Not By Works

[Judges1318]

Why a change in the law required a change in priesthood

I think you mean 'a change in the priesthood required a change in the law'. Right? (Hebrews 7:12)

Drawing near to God through the new Priesthood of Jesus made the priesthood of the Levites no longer needed, and so all the laws governing that priesthood are no longer needed, too. As you point out, this is all taught in the book of Hebrews.

 

[calibob]

I think you mean 'a change in the priesthood required a change in the law'. Right? (Hebrews 7:12)

Drawing near to God through the new Priesthood of Jesus made the priesthood of the Levites no longer needed, and so all the laws governing that priesthood are no longer needed, too. As you point out, this is all taught in the book of Hebrews.

And the old laws were made obsolete. Hebrews 8:13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Berean Study Bible

 

[VCO]

You believe in irresistable grace? It seems to me that if grace is irresistable, then some are not offered grace, for if everyone was offered grace and it was irresistable, everyone would be saved.

For this reason I do not believe the I in tulip. Unless I misunderstand.

2 Peter 3:9 (HCSB)
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.


We all must CHOOSE to repent or not, whom we will serve.

 

[dcontroversal]

And the old laws were made obsolete. Hebrews 8:13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Berean Study Bible

The Pharisee you are addressing peddles the same drivel Ralph peddled......He must KEEP himself saved and in the FAITH because his JEEZUS cannot do it......just another working for dogma that devalues JESUS, the truth, the power, promises and faith of Christ that has been dealt to us in measure...the same faith JESUS begins, finishes and completes in us....

 

[Ruby123]

No way Ruby......I am not easily offended and I know you were having fun

Oh good so I can keep at it then. Only joking!!

 

[dcontroversal]

Oh good so I can keep at it then. Only joking!!

You bet Ruby....I am a glutton for punishment....fire away AHHAHA

 

[Judges1318]

Some only APPEAR to be Christians They are in a church, even as ministers sometimes, but never converted.

I knew a pastor who was a pastor for many years before he was converted. He had to stand up and tell his flock he had just gotten saved.

If a person is a professing Christian, but not born from above, they may go out from us

There is being birthed by water, and there is also being birthed from above. Both are necessary to see the kingdom of God.

I'm largely convinced that most Christians in churches today only have the water part of 'water and Spirit'.
They know John's baptism for repentance, but they have not come to the end of themselves in the futile attempt to repent, and have not been born of the Spirit, yet. That doesn't mean they aren't in God's favor in some way. It means they have yet to move into the life of the spiritual rebirth.

Galatians 4:23 NAS
"the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh (in the natural way of repentance alone and trying to obey the commandments) , and the son by the free woman through the promise (in the supernatural way of transformation through faith in Christ)."

Repentance for the forgiveness of sins, John's baptism, births a natural man. But that man, if left in that state, does not inherit the kingdom. But faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin births the spiritual man. Only the one born of, both, water and Spirit will see and enter into the kingdom.

And like I say, I think we have a church full of water only births. And I think that's because we push too many people too quickly to get saved. As a result we have a lot of Christians that still live pretty much unchanged in their old lives. Because repentance alone can not change the inward man. Only the additional spiritual birth can do that. And that happens when you come to the end of yourself after trying hard to repent of your sins and not being able to and realizing the only way you're going to get from here to there is by having your sins removed through the forgiveness of those sins. It is in this way that John's baptism of repentance prepares the way for the baptism of the Spirit, through Jesus.

"while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. " - Acts 19:1-5 KJV

Water first, then the Spirit.
These disciples had been born of the waters of repentance (John's baptism) but they had not been born of the Spirit by faith in Christ (Jesus' baptism), yet.

 

[calibob]

The Pharisee you are addressing peddles the same drivel Ralph peddled......He must KEEP himself saved and in the FAITH because his JEEZUS cannot do it......just another working for dogma that devalues JESUS, the truth, the power, promises and faith of Christ that has been dealt to us in measure...the same faith JESUS begins, finishes and completes in us....

I don't recall a Ralph but I will not waver. I don't need to become a Jew or Judaizer to be saved. Jews need to believe in the Christ which was sacrificed for their sins too.

 

[Judges1318]

And the old laws were made obsolete. Hebrews 8:13By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Berean Study Bible

And my understanding is 'obsolete' means 'unneeded now'.
Meaning the old covenant laws of days, and seasons, and years was not cast down and trampled on and violated and broken by the new Covenant way of faith in Christ, but rather the old way was put aside as unneeded now because we draw near to God in the better and perfect way of Jesus' Sacrifice and Ministry and time of His appearing.

We simply do not need the old system of drawing near to God anymore now that the new way of faith in Christ does that perfectly and forever. As an analogy, it's like no longer having to drive the '54 Buick to work anymore now that you've already arrived there in a new Lamborghini. There's no reason to drive the old car anymore. It's use has been made obsolete by the new.

 

[Judges1318]

Jews need to believe in the Christ which was sacrificed for their sins too.

That is right.
And even they don't have to keep the old law of days, and seasons, and years.

 

[calibob]

And my understanding is 'obsolete' means 'unneeded now'.
Meaning the old covenant laws of days, and seasons, and years was not cast down and trampled on and violated and broken by the new Covenant way of faith in Christ, but rather the old way was put aside as unneeded now because we draw near to God in the better and perfect way of Jesus' Sacrifice and Ministry and time of His appearing.

We simply do not need the old system of drawing near to God anymore now that the new way of faith in Christ does that perfectly and forever. As an analogy, it's like no longer having to drive the '54 Buick to work anymore now that you've already arrived there in a new Lamborghini. There's no reason to drive the old car anymore. It's use has been made obsolete by the new.

Jesus' Sacrifice and Ministry and time of His appearing. ??? More like from the time of Calvary until eternity. BTW; I'd rather take the Buick than a Lambo but I'd rather have a Porsche than any sports car for personal use.

 

[Discern]

Oh I believe in Irresistible Grace, if it had not been for that, my depression was so BAD that I would have tried a Fourth Time at Suicide and would have succeeded. But Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election, I have a problem accepting.

It was pretty much irresistable for me too. But I struggle because if it’s always irresistable, that would mean that there was not an actual extension of grace those who resist. And I think Gods grace is unto all, but only upon all that believe

 

[EleventhHour]

No mention in Acts that Ananais and Sephora were saved. Look and see.

Okay here we go....

Historical context... the persecution of the Jews who converted.... one must take seriously of this early resistance movement to all other forms of Judaism.

We are told in Acts 4:32-34 that the believers who had lands or houses sold them.

The early group of believers now had targets on their backs and had to group together in survival mode and bring together their resources.
Ananias and Sapphira would not have joined this rebel resistance group if they were not believers.

However, Satan put doubts and fear in their hearts so they kept some money aside for plan B, just in case the trouble became too much to bear. But they had already said they were committed to pooling all their resources (Acts 4:32).

They were taken out so a little leaven wouldn't spoil the whole lump with the severe persecution to follow by the hands of the Apostle Paul and others until Acts 9.

 

[Discern]

Amen.
This is of faith, and if genuine when we pray we believe He hears, when we read the inspired written word we know it's True and when we walk in the spirit, it would mean our spirit is already quickened. (made alive)
Though many believe they have been made new and are in Christ, He never knew them.


_________

I typed this out awhile ago but I believe the verse you bring up has more to do with the goat among sheep or wheat among tares.... the braches that bare fruit and those completely void of fruit....

I believe the timing of this lesson and Judas is important.

___________

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


Two sorts of branches


branches that bare fruit

"every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit"
"He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit"


and branches that do not bare fruit

"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned"
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself"



______

I believe in me, would be those in the church, the body of Christ....

Some of which are not actually born again but have many supposed wonderful works to try to point to....

I believe these verses have absolutely nothing to do with a born again child of God, being thrown into fire...

John Baptist talked about those not bearing fruit being cast into the fire,because they did not bring forth fruit meet for repentance. I think perhaps that was referring to mere outward show without inward reality. Going through the motions, but no actual change of heart.

 

[Discern]

Okay here we go....

Historical context... the persecution of the Jews who converted.... one must take seriously of this early resistance movement to all other forms of Judaism.

We are told in Acts 4:32-34 that the believers who had lands or houses sold them.

The early group of believers now had targets on their backs and had to group together in survival mode and bring together their resources.
Ananias and Sapphira would not have joined this rebel resistance group if they were not believers.

However, Satan put doubts and fear in their hearts so they kept some money aside for plan B, just in case the trouble became too much to bear. But they had already said they were committed to pooling all their resources (Acts 4:32).

They were taken out so a little leaven wouldn't spoil the whole lump with the severe persecution to follow by the hands of the Apostle Paul and others until Acts 9.

Ok, I will accept that as apossible interpretation. But it is extrapolation, not actually based on a clear statement of scripture that they were believers.

Thank you for that perspective. I will contemplate on that a bit

 

[Discern]

Oh I believe in Irresistible Grace, if it had not been for that, my depression was so BAD that I would have tried a Fourth Time at Suicide and would have succeeded. But Limited Atonement and Unconditional Election, I have a problem accepting.

Praise God that he plucked you out of the fire of despair and depression

 

[Discern]

There is being birthed by water, and there is also being birthed from above. Both are necessary to see the kingdom of God.

I'm largely convinced that most Christians in churches today only have the water part of 'water and Spirit'.
They know John's baptism for repentance, but they have not come to the end of themselves in the futile attempt to repent, and have not been born of the Spirit, yet. That doesn't mean they aren't in God's favor in some way. It means they have yet to move into the life of the spiritual rebirth.

Galatians 4:23 NAS
"the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh (in the natural way of repentance alone and trying to obey the commandments) , and the son by the free woman through the promise (in the supernatural way of transformation through faith in Christ)."

Repentance for the forgiveness of sins, John's baptism, births a natural man. But that man, if left in that state, does not inherit the kingdom. But faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin births the spiritual man. Only the one born of, both, water and Spirit will see and enter into the kingdom.

And like I say, I think we have a church full of water only births. And I think that's because we push too many people too quickly to get saved. As a result we have a lot of Christians that still live pretty much unchanged in their old lives. Because repentance alone can not change the inward man. Only the additional spiritual birth can do that. And that happens when you come to the end of yourself after trying hard to repent of your sins and not being able to and realizing the only way you're going to get from here to there is by having your sins removed through the forgiveness of those sins. It is in this way that John's baptism of repentance prepares the way for the baptism of the Spirit, through Jesus.

"while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. " - Acts 19:1-5 KJV

Water first, then the Spirit.
These disciples had been born of the waters of repentance (John's baptism) but they had not been born of the Spirit by faith in Christ (Jesus' baptism), yet.

I have a different view of baptism than you, but I agree with you on the absolute necessity of the New Birth.

 

[Judges1318]

I have a different view of baptism than you, but I agree with you on the absolute necessity of the New Birth.

I hope you do not think I'm suggesting water baptism is a legalistic part of getting saved.

John's baptism was for repentance.
The focus of water baptism is to be on the repentance, not the water as a legalistic procedure as some churches view it.

Repentance is not enough to see the kingdom of God. That only births a natural man into the nation of God , not a spiritual man. You must also be born of the Spirit from above. You must be "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5 NAS).

The Jews had the 'water' part down pat. They were all about repentance unto the commands of God in the law, because that's what they were taught and knew about. What they lacked was the 'Spirit' part, without which they could not see and enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[calibob]

Circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the difference.

 

[mailmandan]

This link is very helpful to Catholics who are wondering why we Christians are not part of the Catholic Church. It explains why Catholicism is not Christianity, and why it is a deception if it is being presented as Christianity. Hope this helps and blesses someone 🙂

Thank you for the link. This part of the article summed it right up - "The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of proclaiming the gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church “Christianized” the pagan religions and “paganized” Christianity."