Not By Works

[gb9]

So John lied?

Enough said.

Sorry, I refuse to accept any doctrine that calls an apostle of God a liar just so it will support my belief

I spent most of the afternoon explaining to chris how Saul was not a true believer, and God eventually departed from him, and David was a true believer , and even through he sinned ( badly), God never departed from him.


religious people like chris have no interest in seeing anything other than their beliefs. they ignore their own sin.

I know. I have a cousin just like this. blinded by religion .

 

[Judges1318]

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Yes! But don't tell me, tell those who insist that you don't have to live in holiness to be saved when Jesus comes back because you can't lose your salvation.

I don't see that too often.

I would go so far as to say rationalization of sin is a hallmark of those who defend once saved always saved doctrine.

Your judgment calls sound very biased.

Yes, my judgments are very biased......biased according to scripture. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, you are to consider it a duck. That's an entirely scriptural bias.

It's unbelievers who generally believe they are "holier than thou."

Actually, I agree with this. Just as I believe that going on the defensive about other people living in holiness is generally the rant of an unbeliever.

You keep bringing up these fringe denominations that none of us takes very seriously to defend this supposed fact that working to earn your salvation is a problem in our mainline evangelical denominations we call the church. No, the exact opposite is true. We have an evangelical church full of people who have been brainwashed into thinking that not having works of obedience does not matter because salvation is not by works (which it isn't) and because it isn't by works once you are saved you are always saved.

That being said, I will say that if the church is guilty of any reliance on any 'works' it's their reliance on their association and participation in church activities. Note I said church activities and ministries, not works of obedience. And they will make their plea to enter the kingdom of God based on those ministerial duties and their association with Jesus and the church. They will not enter the kingdom of God. You know this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes! But don't tell me, tell those who insist that you don't have to live in holiness to be saved when Jesus comes back because you can't lose your salvation.
.

it says they CANT (Descriptive)

you twist it to say they MUST NOT (prescriptive)

i pray you see the major problem soon.

 

[NayborBear]

the peoples reply...

vs 34 - Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

they wanted that bread of life, or were they still looking for physical bread?

Jesus Reply...

vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Notice, it does not say eat bread at the eucharist. or the bread of the last supper where Jesus says take eat this is my body. which he said eat often, it says come TO HIM, and BELIEVE or have LIVING FAITH in HIM, And whoever does this, they will never hunger or thirst (because the food which they eat, again, endures to eternal life or forever, ie, its life giving power NEVER fades.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

Right here Jesus shows us why they could not understand, They did not believe!

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1. Jesus says, "I am the bread of life" I am the one who gives eternal life.
2. He who comes shall never hunger. this is he who hears the words of God and takes them in (eats them) and notice, all we have to do come, Once we come, HE WILL NEVER CAST US OUT
3. he who believes will never thirst (this is he who hears the words and believes. For they are given spiritual water, or the holy spirit)
4. All who the father has promised the son, from adam till the last man living, Will come to jesus, And jesus will save them, He will resurect them at the last day.
5. This is the bread of life. and the will of the father, "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

peoples response...

vs 41 - 42 - The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

1. the people were trying to take Jesus literaly, and not figuratively or spiritually,
2. because they could not understand, they rejected his words as foolishness. (the things of God are foolish to those who are not his, who are not his? Those who do not believe)

Jesus is referring to what Catholics call "transubstiation" (spelt something like that).
A very real happening, along the path of the "overcomer", to the "Holy Priesthood."
And, I'm not, nor ever was a Catholic!

Again! Simply the "perils" of the OSAS crowd!

 

[TooFastTurtle]

John 6

I agree that reading John 6 only one would conclude its OSAS one and done.

But how do we reconcile that with some treading on the son of God and the blood by which they *were* sanctified? How can they be sanctified by the blood if they were not saved.

These demand an answer as well, how can we view them in light of what John 6 is saying? I realize many answers can be answered with they went out from among us because they were not of us, but how does that work with these who have been sanctified by the blood? Could you respond to that, or anyone else? I would like to thank VCO again for responding to me regarding 1 Cor 6:9-11 and I found his view of it biblical and logical, good view.

 

[Judges1318]

How do I sound like an unbeliever?

Because you have the trait common to unbelievers of going off on people who, real or not, live in holiness.

So because I don't live in fear and bondage to IN-security about my salvation I sound like an unbeliever?

Stop right there.
Not all beliefs about being able to lose your salvation breed insecurity. If a person thinks the abundance of their works earns their salvation, then yes, that will probably breed insecurity as to whether you have enough works to earn salvation. But that is hardly what I've been sharing here.

Assurance of a secure salvation comes out of knowing that as long as you believe and trust in Christ's blood right now you are in fact very much saved, right now. The flip side is if you don't believe in the blood of Christ, or are living in your old unchanged life you should be very insecure and not assured of any perceived salvation you may think you have. That awareness is not a bad thing! You show me in the Bible where it says not to have that kind of fear and I will show you in the Bible where it says to have that fear. Deal?

I've met plenty of NOSAS folks who trust in their works to maintain their salvation.

I honestly don't care about Mormons and Catholics and various other denoms outside of mainstream evangelical Protestant Christianity. Myself and many others don't consider them relevant to a discussion about matters within mainline evangelical church. You're reaching outside of the church to make a case inside the church. That's not going to work. Instead why don't you talk about the reliance on ministerial works and the association with Jesus and his people that those in our circles rely on?

Anyone who claims they are saved, yet they continues to run around living like the devil is obviously deceived.

Like I say, don't tell me. Tell your once saved always saved friends who think works don't matter because salvation is not by works and because of that once you are saved you are always saved.

Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ's finished work of redemption (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

That is exactly what the evangelical once saved always saved crowd needs to hear.

No matter what? If someone is running around continuously living like the devil, yet claiming they are saved and will always be saved, such a person is deceived. Once we are saved we will always be saved IF we were truly saved to begin with. There are plenty of false conversions in "professing" Christendom and there is no comfort in that.

Once again, don't tell me, tell your once saved always saved brethren. They are the one's being deceived into thinking they can live in sin.

The only meaningful difference between my doctrine and your's is I believe a person is free to go back to unbelief. I don't know why it's so important for you to insist that a person can not go back to unbelief after having genuinely believed other than you can't help but to see that if a person thinks they can lose salvation that can only mean they believe salvation is by works.

I do believe a person can fall away from genuine belief and be lost, and I absolutely do not believe that works earn salvation. I'm on that narrow road between the works gospel and the 'you can't lose your salvation' gospel. We exist.....we're a few people who believe you must keep believing to be saved and who do not believe that works earn salvation. Stop thinking that if don't believe in once saved always saved doctrine then you can only be a works salvationist and, therefore, you are wrong in your beliefs.

 

[PS]

I WONDER if these loser spiritual BUMS only obey their parents and try to please them because of the CONSTANT THREAT of being disowned hanging over their heads? Or is it because they LOVE their parents and want them to be proud that their son made it?

Just thinking out loud btw I seasoned my insults with love before I typed em out so it should be AIIGHT

Paul said to run the race to the end, and I can imagine him saying, "The OSAS people have left, they do not belong to us."

 

[Judges1318]

But how do we reconcile that with some treading on the son of God and the blood by which they *were* sanctified? How can they be sanctified by the blood if they were not saved.

They claim that 'sanctified' is referring to unbelievers who have been sanctified by God for contact with believers, like an unbelieving spouse and their children are 'sanctified' for contact with by a believer.

Problem: No where in scripture does God sanctify a willfully sinning unbeliever to be in contact with believers in the church. The Bible instructs us to expel them for the very reason that they are NOT sanctified.

 

[Judges1318]

I realize many answers can be answered with they went out from among us because they were not of us, but how does that work with these who have been sanctified by the blood?

It doesn't.
Even right in John's letter where he says 'those who left show they were never with us' he instructs the believers who remained to not leave, too. That obviously indicates 1 John 2:19 doesn't mean what once saved always saved is sure it means. Besides, the believing Galatians and Corinthians departed from the pure message of the gospel they received. They were really saved, and they left. Kind of ruins the once saved always saved interpretation of 1 John 2:19. So it means something else, and I think it has to do with the reason why they left. The leaving in their case seems to have had to do with never having the correct fundamental knowledge of Christ's appearance in the world upon which to be born again.

 

[Judges1318]

Discipline is necessary at times and God does chasten His children. (Hebrews 12:6) Always saved does not mean always perfect or without discipline, as some of God's children end up finding out the hard way.

You're missing the point I made.
The text says to discipline that person in the church so their spirit may be saved when Jesus returns.
But if you can't lose your salvation why must their flesh die so they may be saved when Jesus returns?

 

[Judges1318]

The objective was repentance (which this man did as can be seen in 2 Corinthians).

....so he may be saved when Jesus returns.
Kind of kills once saved always saved doctrine which says there would be no need to do that to be saved because you are already saved.

 

[CherieR]

Rom 9:30-31 CEV What does all of this mean? It means that the Gentiles were not trying to be acceptable to God, but they found that he would accept them if they had faith. (31) It also means that the people of Israel were not acceptable to God. And why not? It was because they were trying to be acceptable by obeying the Law instead of by having faith in God. The people of Israel fell over the stone that makes people stumble,

Our salvation is dependent on following Jesus all the time. God rejected those who kept Old Testament law.

Rom 11:1-8 CEV
Am I saying that God has turned his back on his people? Certainly not! I am one of the people of Israel, and I myself am a descendant of Abraham from the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God did not turn his back on his chosen people. Don't you remember reading in the Scriptures how Elijah complained to God about the people of Israel? (3) He said, "Lord, they killed your prophets and destroyed your altars. I am the only one left, and now they want to kill me." (4) But the Lord told Elijah, "I still have seven thousand followers who have not worshiped Baal." (5) It is the same way now. God was kind to the people of Israel, and so a few of them are still his followers. (6) This happened because of God's undeserved kindness and not because of anything they have done. It could not have happened except for God's kindness. (7) This means that only a chosen few of the people of Israel found what all of them were searching for. And the rest of them were stubborn, (8) just as the Scriptures say, "God made them so stupid that their eyes are blind, and their ears are still deaf."

The majority, turned away from God of their own free will and worshipped Baal. People can and do turn away from God. We MUST remain faithful.

In conclusion, follow Jesus till your dying day, and never look back.

Do you think that is bad advice? If not, then teach it. What you teach gives false assurance and can cause people to fall away. If I was God, I would hold you personally responsible.

Why don't you believe in eternal security? Who and what do you depend on to keep you saved?

Also when you speak of falling away and turning away from God do you mean not believing in Jesus anymore or sinning too much or something else?

 

[Judges1318]

Men like C.H Spurgeon, Francis Schaeffer, William Carey, George Mueller, William Wilberforce, Isaac Watts, August Toplady, (wrote Rock of Ages) John Newton (wrote Amazing Grace), John Bunyan, and others held to Eternal Security. These men did not stay in their old life. They were vessels used by God.

Why do you suppose the 'once saved always saved' church at large is not following their lead then?

 

[CherieR]

Notice how Paul seems to contradict himself:

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. -Romans 11:1-2 KJV

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? - Romans 11:15 KJV

Did he cast them away or did he not cast them away?

I believe his point that the difference involves those who believed among Israel verses this as who did not believe in Jesus. Remember that Paul himself was an Israelite.

Look into the passage more if you like. It can help if you think a passage contradicts another one, to research more about it.

 

[NayborBear]

THEY DID NOT BELIEVE FROM THE BEGINING ALL THEY DID WAS PROVE THEY DID NOT TRUST GOD BY THEIR COMPLAINING.

THEY WERE NOT SECURE BECAUSE THEY NEVER HAD FAITH

This is atypical "tradition/precept of man" response from one who has been cut-off!

Boast much?

Just like everyone else who doesn't "believe" as he sez "they" do!

 

[Judges1318]

I WONDER if these loser spiritual BUMS only obey their parents and try to please them because of the CONSTANT THREAT of being disowned hanging over their heads? Or is it because they LOVE their parents and want them to be proud that their son made it?

It's a matter of being a son who inherits eternal life and being one who doesn't.

Remember, Abraham had two sons.

 

[VCO]

Jesus is referring to what Catholics call "transubstiation" (spelt something like that).
A very real happening, along the path of the "overcomer", to the "Holy Priesthood."
And, I'm not, nor ever was a Catholic!

Again! Simply the "perils" of the OSAS crowd!

NO it is NOT of the OSAS crowd, as we believe it is SYMBOLISM, that the Wine and the Bread only represents, and do not TURN INTO the Body and Blood, upon ingesting it. Your concept of OSAS is Severely Distorted. Get your Info on OSAS, directly from us; instead of repeating what your teachers have unwittingly taught you about our Beliefs, which only amounts to lies.

The word is spelled: transubstantiation, and refers to the belief of the Catholic Church, Lutheran Church, and a few others.

 

[Judges1318]

Look into the passage more if you like. It can help if you think a passage contradicts another one

No, I don't think there is a contradiction.
I just like to point out that Romans 11 says, both, Israel has been cast away, and Israel has not been cast away, whenever it comes up in debate.

 

[Chris1975]

The bible writes of Saul:
6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs come to you, that you do as the occasion demands; for God is with you.
9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God [c]gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day.
11 And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?”

>>>>>>Yet we are to believe that God does this for an UNBELIEVER? Gives them a new heart and makes them a new man.......

Then the change
17 So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are [b]consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord?

22 So Samuel said:
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of [d]witchcraft,
And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
He also has rejected you from being king.”

And the Conclusion
1 Samuel 18
12 Now Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, but had departed from Saul.

Saul was a believer... for GB9 (helping with the highlighter).

 

[PS]

Why don't you believe in eternal security? Who and what do you depend on to keep you saved?

Also when you speak of falling away and turning away from God do you mean not believing in Jesus anymore or sinning too much or something else?

We are saved eternally provided we continue with the Lord to the end, do not grieve the Holy Spirit, or have a change of heart. I know you people say that cannot happen, but I know how changeable people can be. The Bible is very specific about backsliders, the warnings are horrendous and the Israelites flip-flopped very easily between the true God and false gods. We would not be warned against it happening, if it were not true. My concerns are not for myself but for others, and they are not dispelled by their easy dismissal of such things. All scripture is to be taken seriously, but the cults are very selective, and it is this selectivity and misapplication of scripture that causes me to be alarmed.