Not By Works

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Dec 6, 2019
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If we believe OSAS then we have to stand by it... that is my view..... not personal.
I believe I might possibly see diverse people like George Whitefield, John Wesley, RC Sproul, Chuck Smith, and David Wilkerson all lifting hands to Jesus in heaven.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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I believe I might possibly see diverse people like George Whitefield, John Wesley, RC Sproul, Chuck Smith, and David Wilkerson all lifting hands to Jesus in heaven.
But none of the ones listed above taught earning or being worthy of salvation, to be sure
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You are correct, except no one is pre programmed not to believe.
what is this?

And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
(Isaiah 6:9-10)
Jesus declares the fulfillment of this in John 12, saying "therefore they cannot believe" in v.39

not an easy question
! it blows my mind, but it's the truth
 
Dec 6, 2019
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I agree.....salvation is not earned by works.
I'm certainly not here to defend those misguided doctrines.

Salvation is by the faith that continues to the very end.
The works are just the footsteps in the sand of that continuing faith.
Just as Abraham's footsteps were the footsteps of his faith.

No footsteps means no faith.
It either died in that person or was never present to begin with.
“Salvation is by the faith that continues to the end. “Quote

That is why Hebrews 3:6 says that ARE His house if we hold fast our confidence. And 3:1y says we HAVE BEEN made partakers if we hold fast to the end.

The salvation comes before the holding fast, and the holding fast is demonstrative of a person who has already been made a partaker of Christ

Works are the footsteps of faith...Quote

Yes, James said “if a man has faith and has not works, can THAT faith save him? There is a living faith and a dead faith. A living faith is connected to God, and brings spiritual life. A dead faith is a faith that is disconnected from God, ( the devils believe and tremble”) and brings no life.

Saving faith is both living and enduring.

I think we all have common ground here ( I hope)
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
“Salvation is by the faith that continues to the end. “Quote

That is why Hebrews 3:6 says that ARE His house if we hold fast our confidence. And 3:1y says we HAVE BEEN made partakers if we hold fast to the end.

The salvation comes before the holding fast, and the holding fast is demonstrative of a person who has already been made a partaker of Christ

Works are the footsteps of faith...Quote

Yes, James said “if a man has faith and has not works, can THAT faith save him? There is a living faith and a dead faith. A living faith is connected to God, and brings spiritual life. A dead faith is a faith that is disconnected from God, ( the devils believe and tremble”) and brings no life.

Saving faith is both living and enduring.

I think we all have common ground here ( I hope)
A dead faith is an inoperative faith..... a faith that is not being used.

Only something that was once alive can be dead... and since we know OSAS is true ... we need to understand that this "dead, inoperative, faith" is a faith that was not being displayed outwardly.
 
Dec 6, 2019
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what is this?

And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed.”
(Isaiah 6:9-10)
Jesus declares the fulfillment of this in John 12, saying "therefore they cannot believe" in v.39

not an easy question! it blows my mind, but it's the truth
When you hear Gods Word again and again and again and again, and disregard it again and again and again, it has a hardening effect. ( very evident in Capernaum and Bethesda and my own country).

So God knew that isaiahs words would harden the hearers. Because when you hear Gods Word, you are either softened or hardened

Like an illustation I heard. Sunlight melts some things and hardens other things. That is the way the Word of God effects human hearts

Every time a person hears and rejects, a hardening takes place. But God can remove hardness. It takes a miracle
 
Dec 6, 2019
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A dead faith is an inoperative faith..... a faith that is not being used.

Only something that was once alive can be dead... and since we know OSAS is true ... we need to understand that this "dead, inoperative, faith" is a faith that was not being displayed outwardly.
But James said “can such faith( dead faith) save him?” That is a rhetorical question of which the intended answer is no

Dead faith is no different than the devils who believe and tremble
 
Dec 6, 2019
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Ok, that is more accurate of what Calvin taught. Consider Proverbs 16:4
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe God created people to damn them. But even His allowing them to exist, ( He could just erase them if He wanted to), is that even they fulfill part of His purpose.

Like Pharoah. “For this purpose I raised you up...”

God demonstrates both mercy and justice.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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But God can remove hardness. It takes a miracle
IMO that's how everyone who is saved, became saved. we all have free will, and the only thing we do with it is reject Him -- until He, by His own will, according to His own purpose, changes our will, enabling us to see, to hear, to understand, and to believe. and then when we walk in Him, we're no longer walking in our own will - but in His will, as it was predestined for us.

i never called sin 'sin' in my heart before i ran after Him. one day my view radically changed, and i had repentance. i can't see how that was my own doing, without some intervention from heaven fundamentally altering me. i had become
persuaded.

preaching - that's a particular form of communication; it's 'persuasive speech' -- the intent is to change the mind of the person hearing it. so even those people who still think they 'decided' to believe Christ all of their own free will; that's bogus. they heard the gospel and were persuaded by the hearing. that's being influenced; that's being changed. that's the word going out and accomplishing its purpose; it's you or i having been fundamentally affected by what we heard, effecting a change in us bringing about faith. there is no 'uncoerced free will action' in humans but to entertain their own vanities.

((IMO))

i'm not talking 'calvinism' btw. i'm talking about what i know from what i have observed in my own life, and about what i comprehend the scripture to be saying: He enables us to come to Him, and we never would, unless He does so - and all that the Father draws, do come, and none are turned away or ever cast out. it's God doing the work, and it's me, receiving the benefit of His mercy. it's not what i thought when it happened to me; it's what i came to realize when i learned more of Him. when it happened, i thought i was deciding for myself. i thought i was pulling the trigger.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Calvin says they were purposely created for that purpose--to be an unbeliever and to remain one and to never be a believer.
Is there a reason you dismissed my question?

Have you ever been a CC member under a different name?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Calvin says they were purposely created for that purpose--to be an unbeliever and to remain one and to never be a believer.
does he actually say that or is that an implication some people arrive at?
i've never read anything he wrote.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It is about believers getting entangled in wrong ideas.... instruction in the faith, so that they understand the new covenant.
No it’s not, the first chapter gives us the context.

if any man teach any other gospel. Let him be accursed

you who are being justified by law


ots about false teachers and those being decieved by them and a warning to come to true faith.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have a higher view of him, brother. From reading his posts, he seems to genuinely trust and love the Lord. He believes that we are saved by Grace and kept by the power of God through faith. That is enough for me to call him “brother”
He does not believe this

i have heard his false teachings for multiple years now.

he is not my brother
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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So God knew that isaiahs words would harden the hearers. Because when you hear Gods Word, you are either softened or hardened

God says through Isaiah, blind them, them, so that they will not turn, and be healed. Jesus says, therefore they could not believe.
there's a purposeful action here with an intended result, which i found utterly astounding!! it's not just happenstance, like, yeah, some will probably harden, some will probably soften, let's see how it shakes out -- no, He intentionally hardens in order to exclude those under His judgement. God knows what He does, and He does all He intends.