Not By Works
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The gift of salvation is given in this life.
All we can do is receive it by faith... knowing that all is forgiven and Jesus has paid the debt in full.
And once we are saved we are exhorted, admonished to live according to our new nature because that is the only life worth living.
All we can do is receive it by faith... knowing that all is forgiven and Jesus has paid the debt in full.
And once we are saved we are exhorted, admonished to live according to our new nature because that is the only life worth living.
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A lot of what you said in the first two paragraphs I agree with. But the verses in 1 John are about by this we know. They are not dealing with how we gain or keep salvation, they are about knowing we are in Him, know Him, abide in Him, etc
In other words, if someone really knows God and has fellowship with Him, these things will be manifest. They are not works that we do to earn credits with God, they are characteristics that are the result of our faith in God, and our fellowship with Him and one another
A believer has these qualities because of their Relationship with God. And they seek a closer relationship with Him because they desire Him. And they desire Him because He draws them like moths to a flame, and He draws them because they have a new nature, and they have a new nature because of the new birth, and they have been born of God through faith, and faith is a gift of God.
None of it is about self effort to keep ourselves saved. But we do need to take heed lest we drift. But one who loves God does not want to drift. So they will
In other words, if someone really knows God and has fellowship with Him, these things will be manifest. They are not works that we do to earn credits with God, they are characteristics that are the result of our faith in God, and our fellowship with Him and one another
A believer has these qualities because of their Relationship with God. And they seek a closer relationship with Him because they desire Him. And they desire Him because He draws them like moths to a flame, and He draws them because they have a new nature, and they have a new nature because of the new birth, and they have been born of God through faith, and faith is a gift of God.
None of it is about self effort to keep ourselves saved. But we do need to take heed lest we drift. But one who loves God does not want to drift. So they will
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Unlike you guys with your IKEA doityourself salvation stimulus package, the 3000 HD edition?
Here are a FEW verses you have to COMPLETELY switch up:
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Is PASSED from death unto life, now you say BUT THEY GO BACK TO DEATH somehow? They are born again but they die again. PROBLEMS: New Testament teaches that ONCE YOU ARE BORN AGAIN, you are immortal, you are born again of INCORRUPTIBLE seed, sealed unto the day of redemption, so once you are born again you cant DIE AGAIN or be UNBORN again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Here are a FEW verses you have to COMPLETELY switch up:
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Is PASSED from death unto life, now you say BUT THEY GO BACK TO DEATH somehow? They are born again but they die again. PROBLEMS: New Testament teaches that ONCE YOU ARE BORN AGAIN, you are immortal, you are born again of INCORRUPTIBLE seed, sealed unto the day of redemption, so once you are born again you cant DIE AGAIN or be UNBORN again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
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I already thoroughly explained that to you in post #115,916 (which is in harmony with Ephesians 1:13,14; 4:30) but you have your agenda.
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-5796#post-4100088
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/not-by-works.146296/page-5796#post-4100088
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No! It isn't! Is it?
Yet? That's ALL you OSAS'ers, in y'alls "cherry picking" even Paul's teachings, CARE about!
Y'all don't WANNA "covet earnestly" the best gifts!
Because that would require WORKS, "beyond the principles of the doctrine of Christ!"
Which "blows away" OSAS'ers "the gift of salvation, and not spiritual gifts, are all we are interested in!"
Yet? That's ALL you OSAS'ers, in y'alls "cherry picking" even Paul's teachings, CARE about!
Y'all don't WANNA "covet earnestly" the best gifts!
Because that would require WORKS, "beyond the principles of the doctrine of Christ!"
Which "blows away" OSAS'ers "the gift of salvation, and not spiritual gifts, are all we are interested in!"
Totally confused... but we will leave it there.
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I do. So I am saved? I think I need to fast the self-righteousness out of me. @mailmandan What church do you go to?
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I would say the healing the sick, the casting out of demons, the blind "seeing", the raising of the dead, done by the Disciples, and Apostles after Jesus ascended, seems like a pretty reasonable facsimile of "present reality." Doesn't it? But, not according to "cessessionists" doctrines, or OSAS'ers, though.
But you believe in OSAS. So not always.
When a Satanist comes to hear the gospel, believes in and calls on the Lord Jesus, and for a time walks with the Lord --- And then his old mates convince him to come back. He then renounces the Lord, and falls back fully into his old ways. He lives out the remainder of his life in this state. Sure, The Holy Spirit brought remembrance and conviction, but this guy simply quietened down (quenched) the Spirit.
Now - is this guy OSAS? Do the pearly gates open for him.
If you tell me he never really believed, then that's a COP out. Because I have described above that he did. But He chose to rather fulfill the lusts of the flesh instead of being led by the Spirit. His faith was shipwrecked. He became on of those written about (If He draws, back I will have no pleasure in him, and those who willfully continue in sin such that he has trampled the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified.
If you tell me he never really believed, then NOBODY in the body of Christ at the moment could be considered saved, because the Church is littered with stories of backsliders who never returned to the Lord. In this case we "dont know" if the current believers will follow the route that this Satanist followed above.
When a Satanist comes to hear the gospel, believes in and calls on the Lord Jesus, and for a time walks with the Lord --- And then his old mates convince him to come back. He then renounces the Lord, and falls back fully into his old ways. He lives out the remainder of his life in this state. Sure, The Holy Spirit brought remembrance and conviction, but this guy simply quietened down (quenched) the Spirit.
Now - is this guy OSAS? Do the pearly gates open for him.
If you tell me he never really believed, then that's a COP out. Because I have described above that he did. But He chose to rather fulfill the lusts of the flesh instead of being led by the Spirit. His faith was shipwrecked. He became on of those written about (If He draws, back I will have no pleasure in him, and those who willfully continue in sin such that he has trampled the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified.
If you tell me he never really believed, then NOBODY in the body of Christ at the moment could be considered saved, because the Church is littered with stories of backsliders who never returned to the Lord. In this case we "dont know" if the current believers will follow the route that this Satanist followed above.
The promise is stated as saying he will not lose any who presently see him, presently eat his body and blood, and presently believe in him.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me
John 6:35-57 KJV
Stop satisfying the condition for presently seeing, eating and drinking, and believing, and the promise of you dwelling in Him and Him in you is no longer binding. The promise is plainly stated as applying to those who are doing these things, not to those who never did them, or stopped doing them.
And you can argue that true believers always do these things and if you leave you were never a real believer to begin with. Well, the Galatians were true believers and they left. And Paul makes it clear to them that they lose the benefit of Christ for doing that.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48I am that bread of life. 49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me
John 6:35-57 KJV
Stop satisfying the condition for presently seeing, eating and drinking, and believing, and the promise of you dwelling in Him and Him in you is no longer binding. The promise is plainly stated as applying to those who are doing these things, not to those who never did them, or stopped doing them.
And you can argue that true believers always do these things and if you leave you were never a real believer to begin with. Well, the Galatians were true believers and they left. And Paul makes it clear to them that they lose the benefit of Christ for doing that.
All of these are applicable to those who REMAIN in the faith.
Here I respond to the section in Red.
Jude
12 These are [g]spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried [h]about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
Nobody and nothing can pull you out of God's hand - except you. You can walk away. This is evidenced by lots of scriptures.
Here I respond to the section in Red.
Jude
12 These are [g]spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried [h]about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
Nobody and nothing can pull you out of God's hand - except you. You can walk away. This is evidenced by lots of scriptures.
Thats your problem right there: "Because i have described above that he did." you just described an UNREALISTIC scenario and expect me to take it and roll with it. Unlucky for you I called you out on it!
If a satanist calls on teh name of the Lord walks with the Lord for a time and then his mates convince him back to satanism and he renounces the Lord, I say THAT MANS A TARE among the wheat if he dies in that state. He went out from among us because he was never of us.
SEE AGAIN, we operate on DIFFERENT atmospheres completely, I believe that God will MAKE SURE that His sheep WONT become satanists after conversion, you seem to be leaving GOD out the equation completely, at best God is just trying to convince folks to believe in Him and stay with Him, but He struggles to get anything done. DOESNT SOUND LIKE THE BIBLICAL VERSION TO ME!
If a satanist calls on teh name of the Lord walks with the Lord for a time and then his mates convince him back to satanism and he renounces the Lord, I say THAT MANS A TARE among the wheat if he dies in that state. He went out from among us because he was never of us.
SEE AGAIN, we operate on DIFFERENT atmospheres completely, I believe that God will MAKE SURE that His sheep WONT become satanists after conversion, you seem to be leaving GOD out the equation completely, at best God is just trying to convince folks to believe in Him and stay with Him, but He struggles to get anything done. DOESNT SOUND LIKE THE BIBLICAL VERSION TO ME!
