the Jews who were about to face judgment recognized what was about to happen (as knowledge increased) while others remained fooled.

"...While they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshadowed the desolation that was coming upon them."

PlainWord · Dec 24, 2019

iamsoandso said:

14 these with the Lamb shall make war, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because Lord of lords he is, and King of kings, and those with him are called, and choice, and stedfast.'

The Lamb overcomes them, it doesn't say the Lamb destroys or kills them. The Patriots overcame the Bills last Saturday, they didn't kill or destroy them.

In the case of Josephus, at first he fought against Rome then he joined them as Titus gave him protection. He gave his power over to the Beast with one mind and purpose. Josephus actually tried to reason with his people in Jerusalem to surrender to Rome as he wanted to spare the temple. These acts were against God's purpose. God purposed to destroy Jerusalem (Mother Harlot) and its unholy temple.

bojack · Dec 24, 2019

PlainWord said:

Every body's flesh life comes to an end in each generation and each church needs warnings .. Are you saying Jesus has come back ?

iamsoandso · Dec 24, 2019

PlainWord said:

My err I suppose was in that I thought if you were speaking of the ten horns/toes ect. you would also be aware of the other scriptures concerning them. In Daniel 7:11-12 it states that the beast with the ten horns( and the 11th) would be "slain" strongs #6992 and destroyed then given to the burning flame(see verse 11). The other beast have their dominions taken away (see verse 12)... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/daniel/7.htm

PlainWord · Dec 24, 2019

Rondonmon said:

Actually Zech 14 was about the Maccabees in the 2nd century BC.

The fact that God fought for the Jews against their Gentile enemies during the Maccabean Wars is explicitly stated in 2 Maccabees 11:13 and 15:8.

13 Who, as he was a man of understanding, casting with himself what loss he had had, and considering that the Hebrews could not be overcome, because the Almighty God helped them, he sent unto them,

8 Wherefore he exhorted his people not to fear the coming of the heathen against them, but to remember the help which in former times they had received from heaven, and now to expect the victory and aid, which should come unto them from the Almighty.

Illustrating this idea angelic warriors from heaven are said to have appeared to protect the Jews and defeat their enemies in 2 Maccabees 3:24-34; 10:29-31; and 11:8.

24 Now as he was there present himself with his guard about the treasury, the Lord of spirits, and the Prince of all power, caused a great apparition, so that all that presumed to come in with him were astonished at the power of God, and fainted, and were sore afraid.

25 For there appeared unto them an horse with a terrible rider upon him, and adorned with a very fair covering, and he ran fiercely, and smote at Heliodorus with his forefeet, and it seemed that he that sat upon the horse had complete harness of gold.

26 Moreover two other young men appeared before him, notable in strength, excellent in beauty, and comely in apparel, who stood by him on either side; and scourged him continually, and gave him many sore stripes.

27 And Heliodorus fell suddenly unto the ground, and was compassed with great darkness: but they that were with him took him up, and put him into a litter.

28 Thus him, that lately came with a great train and with all his guard into the said treasury, they carried out, being unable to help himself with his weapons: and manifestly they acknowledged the power of God.

29 For he by the hand of God was cast down, and lay speechless without all hope of life.

30 But they praised the Lord, that had miraculously honoured his own place: for the temple; which a little afore was full of fear and trouble, when the Almighty Lord appeared, was filled with joy and gladness.

31 Then straightways certain of Heliodorus' friends prayed Onias, that he would call upon the most High to grant him his life, who lay ready to give up the ghost.

32 So the high priest, suspecting lest the king should misconceive that some treachery had been done to Heliodorus by the Jews, offered a sacrifice for the health of the man.

33 Now as the high priest was making an atonement, the same young men in the same clothing appeared and stood beside Heliodorus, saying, Give Onias the high priest great thanks, insomuch as for his sake the Lord hath granted thee life:

34 And seeing that thou hast been scourged from heaven, declare unto all men the mighty power of God. And when they had spoken these words, they appeared no more.

29 But when the battle waxed strong, there appeared unto the enemies from heaven five comely men upon horses, with bridles of gold, and two of them led the Jews,

30 And took Maccabeus betwixt them, and covered him on every side weapons, and kept him safe, but shot arrows and lightnings against the enemies: so that being confounded with blindness, and full of trouble, they were killed.

31 And there were slain of footmen twenty thousand and five hundred, and six hundred horsemen.

8 And as they were at Jerusalem, there appeared before them on horseback one in white clothing, shaking his armour of gold.

I appreciate your kinds words. But why do you keep looking for future fulfillment when I can show you EVERYTHING has been fulfilled in the past????

PlainWord · Dec 24, 2019

iamsoandso said:

In the vision of Dan 7, the little horn is Titus. Then who are the three kings or horns who are subdued by this eleventh horn? Let us look at Daniel 7:24 again: “After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.” As stated above, throughout the course of the Jewish revolt Titus grew in prominence from general in A.D. 67 to Caesar at the end of A.D. 69. This growth in power corresponded exactly with the uprooting (Daniel 7:8) or subduing (Daniel 7:24) of the previous three horns. After being appointed Caesar and successor to Vespasian in A.D. 69, Vespasian sent Titus back to Palestine in A.D. 70 to crush the rebellion in Jerusalem, what appeared then to be the last Zealot stronghold of the war. During the siege of Jerusalem Caesar Titus was appointed general over the entire Roman army in Israel. When Titus arrived around March of A.D. 70, Jerusalem was in a state of three-way civil war during which three of the ten remaining kings or horns were engaged in battle for supremacy over the city. These three Jewish kings/generals or horns were Simon b. Giora, John of Gischala and Eleazar b. Simon.12 Eleazar controlled the Temple, Simon held the upper and much of the lower city while John controlled what was left. These are the three horns who were uprooted or subdued by Titus, the little horn, as Titus soon captured Jerusalem after a five month siege and these three men were either imprisoned or killed during and after this siege.

iamsoandso · Dec 24, 2019

PlainWord said:

In the vision of Dan 7, the little horn is Titus. Then who are the three kings or horns who are subdued by this eleventh horn? Let us look at Daniel 7:24 again: “After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.” As stated above, throughout the course of the Jewish revolt Titus grew in prominence from general in A.D. 67 to Caesar at the end of A.D. 69. This growth in power corresponded exactly with the uprooting (Daniel 7:8) or subduing (Daniel 7:24) of the previous three horns. After being appointed Caesar and successor to Vespasian in A.D. 69, Vespasian sent Titus back to Palestine in A.D. 70 to crush the rebellion in Jerusalem, what appeared then to be the last Zealot stronghold of the war. During the siege of Jerusalem Caesar Titus was appointed general over the entire Roman army in Israel. When Titus arrived around March of A.D. 70, Jerusalem was in a state of three-way civil war during which three of the ten remaining kings or horns were engaged in battle for supremacy over the city. These three Jewish kings/generals or horns were Simon b. Giora, John of Gischala and Eleazar b. Simon.12 Eleazar controlled the Temple, Simon held the upper and much of the lower city while John controlled what was left. These are the three horns who were uprooted or subdued by Titus, the little horn, as Titus soon captured Jerusalem after a five month siege and these three men were either imprisoned or killed during and after this siege.

Because of the holidays I may be busy and will try to log in at night across the next few days. Rome,Titus ect. did not die(slain) and Rome existed onward into history so it does not match up with what you are thinking...

PlainWord · Dec 24, 2019

bojack said:

Christ's presence returned and stayed during the War of the Jews. Look at the literal translation of Mat 24:3:

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

They wanted signs of His presence because His return would be difficult to discern. Then later Christ describes what to expect as His Presence is returning:

27 for as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man;

28 for wherever the carcase may be, there shall the eagles be gathered together.

29 `And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

Thus Christ's presence returned during the Jewish War. Thus He would return like a flash of lightening from the east to the west. He would come as Jerusalem laid in ruins with dead bodies scattered all over the city with scavenger birds eating their flesh, just as it was recorded in history. Christ's presence was just like the many times God's presence appeared in judgment in the OT.

When God came on the clouds in judgment in the Old Testament, the spirit of the Lord was pictured riding dark storm clouds accompanied by rumblings of the earth, thunder and lightning. 2 Samuel 22:10-15 illustrates this fact:

He parted the heavens and came down; dark clouds were under his feet. He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind. He made darkness his canopy around him—the dark rain clouds of the sky. Out of the brightness of his presence bolts of lightning blazed forth. The Lord thundered from heaven; the voice of the Most High resounded. He shot his arrows and scattered the enemy, with great bolts of lightning he routed them.

In Matthew 24, Jesus promises to return in a like manner. The fact that Jesus likens His return to “lightning that comes from the east” illustrates the fact that when Christ was expected to come on the clouds in judgment He was to do so as the Lord had done in the past–riding on dark storm clouds accompanied by lightning. Matthew 24:27 was fulfilled both literally and symbolically in the Jewish War.

Historical confirmation of lightening marking the second coming of Christ may be found in the writings of the Roman historian Tacitus:

In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard...

The return of Glorified Christ was no different from when God used to come in the past. In Matthew 24:29, the sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky. These astral omens are very similar to the heavenly signs said to accompany the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age.

Rondonmon · Dec 24, 2019

PlainWord said:

The below is about the Maccabean Revolt during Antiochus's reign.

Dan. 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

The BELOW is the coming End Times. And we can divide this into two camps, the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem in verses 1 and 2 and the Jesus RETURNING to defeat the Beast/Satan/False Prophet, etc. all in verses 3 and 4.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

So we have Jerusalem Conquered, this is where the Anti-Christ becomes THE BEAST..............THEN Jesus returns in VICTORY.

PlainWord · Dec 24, 2019

Rondonmon said:

No, both passages were about Antiochus and the Maccabees. There are no END TIMES in our future. The End was the end of Israel and that age. Jesus already returned. Sorry you weren't born yet so you missed it.

Zechariah was a Judean prophet who wrote during the reign of Darius during the Babylonian captivity where he was born. Do you think he would skip over the Antiochus when much of his focus was on the building of the second temple? Don't you think he would predict the abomination of Antiochus, the slaughtering of 80,000 Jews in the process and God's helping the Maccabees to restore and cleanse the temple? He would skip over that event, the events of 70 AD and jump 2,000 years to our times to discuss us? Give me a break.

PlainWord · Dec 24, 2019

iamsoandso said:

Yes it was Rome. The Roman beast, Nero, "died" in 68 AD. The empire was then thrown into a bloody civil war. Nero had been waging war against the saints, and beating them. Nero's death marked the end of the Julio-Claudian Dynasty. The Roman beast, with the mortal wound, was apparently dead until it came back to life under the Flavian Dynasty with Vespasian. It perfectly fits Daniel's and John's description of the same 4th beast.

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