Mystery Babylon
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You are contending that the ten horns rise up out of Israel(10 Jewish generals) the Bible says they rise from the fourth beast https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-24.htm ...
I in times past have described mine own self as "outside the camps",, that is I am not of the mind of the four major eschatological positions.
In Revelation 9 Abandon/Apollonian is denoted at the time given(1st cent.ad) as having a king(present tense). in Revelation 17:12 the horns have not yet received kingdoms and are not yet kings(so future tense). Now as we discussed there is no woman riding the beast of Daniel but there are in Revelation.
So in Revelation 11:7 the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit "makes war and kills ect." ..So is the beast in Revelation 17:8(ascends out) and the ones in Revelation 9 the same? In Revelation 11:10 the two prophets "torment" the ones dwelling on the earth(who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads) and in Revelation 9:5 the scorpions torment those who "do not have the seal of God in their foreheads"... https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/11.htm https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9.htm
So in 1 Corinthians 15;6 https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-56.htm Paul states that "The sting of death is sin,and the power of sin is the Law". Then in Galatians 3:1-3 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3:1-3&version=KJV Paul is explaining to the Galatians this in that they were trying to be under the Law.
Now In Revelation 9:11 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/9.htm they "have a king"(not future but present tense in 1st century ad) Abandon(Hebrew denotes the Jews) Apollyon(Gentiles). But they have a king present tense and they seek death but cannot find it(Rev.9:6) that is they(Hebrews/Gentiles) seek to be under the Law and "the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the Law"
In examining Revelation 9 they have the hair of a woman(religious),face of a man(looks as if God),crown of gold(kingship/authority) in verse 1(Rev.9:1)the star is cast from Heaven and they are given power to torment those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads(so those who have another mark).
Now I am not in difference with you over the beast that ascends out of the pit in Revelation 11:7 nor Revelation 17:8 but see them as separate from Revelation 9 and I know it is something that most every camp of eschatology agrees on.
The beast that is in the pit in Revelation 17:8 is the carnal Israel who wanted a kingdom as the other nations in 1 Samuel 8 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_samuel/8.htm in that they refused the Messiah as King and set out to set off the fourth beast(Rome) from it's rule before it had ruled over them as Daniel stated it would. In doing so they received an deadly wound in ad70 and were in the pit in Revelation 17:8 until 1948 when the earth said "let us make an image of the beast that was,was not,,ect." and at that time it ascended out of the abyss and the world wonders after it and will until the man of sin arises in it.
Any way I understand that many may not agree with this in that they see Israel as precious without remembering that an man of sin will come prior to the lord and set in a place we all see as the Israel of God and sit in an temple and confess to be God when he is not. which is in our midst already and has influence over many who give support to it. Not that I speak evil of Gods Israel for it will come but instead of an king that is an man Jesus himself will establish it and he will rule it unlike the one we have made which will be in the way and removed in that day.
Yes, its the same Demon, Apollyon is the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17, Rev. 11 and Rev. 9. Hes a king thus he is OF THE SEVEN...but is an 8th. God loves giving us these riddles that confuse the world, but we can figure out. The Seven Heads and 10 Horns always represent the same area, the Mediterranean Sea Region, but its only 7 Heads to John because he was being shown future events, likewise with Apollyon, he was being shown future events. Satan is in Heaven when hes cast down at the end, or on the Heavens. Men don't come back to life, we die once and are judged. The only Beast that Ascends out of the pit that is named AND is a king is Apollyon.
How can a Nation be in the Abyss ? Israel were as Dead Men's Bones, but the Jews were still alive on earth, God just didn't recognize them as a Nation until 1948, but they still haven't repented, which they MUST DO, before the 70th week judgment ends. I see Israel as God describes her. God married Israel, then divorced her, but He will call her to repentance after the Rapture, so says God in Malachi 4:5-6, Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:8-9. The Beast that receives a Mortal Wound is Rome, the Church delivered that wound. Only after the Rapture can the Beast come back to life via Conquering Jerusalem/Israel and the MANY Nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region. But Israel has to repent BEFORE Jesus returns, because all men must come to Christ Jesus by FAITH ALONE. The Two-witnesses call them to repentance just before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, that is why the Flee Judea unto Petra.
How can a Nation be in the Abyss ? Israel were as Dead Men's Bones, but the Jews were still alive on earth, God just didn't recognize them as a Nation until 1948, but they still haven't repented, which they MUST DO, before the 70th week judgment ends. I see Israel as God describes her. God married Israel, then divorced her, but He will call her to repentance after the Rapture, so says God in Malachi 4:5-6, Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:8-9. The Beast that receives a Mortal Wound is Rome, the Church delivered that wound. Only after the Rapture can the Beast come back to life via Conquering Jerusalem/Israel and the MANY Nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region. But Israel has to repent BEFORE Jesus returns, because all men must come to Christ Jesus by FAITH ALONE. The Two-witnesses call them to repentance just before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, that is why the Flee Judea unto Petra.
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LOL. Pot calling the kettle...
Nothing, and I mean nothing else was in focus prophetically in the NT except the destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem and the revenge God would have on those who killed His Son. To think there is any relevance to our times or our future is WAYYY OUT THERE and shows complete and utter ignorance of history.
Nothing, and I mean nothing else was in focus prophetically in the NT except the destruction of the temple and desolation of Jerusalem and the revenge God would have on those who killed His Son. To think there is any relevance to our times or our future is WAYYY OUT THERE and shows complete and utter ignorance of history.
Apollyon is Vespasian’s son Titus, the commander of the Legio XV Apollinaris (the Fifteenth Apollonian Legion).
At the start of the Jewish War, Titus was the commander of the 15th Apollonian Legion before being promoted to general over all the Roman legions in Israel at his father’s coronation. Thus Apollyon is an apt title for the former commander of Legio XV Apollinaris (the 15th Apollonian Legion) who destroyed Jerusalem and its temple. The soldiers of the Apollonian Legion are represented by locusts because locusts are sacred to Apollo. Just prior to the fall of Jerusalem a multitude of auxiliary units from the Euphrates converged on Jerusalem in fulfillment of Revelation 9:14.
The four auxiliary units that reinforced Titus’ army during the siege of Jerusalem were donated by four Roman client kings Antiochus, Agrippa II, Sohemus and Malchus. And just as Titus is Apollyon, the angel of the Abyss of v.11, these four kings are the earthly counterparts of the four angels bound at the Euphrates of v. 14 since Sohemus and Malchus ruled kingdoms on opposite sides of the Euphrates. Thus two out of these four units were drawn directly from the Euphrates.
Verse 16 says that the number of these “mounted troops was two hundred million.” However, this figure was a mistranslated, the Interlinear and Young’s Literal Translation seems to translate the number of these troops in v. 16 as 20,000–the exact number of auxiliary troops that accompanied the Roman forces at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. In Revelation 9:1-3 a swarm of locusts is released from the Abyss, the dark underworld of the dead. This resurrection motif points to the rise of the Flavian Dynasty who together revived the Roman Empire by putting an end to the civil war following Nero’s death. In other words, the Roman Empire under the Flavian Caesars is the beast whose wound had been healed of Revelation 13:3 and the beast that rises out of the Abyss in Revelation 9:2-3, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17.
At the start of the Jewish War, Titus was the commander of the 15th Apollonian Legion before being promoted to general over all the Roman legions in Israel at his father’s coronation. Thus Apollyon is an apt title for the former commander of Legio XV Apollinaris (the 15th Apollonian Legion) who destroyed Jerusalem and its temple. The soldiers of the Apollonian Legion are represented by locusts because locusts are sacred to Apollo. Just prior to the fall of Jerusalem a multitude of auxiliary units from the Euphrates converged on Jerusalem in fulfillment of Revelation 9:14.
The four auxiliary units that reinforced Titus’ army during the siege of Jerusalem were donated by four Roman client kings Antiochus, Agrippa II, Sohemus and Malchus. And just as Titus is Apollyon, the angel of the Abyss of v.11, these four kings are the earthly counterparts of the four angels bound at the Euphrates of v. 14 since Sohemus and Malchus ruled kingdoms on opposite sides of the Euphrates. Thus two out of these four units were drawn directly from the Euphrates.
Verse 16 says that the number of these “mounted troops was two hundred million.” However, this figure was a mistranslated, the Interlinear and Young’s Literal Translation seems to translate the number of these troops in v. 16 as 20,000–the exact number of auxiliary troops that accompanied the Roman forces at the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. In Revelation 9:1-3 a swarm of locusts is released from the Abyss, the dark underworld of the dead. This resurrection motif points to the rise of the Flavian Dynasty who together revived the Roman Empire by putting an end to the civil war following Nero’s death. In other words, the Roman Empire under the Flavian Caesars is the beast whose wound had been healed of Revelation 13:3 and the beast that rises out of the Abyss in Revelation 9:2-3, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17.
Who was Revelation written to. Who was the intended audience? Was it us, 2000 years later? That is not what the passage says:
“What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Of what value would Revelation be to 7 first century churches if all the events would be 2,000+ years away??? Can any of you futurists answer that?
“What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Of what value would Revelation be to 7 first century churches if all the events would be 2,000+ years away??? Can any of you futurists answer that?
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Who were inflecting tribulation (persecution) on the first century church at Thessalonica? Acts 17 has the answer:
5 But the Jews who were not persuaded, becoming envious, took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and gathering a mob, set all the city in an uproar and attacked the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. 6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, “These who have turned the world upside down have come here too. 7 Jason has harbored them, and these are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king—Jesus.”
See how the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders sided with Caesar in an unholy alliance against God's people?
During the holy feasts, these Jewish religious leaders would all return to Jerusalem to celebrate swelling Jerusalem's population to 5X, to over 1.2 million. It would be then, that they would be surrounded and die by sword, famine and flame.
Did the Thessalonians get their rest? Where those tormenting them killed in the fires of Jerusalem? You betcha.
Jesus identifies the city about to be judged. This city was the Mother of all Harlots:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
It was Jerusalem who kills the prophets. It was this city that would see Him again when He comes in wrath and vengeance.
Who were inflecting tribulation (persecution) on the first century church at Thessalonica? Acts 17 has the answer:
5 But the Jews who were not persuaded, becoming envious, took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and gathering a mob, set all the city in an uproar and attacked the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. 6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, “These who have turned the world upside down have come here too. 7 Jason has harbored them, and these are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king—Jesus.”
See how the unbelieving Jewish religious leaders sided with Caesar in an unholy alliance against God's people?
During the holy feasts, these Jewish religious leaders would all return to Jerusalem to celebrate swelling Jerusalem's population to 5X, to over 1.2 million. It would be then, that they would be surrounded and die by sword, famine and flame.
Did the Thessalonians get their rest? Where those tormenting them killed in the fires of Jerusalem? You betcha.
Jesus identifies the city about to be judged. This city was the Mother of all Harlots:
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
It was Jerusalem who kills the prophets. It was this city that would see Him again when He comes in wrath and vengeance.
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furturists and pastists, can you explain if the tree for the healing of all nations is literal or figurative.
Thank you. I am kinda jumping ahead.
pastists, or historicists, if mystery babylon is/was Jerusalem, I dont really see the heavenly kingdom there now. unless Im not looking hard enough.
furtursts, why does everything have to happen all at once 2000 years later. was there some purpose to the delay? If I were God, which im not, I would have got rid of Rome ages ago rather than let it continue to be an abomination. if mystery babylon really is Rome.
Thank you. I am kinda jumping ahead.
pastists, or historicists, if mystery babylon is/was Jerusalem, I dont really see the heavenly kingdom there now. unless Im not looking hard enough.
furtursts, why does everything have to happen all at once 2000 years later. was there some purpose to the delay? If I were God, which im not, I would have got rid of Rome ages ago rather than let it continue to be an abomination. if mystery babylon really is Rome.
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https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-27.htm and since then every nation obeys?
Yes I agree that what you say is written in all the books and that everyone seems to just agree and go with it. The thing is in all of Revelation 9 it only mentions demon once and the woes are directed at getting them to not worship them. Beast is never mentioned in Rev.9 but the same as demon most usually read that into Rev.9 when they speak of it. lol,I read the bible before I knew that their were the accepted camps of eschatology and so I did not have their influence.
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It's not written to one private audience https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+1:20-21&version=KJV so you too https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2:17&version=KJV you just spend all your time trying to place it in a time where it wont effect you.
No disrespect sir, we can discuss the Gospels, Genesis etc. etc. But when you think Revelation happened 2000 years ago and I see it as future, we are just wasting our time discussing it tbh. And by the way, I basically know of no one that thinks that Revelation is past tense, besides a few {very few} on message boards here and there, so it can't be over 1 percent of Christendom, if that, that think that way, and I find these kind of ideas, when very few hold them, to usually be in error. Joseph Smith started the Latter Day Saints by being different from everyone else and he then added to the bible, so I am always a little weary when people are vastly different than the norm on dogma.
God Bless brother....we just disagree on this, but we are still brothers in Christ.
God Bless brother....we just disagree on this, but we are still brothers in Christ.
True, but we can follow Apollyon in the Old Testament, via his name of Abaddon or the Destroyer. We have to read all three of those chapters {Rev. 9, 11 and 17} and put it together to understand it. I never got Rev. 17 was about a different Beast until I understand the one in Rev. 17 has NO CROWNS while the two mentioned in Rev. 12 and Rev. 13 both have CROWNS, but on different things of course. The Rev. 12 Beast shows Crowns on the Head because Satan is over all Kingdoms on earth as he showed Jesus in Luke 4, and the Rev. 13 Beast is over the 10 Kings thus the CROWNS are on the Horns/Kings because they freely give their power unto him and rule for ONE HOUR {42 Months} with him. The Scarlet Beast is a Demon who is in the Abyss, Satan is in Heaven, men don't come back from the dead, it has to be a Demon that was over the Mediterranean Sea Region..........IS NOT NOW, because hes in the pit..........but will again be over the Region when God releases him from the pit. And Apollyon is called the King of that pit, and he is said to be of the SEVEN KINGS, but also an 8th King. So it just makes sense, its Apollyon. At least that is the decision I have come to via much research.
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Most anything that god speaks of is "Literal" even if He uses code words or metaphors. Thee Woman {Sun, moon and stars of Gen. 37:9} in Rev. 12 literally means Israel in code, the Red Dragon means Satan. I assume the Tree of Life is Jesus/God.
Mystery, {COMMA} Babylon the Great are just NAME TAGS on the prostitute to identify her. The Harlot is All False Religion of all time, she is not a place. Babylon via chapter 18 refers to the Whole World, Rev. 16:19 tells us that.
God sent forth His son to die on the cross in order to SAVE Man Kind, so why would God end the world 2000 years ago before the Gospel went forth unto the world ? No message, no salvation's, so God choose to allow the Gentiles to take over the mantle from the Jewish peoples who rejected Christ, God knew if they couldn't see Jesus in the Flesh, they could never teach the world about his message of Salvation, so God saw the Jews as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years until He breathed life back into them just like Ezekiel 37 stated He would do. And God will call Israel unto repentance, as Zechariah 13:8-9 says, 1/3 will repent and 2/3 will perish, that is probably a larger portion that gets saved than the World in General.
Rome was PERFECT for the Gospel to Spread, the had one common language {Greek Koine} and ALL ROADS led to Rome, so Rome was the perfect environment for spreading the Gospel, as odd as that sounds. The Pax Romanus was a perfect vehicle for Jesus. He came and died at the perfect time, of course hes God. Amen.
Mystery, {COMMA} Babylon the Great are just NAME TAGS on the prostitute to identify her. The Harlot is All False Religion of all time, she is not a place. Babylon via chapter 18 refers to the Whole World, Rev. 16:19 tells us that.
God sent forth His son to die on the cross in order to SAVE Man Kind, so why would God end the world 2000 years ago before the Gospel went forth unto the world ? No message, no salvation's, so God choose to allow the Gentiles to take over the mantle from the Jewish peoples who rejected Christ, God knew if they couldn't see Jesus in the Flesh, they could never teach the world about his message of Salvation, so God saw the Jews as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years until He breathed life back into them just like Ezekiel 37 stated He would do. And God will call Israel unto repentance, as Zechariah 13:8-9 says, 1/3 will repent and 2/3 will perish, that is probably a larger portion that gets saved than the World in General.
Rome was PERFECT for the Gospel to Spread, the had one common language {Greek Koine} and ALL ROADS led to Rome, so Rome was the perfect environment for spreading the Gospel, as odd as that sounds. The Pax Romanus was a perfect vehicle for Jesus. He came and died at the perfect time, of course hes God. Amen.
In the Old Testament it is "destruction" in Revelation it is "destroyer"(personified) because of him being referred to as the "angel" of the abyss https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/9-11.htm
2 Thessalonians 2:11 is God's reason for letting Rome continue in its abominations.
2 Thessalonians 2: 9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
God allows Rome to perpetuate just as he allows Satan to perpetuate.
Over the many centuries all new catholic doctrines and dogmas have been authorized and approved by the pope (man of lawlessness). Many people believe these false doctrines and dogmas.
Over the many centuries the pope (man of lawlessness) has approved many false signs and wonders (miracles). Here's one example: "Pope Francis has approved the recognition of a miracle attributed to the intercession of two of the shepherd children who saw Our Lady of Fatima in 1917, thus paving the way for their canonization."
2 Thessalonians 2: 9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
God allows Rome to perpetuate just as he allows Satan to perpetuate.
Over the many centuries all new catholic doctrines and dogmas have been authorized and approved by the pope (man of lawlessness). Many people believe these false doctrines and dogmas.
Over the many centuries the pope (man of lawlessness) has approved many false signs and wonders (miracles). Here's one example: "Pope Francis has approved the recognition of a miracle attributed to the intercession of two of the shepherd children who saw Our Lady of Fatima in 1917, thus paving the way for their canonization."