Prophesying Forbidden

[presidente]

It is presumptuous to state that the future time is when we are with Christ. There will be no need for gifts of the Holy Spirit when we are in our glorified bodies. Israel will find them essential during the end of the great tribulation period which is what Joel 2 is telling us.

The perfect is most probably the completed canon

most probably...and would you be billing to speak ill of the Spirit based on a flimsy interpretation you consider 'most probably' true?

Peter applied the Joel. If the second coming is the end point you have no right to try to do away with prophesying in the meantime. Why would it cease and revive again? What scripture supports that? Why did Christians in the second century still believe in and experience prophesying in church?

 

[presidente]

Cessationist .. I just looked it up and it says John Calvin come up with the idea .. Is that true ...

It might have been the Montanists after Montanus died. In a debate between a Christian from the church and Montanus, Eusebius records, the Montanist said prophecy was no more after Montanus, Priscilla, and Maximilla died, but the Christian he debated said that the apostle taught that prophecy would continue until the Lord returns.

 

[CS1]

There are those who see after an 'experience' rather than after God....and I am reminded of this scripture:

Matthew 7:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The reason is in the question they asked the Lord, they said Lord have WE or I did this or that. Not that Lord you did through me for your glory. the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to and operated in the person as HE sees fit for the betterment of all the body. Jesus depart from me I never knew you. that was the reason why not the gifts they were operating in. The motive as to why they did it. signs and gifts are. Also many suggest that applies to all no matter what they do. that is not the case. Seeking after an expierance is not wrong. To seek after something you have to believe you will receive it. The action after you receive is the testimony of ones motives. Seeking a gift is not wrong. Seeking a sign to believe is wrong. one who seeks a gifts has faith , those seeking a sign want confirmation to believe, AS Jesus said in John to Thomas who believed after he saw. Jesus did not say he was not saved did he?

 

[presidente]

The reason is in the question they asked the Lord, they said Lord have WE or I did this or that. Not that Lord you did through me for your glory. the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to and operated in the person as HE sees fit for the betterment of all the body. Jesus depart from me I never knew you. that was the reason why not the gifts they were operating in. The motive as to why they did it. signs and gifts are. Also many suggest that applies to all no matter what they do. that is not the case. Seeking after an expierance is not wrong. To seek after something you have to believe you will receive it. The action after you receive is the testimony of ones motives. Seeking a gift is not wrong. Seeking a sign to believe is wrong. one who seeks a gifts has faith , those seeking a sign want confirmation to believe, AS Jesus said in John to Thomas who believed after he saw. Jesus did not say he was not saved did he?

Jesus also rebuked them for being workers of iniquity, not for doing miracles. In this passage, He had also just warned against false prophets.

Jesus was not saying it was a sin to cast out devils. He did that. He would send His apostles out with power to do that and more.

Was it wrong for Israelites to seek Jesus because He did miracles?
John 6:26
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

In Matthew 12, it is quite likely that the people were demanding a sign. They may have been demanding a sign to test if Jesus was a Prophet, or to see if He was THE Prophet like unto Moses based on this:

Deuteronomy 18

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[notuptome]

most probably...and would you be billing to speak ill of the Spirit based on a flimsy interpretation you consider 'most probably' true?

Peter applied the Joel. If the second coming is the end point you have no right to try to do away with prophesying in the meantime. Why would it cease and revive again? What scripture supports that? Why did Christians in the second century still believe in and experience prophesying in church?

For one who claims to be educated in theology to demonstrate such a highly biased interpretation of scripture, well you make me wonder what you learned at seminary. I was being kind with most probably because scripture indicates this truth but is not dogmatic on the perfect being the scripture. Your church history is just a biased as you belief in tongues in the church today. Scripture tells us clearly that tongues will cease, prophecy will fail and knowledge will end. The 144,000 witnesses will have the ability to speak in tongues, prophecy, and possess knowledge of Christ given by the Father. The 144,000 are of course Jews not Gentiles so these gifts are given for them.

Joel 2 is prophecy given to Israel. Joel 2 is not prophecy for the church. Peter refers to Joel to explain tongues at Pentecost. Peter clearly states that it is only a partial fulfillment of Joel 2. Joel will be fulfilled when Christ comes to judge the earth in righteousness as He comes to take the throne of David there in Jerusalem.

The Holy Spirit speaks only what the Father has given Him. Why do Pentecostals desire so ardently the gift of tongues when it is not for them? Why not receive the gifts that God has for them with thanksgiving?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

For one who claims to be educated in theology to demonstrate such a highly biased interpretation of scripture, well you make me wonder what you learned at seminary.

I never claimed to go to seminary. On the formal academic side of things I took some courses in a religion department.

[/quote]
I was being kind with most probably because scripture indicates this truth but is not dogmatic on the perfect being the scripture. [/quote]

If the scripture is not dogmatic, why should you be? Why not exercise some restraint on speaking against what might be the work of the Spirit in people's lices.

Scripture tells us clearly that tongues will cease, prophecy will fail and knowledge will end. The 144,000 witnesses will have the ability to speak in tongues, prophecy, and possess knowledge of Christ given by the Father.

If we talk about dogmatic assumptions, you are assuming that the I Corinthians is talking about the gift of tongues in history as opposed to an individual manifestation of it. If it is talking about ceasing in history why would it have to do so before the second coming., like Paul says, so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?

If the 144,000 will speak in tongues and prophecy are to cease and to 'be done away' that has to happen after they appear.

And I do not disagree that they will likely exercise such gifts. But Revelation does not specifically address that except the verse about the testimony of Jesus being the spirit of prophecy insofar as that applies to them.

The 144,000 are of course Jews not Gentiles so these gifts are given for them.

Peter said the gift of Spirit was for them that are afar off. Paul wrote that Gentiles were afar off.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they were former pagans and includes divers tongues and prophecy among the gifts given to his readers. I Corinthians 12 contains doctrinal teaching on this matter. The gifts are given to the saints as the Spirit wills. You have no right to declare that the Spirit may not do so.
[Quote
Joel 2 is prophecy given to Israel. Joel 2 is not prophecy for the church. Peter refers to Joel to explain tongues at Pentecost.[/quote]

Peter was an apostles of Jesus. He said the promise of the Spirit was even for them that are afar off. Should I believe him or you?

Peter clearly states that it is only a partial fulfillment of Joel 2.

A partial fulfillment makes sense but where does Peter 'clearly state' this?

 

[notuptome]

I never claimed to go to seminary. On the formal academic side of things I took some courses in a religion department.

Well, what religion did you study?

If the scripture is not dogmatic, why should you be? Why not exercise some restraint on speaking against what might be the work of the Spirit in people's lices.

The work of the Holy Spirit is attested to by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of every believer. The Holy Spirit operates strictly within the word of God. The Holy Spirit only speaks and acts as He is commanded by the Father and never outside of Gods word.

If we talk about dogmatic assumptions, you are assuming that the I Corinthians is talking about the gift of tongues in history as opposed to an individual manifestation of it. If it is talking about ceasing in history why would it have to do so before the second coming., like Paul says, so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?

There are only three gits that ceased the remaining gifts continue and those are the gifts that we are not to come behind but rather exercise with great liberty in Christ.

If the 144,000 will speak in tongues and prophecy are to cease and to 'be done away' that has to happen after they appear.

And I do not disagree that they will likely exercise such gifts. But Revelation does not specifically address that except the verse about the testimony of Jesus being the spirit of prophecy insofar as that applies to them.

Since the 144,000 have not yet been revealed tongues, prophecy and knowledge have not yet been restored. These gift are for the children of Israel not the Gentile church of today.

Peter said the gift of Spirit was for them that are afar off. Paul wrote that Gentiles were afar off.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians that they were former pagans and includes divers tongues and prophecy among the gifts given to his readers. I Corinthians 12 contains doctrinal teaching on this matter. The gifts are given to the saints as the Spirit wills. You have no right to declare that the Spirit may not do so.

Scripture does not teach what you are proposing. You are mingling and polluting sound doctrine. We were afar off until we were reconciled to God in Christ. Gentiles seek knowledge Jews seek signs. The Holy Spirit is ministering to the Gentle nations not Israel. Israel is being prepared for judgment which comes in the great tribulation. Judgment because of their great apostacy.

Peter was an apostles of Jesus. He said the promise of the Spirit was even for them that are afar off. Should I believe him or you?

Peter was not speaking as you would have us to believe. Peter is saying that the promise of the Holy Spirit is come and men are being born again, being saved without regard to ethnicity. That is separate from the remaining passages in Joel 2 where the pronoun becomes your daughter and your sons which is specific to Israel not all men. You would do well to listen to Peter but you do need to hear exactly what he is teaching not what you want him to teach.

A partial fulfillment makes sense but where does Peter 'clearly state' this?

Reading Joel 2:31 we see that Joel's prophecy speaks of the sun being turned into darkness and the moon into blood. Obviously this has not been fulfilled to date.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[bojack]

For one who claims to be educated in theology to demonstrate such a highly biased interpretation of scripture, well you make me wonder what you learned at seminary. I was being kind with most probably because scripture indicates this truth but is not dogmatic on the perfect being the scripture. Your church history is just a biased as you belief in tongues in the church today. Scripture tells us clearly that tongues will cease, prophecy will fail and knowledge will end. The 144,000 witnesses will have the ability to speak in tongues, prophecy, and possess knowledge of Christ given by the Father. The 144,000 are of course Jews not Gentiles so these gifts are given for them.

Joel 2 is prophecy given to Israel. Joel 2 is not prophecy for the church. Peter refers to Joel to explain tongues at Pentecost. Peter clearly states that it is only a partial fulfillment of Joel 2. Joel will be fulfilled when Christ comes to judge the earth in righteousness as He comes to take the throne of David there in Jerusalem.

The Holy Spirit speaks only what the Father has given Him. Why do Pentecostals desire so ardently the gift of tongues when it is not for them? Why not receive the gifts that God has for them with thanksgiving?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Are you a Calvinist notuptome ?

 

[garee]

It is presumptuous to assume from those verses that these things have been done away with. It does not say that. It is speaking in the future tense, otherwise it would say in v8 for example, that prophesies and tongues 'HAVE BEEN' done away with, rather than 'WILL BE'. This is why in verses 10, 11 & 12 it speaks about the time when we are with Christ. This letter was written after Christ had been on this earth, so these verses are referring to when He returns.

I would offer not things put away but new revelations .We have the perfect law in the book of the law, the Bible. There are no laws missing from the book of prophecy .

The verses refer to when God is no longer brining new prophecy . We have the perfect with no laws missing. .The last prophet to bring new is John.

We are warned before time (Behold, I have told you "before") after the promise of Joel the promise of prophets from all nations. This before the last words of John on the island of Patmos.. and after as the last revelation last verse .. . do not add or substract. The end

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you "before". Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Mathew 24: 23-28

 

[Dino246]

I would offer not things put away but new revelations .We have the perfect law in the book of the law, the Bible. There are no laws missing from the book of prophecy .

The verses refer to when God is no longer brining new prophecy . We have the perfect with no laws missing. .The last prophet to bring new is John.

Your reasoning is flawed here: you are saying that God will no longer bring new prophecy when the gift of prophecy has ended. You're not offering a sound argument, just two statements that depend on each other for support.

1 Corinthians 13 does not say, "when the perfect law is come" but "when that which is perfect is come". Paul doesn't specify the completed canon of Scripture, and verse 12 doesn't support that interpretation.

 

[garee]

Your reasoning is flawed here: you are saying that God will no longer bring new prophecy when the gift of prophecy has ended. You're not offering a sound argument, just two statements that depend on each other for support.

1 Corinthians 13 does not say, "when the perfect law is come" but "when that which is perfect is come". Paul doesn't specify the completed canon of Scripture, and verse 12 doesn't support that interpretation.

If it not the law that is perfect which was to come the one standard. Then what? The philosophies of men?

There is no circular reasoning as a seal with that kind of idea. That would be like separating parables from prophecy or tongues the language of God .

The perfect law is made up of two half's. (1) That which is literally seen the written law. It as it is written kills . And (2) the law of faith the unseen work of the spirit working together make one perfect law . The reason the Son of man was sent in flesh typified as sinful corrupted making the law perfect so it could do its work Quickening our souls giving understanding to those who has none etc .

Romans 8 King James Version (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Why go above the perfect to the temporal things of men? Need more than he has revealed? How much is enough?

Psalms 19:7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

 

[Dino246]

If it not the law that is perfect which was to come the one standard. Then what? The philosophies of men?

Obviously not; that's a silly idea. Since you refuse to learn from me, I suggest you do your own homework on the question.

There is no circular reasoning as a seal with that kind of idea. That would be like separating parables from prophecy or tongues the language of God .

It's best not to use terms that you don't understand. Instead, go and learn what they mean.

Why go above the perfect to the temporal things of men? Need more than he has revealed? How much is enough?

You keep repeating your error. It's tiresome.

 

[presidente]

Well, what religion did you study?

I learned the Bible by reading it and going to church and memorizing books of the Bible in a teen Bible quiz program as a teen. As a university student, I took an OT class, a course in Shi'ite Islam, and courses in Arabic and Hebrew.

There are only three gits that ceased the remaining gifts continue and those are the gifts that we are not to come behind but rather exercise with great liberty in Christ.

Paul wrote 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Why would he write than if the gifts he was going to write about the most would cease before Jesus came back? Paul was also leading up to a discussion of the resurrection at the return of Christ, and the end (telos) as he wrote I Corinthians. Assuming that the perfect he wrote of there is a completed canon, something he doesn't mention in his epistles, is some heavy eisegesis.

Since the 144,000 have not yet been revealed tongues, prophecy and knowledge have not yet been restored. These gift are for the children of Israel not the Gentile church of today.

Why do you base your beliefs on speculation. It doesn't make sense to interpret I Corinthians to say that tongues and prophecy will cease to have you revive those gifts in the future. The Bible doesn't even mention the 144,000 speaking in tongues.

I Corinthians 12 addresses the readers as those formerly led by idols, and then lists gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy and divers tongues, among those the readers exercised. These were predominantly Gentiles. The Bible already teaches us that these gifts are for Gentiles, too. You have no Biblical basis for your assertions. You are basing doctrines not on scripture but on your own theories about which scriptures are for whom.

We were afar off until we were reconciled to God in Christ.

The promise involves repenting, being baptized and receiving the Spirit, and it is also for those who are afar off. They don't remain afar off if they repent.

Gentiles seek knowledge Jews seek signs. The Holy Spirit is ministering to the Gentle nations not Israel.

This is false. Paul says of salvation, 'for there is no difference.' He wrote in Romans 11 that blindness __in part__ is happened to Israel. That implies that part are not blinded. The Spirit will minister to ethnic Jews who believe in Christ and also to Gentiles. Most of the preachers, apostles, etc. mentioned in the New Testament were Israelites.

Peter was not speaking as you would have us to believe. Peter is saying that the promise of the Holy Spirit is come and men are being born again, being saved without regard to ethnicity.

If you believed that, why would you say that the Spirit does not minister to Israel now. The work of the Spirit encompasses salvation and also things Peter actually talked about in the passage before telling of the promise of the Spirit. He spoke about prophesying, visions, and dreams.

That is separate from the remaining passages in Joel 2 where the pronoun becomes your daughter and your sons which is specific to Israel not all men.

Paul wrote to the predominantly Gentile Galatians about He who ministers the Spirit and works miracles 'among you.' The former idol-worshipper Corinthians exercised spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are not exclusively for Israel. You need to read your Bible and actually believe the parts that do not fit with your theories.

You would do well to listen to Peter but you do need to hear exactly what he is teaching not what you want him to teach.

I could say the same to you.

Reading Joel 2:31 we see that Joel's prophecy speaks of the sun being turned into darkness and the moon into blood. Obviously this has not been fulfilled to date.

Those who take an allegorical approach might disagree, but I am not arguing that. What Peter described started at Pentecost and continued on.

 

[presidente]

If it not the law that is perfect which was to come the one standard. Then what? The philosophies of men?

The passage says 'that which is perfect' not 'the one standard.' Paul writes about something perfect that would come. When it comes, his speech, knowledge, and understanding at that time would be like a child's in comparison to his speech, knowledge, and understanding that would come later. He went on to describe the transformation that occurs at the resurrection at the return of Christ. Mortal puts on immorality. Corruption puts on incorruption.

Chapter 13 lays out topics that will be discussed later in the epistle:

tongues, prophecy, and the coming of the perfect.

Read the next two chapters and read about:

Tongues, prophecy, and the state of the believer at the resurrection of the dead.

There is no circular reasoning as a seal with that kind of idea.

I don't think anyone else will understand what you mean.

Paul also associates perfection with the resurrection of the dead--himself personally being raised from the dead.
Philippians 3

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

The resurrection is also a topic discussed in I Corinthians. See chapter 15. The completed canon is not.

 

[garee]

For one who claims to be educated in theology to demonstrate such a highly biased interpretation of scripture, well you make me wonder what you learned at seminary. I was being kind with most probably because scripture indicates this truth but is not dogmatic on the perfect being the scripture. Your church history is just a biased as you belief in tongues in the church today. Scripture tells us clearly that tongues will cease, prophecy will fail and knowledge will end. The 144,000 witnesses will have the ability to speak in tongues, prophecy, and possess knowledge of Christ given by the Father. The 144,000 are of course Jews not Gentiles so these gifts are given for them.

Joel 2 is prophecy given to Israel. Joel 2 is not prophecy for the church. Peter refers to Joel to explain tongues at Pentecost. Peter clearly states that it is only a partial fulfillment of Joel 2. Joel will be fulfilled when Christ comes to judge the earth in righteousness as He comes to take the throne of David there in Jerusalem.

The Holy Spirit speaks only what the Father has given Him. Why do Pentecostals desire so ardently the gift of tongues when it is not for them? Why not receive the gifts that God has for them with thanksgiving?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

It would seem many forget the time of reformation has come as if we were still waiting for something..

The reformation informed the Jew they are cut off bear no more fruit forever more. Jesus found only leaves used to represent the healing of all nations to show and Jewish flesh which did not profit is longer used to represent the whole of mankind. The Son of man, Jesus had come. . the veil was rent opening the way to the unseen glory of faith .the one time demonstration is over. The government of God is restored to a time period when there was no outward form used to represent our invisible King of kings as do the Pagan religions of the world.

Our invisible God who is not a man as us does not separate his prophecy and apply it to one and not another. As if it came after flesh and blood of mankind. And God was served by human hands in any way shape or form . He removed that abomination of desolation standing in the holy unseen place of the glory of God the place as the source of Christian faith.

As new creatures we know each other no more after the flesh. No male nor female, Jew nor gentile. Even those who did know Christ after the temporal corrupted flesh that Jesus called faithless.. like Thomas. We known him no more that way forever more. God is not a man as us and nether is their a infallible Master that stands in the holy unseen place of the glory of God. When accused of good Master Jesu refused to stand in the Holy Place of the Father as a abomination of desolation. But rather he said one is good. God. Call no man on earth Master or Rabi. . one is our unseen Master in heaven .

2 Corinthians 5:15-17 King James Version (KJV)And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The 144,000 is simply those whose names (the redeemed elect)are written in the lamb of God book written from the foundation of the world. The bride of Christ, as the mother of us all. Called the freedwoman . A beautiful picture shown as a parable of the mother of us all (Christ bride) in Revelation 12

The period of time that God set aside to use the flesh of a Jews that were made up of the Amorite and Hittites came to a end at the time of reformation. God used Joel to show the fulfillment of the law of tongues according to its foundation found in Isiah 28. A sign against unbelief of mankind ,God mocking those who with stammering lips mocked, prophecy in exchange for the oral traditions of men .

Note ...red = the infallible word of God the name of God as prophecy

Note … green = those who hear prophecy and believe in a God not seen .

Note. . . black = Those who follow after andanother maner of spiirt the oral traditon of men and see no evil in doing so.

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine. Jerimimiah 44:16 -18

Signs are for those who believe not. No faith according to sola scriptura, as it is written alone . Prophecy as the one source of faith for the believers.

In the law (Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14:21-22

 

[garee]

The passage says 'that which is perfect' not 'the one standard.' Paul writes about something perfect that would come. When it comes, his speech, knowledge, and understanding at that time would be like a child's in comparison to his speech, knowledge, and understanding that would come later. He went on to describe the transformation that occurs at the resurrection at the return of Christ. Mortal puts on immorality. Corruption puts on incorruption.

Chapter 13 lays out topics that will be discussed later in the epistle:

tongues, prophecy, and the coming of the perfect.

Read the next two chapters and read about:

Tongues, prophecy, and the state of the believer at the resurrection of the dead.




I don't think anyone else will understand what you mean.

Paul also associates perfection with the resurrection of the dead--himself personally being raised from the dead.
Philippians 3

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

The resurrection is also a topic discussed in I Corinthians. See chapter 15. The completed canon is not.

The section in chapter 13 applies to chapter 15. It is not separate from it.

I would think the perfect is the standard. It includes the warning do not add or subtract. (sealed with 7 seals) The end. Amen?

It is guarded like in Genesis is by angels with flaming swords that represent the letter of the law, the sword of the Spirit. .

We have the perfect law made up of two kind of laws .One seen the letter. . . the other invisible called the "law of faith". This is with no laws missing by which we could know him more adequately .

The resurrection of the dead fulfils another kind of perfect. One in which no man has received. . all die not receiving our new incorruptible bodies. (Hebrew 11:39) It is our living hope that goes beyond human hope. .

In the new heavens and earth those who will not remember the perfect, as to prophecy . The things under the Sun will never come to mind or be remembered forever more.

The letter of the law death will be cast into the judgment of God never to rise and condemn an entire creation. Until then we are informed in Mathew 5 not one Jot or tittle can be removed from the perfect.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Dino246]

For one who claims to be educated in theology to demonstrate such a highly biased interpretation of scripture, well you make me wonder what you learned at seminary.

I challenge you to find a seminary-trained theologian who does not have a highly biased interpretation of Scripture, at least on some issues.

 

[Jackson123]

Well, what religion did you study?

The work of the Holy Spirit is attested to by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of every believer. The Holy Spirit operates strictly within the word of God. The Holy Spirit only speaks and acts as He is commanded by the Father and never outside of Gods word.

There are only three gits that ceased the remaining gifts continue and those are the gifts that we are not to come behind but rather exercise with great liberty in Christ.

Since the 144,000 have not yet been revealed tongues, prophecy and knowledge have not yet been restored. These gift are for the children of Israel not the Gentile church of today.


Scripture does not teach what you are proposing. You are mingling and polluting sound doctrine. We were afar off until we were reconciled to God in Christ. Gentiles seek knowledge Jews seek signs. The Holy Spirit is ministering to the Gentle nations not Israel. Israel is being prepared for judgment which comes in the great tribulation. Judgment because of their great apostacy.


Peter was not speaking as you would have us to believe. Peter is saying that the promise of the Holy Spirit is come and men are being born again, being saved without regard to ethnicity. That is separate from the remaining passages in Joel 2 where the pronoun becomes your daughter and your sons which is specific to Israel not all men. You would do well to listen to Peter but you do need to hear exactly what he is teaching not what you want him to teach.


Reading Joel 2:31 we see that Joel's prophecy speaks of the sun being turned into darkness and the moon into blood. Obviously this has not been fulfilled to date.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What are those 3 gifts remaining your mention above?

 

[garee]

I challenge you to find a seminary-trained theologian who does not have a highly biased interpretation of Scripture, at least on some issues.

I would agree .I think of Saul the Hebrew of Hebrews who attended the best schools had a a high zeal for hoping he knew God. One who was given letters of approval from the high priest to murder those who apposed the law of the fathers. a false zeal for knowing God . Therefore establishing the manner of spirit that apposed all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) .Revealing their pagan foundation as in out of sight out of mind .No faith to hear God.

Acts 22:2-5 King James Version (KJV) Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Acts 24:5-6 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.. . . . .(The law of the fathers oral traditions of corruptible men.)

Did they make the word of God "sola scriptura" without effect? And prove Paul a liar?

Acts 24:5-6 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

They simply went back and worshiped the fathers seen as if they were the unseen eternal..

 

[notuptome]

I learned the Bible by reading it and going to church and memorizing books of the Bible in a teen Bible quiz program as a teen. As a university student, I took an OT class, a course in Shi'ite Islam, and courses in Arabic and Hebrew.

Great.

Paul wrote 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Why would he write than if the gifts he was going to write about the most would cease before Jesus came back? Paul was also leading up to a discussion of the resurrection at the return of Christ, and the end (telos) as he wrote I Corinthians. Assuming that the perfect he wrote of there is a completed canon, something he doesn't mention in his epistles, is some heavy eisegesis.

There are gifts of the Holy Spirit not included exclusively in 1 Cor 12-14.

Why do you base your beliefs on speculation. It doesn't make sense to interpret I Corinthians to say that tongues and prophecy will cease to have you revive those gifts in the future. The Bible doesn't even mention the 144,000 speaking in tongues.

Since the church will be gone from the earth there would be no one else to speak in tongues.

I Corinthians 12 addresses the readers as those formerly led by idols, and then lists gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy and divers tongues, among those the readers exercised. These were predominantly Gentiles. The Bible already teaches us that these gifts are for Gentiles, too. You have no Biblical basis for your assertions. You are basing doctrines not on scripture but on your own theories about which scriptures are for whom.

Among the gifts listed in 1 Cor 12 three are stated to end in 1 Cor 13:8 although they are still in operation in the apostolic church in 1 Cor 14. We could discuss the differences in the prophecies which are done away in 1 Cor 13:8 and the prophecy of 1 Cor 12:10 but that is more than a light discussion.

The promise involves repenting, being baptized and receiving the Spirit, and it is also for those who are afar off. They don't remain afar off if they repent.

Very good we are reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus Christ.

This is false. Paul says of salvation, 'for there is no difference.' He wrote in Romans 11 that blindness __in part__ is happened to Israel. That implies that part are not blinded. The Spirit will minister to ethnic Jews who believe in Christ and also to Gentiles. Most of the preachers, apostles, etc. mentioned in the New Testament were Israelites.

You are wrong in your interpretation. Every kindred, tongue and kind are equally saved by the blood of Christ but salvation does not change ethnicity. While the Gentile church is receiving the blessings God promised to Israel the church will not prevent God from fulfilling His promises to Israel which are specific to Israel.

If you believed that, why would you say that the Spirit does not minister to Israel now. The work of the Spirit encompasses salvation and also things Peter actually talked about in the passage before telling of the promise of the Spirit. He spoke about prophesying, visions, and dreams.

Israel because of their apostacy cannot receive the blessing God has for them. They will be the object of the great tribulation to bring them to repentance much like the captivities in their history.

Paul wrote to the predominantly Gentile Galatians about He who ministers the Spirit and works miracles 'among you.' The former idol-worshipper Corinthians exercised spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts are not exclusively for Israel. You need to read your Bible and actually believe the parts that do not fit with your theories.

Yet Paul longed to see his fellow Jews saved. Paul always started with the Jews before he went to the Gentiles.

I could say the same to you.
Those who take an allegorical approach might disagree, but I am not arguing that. What Peter described started at Pentecost and continued on.

Always start with a literal interpretation. Allegorical interpretation must be used in some instances but when a literal interpretation works it is always the correct interpretation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger