Baptism a condition for salvation?

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oldethennew

Banned
#21
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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113
#21
it would seem that here is a great separation among so many that truly Love their Holy Saviour -
for myself and my wife, we have chosen to follow John who was the one chosen by God to Baptize our Holy Saviour -
for us, it is a Holy Pattern which we have been convicted to follow - obviously for others, it is not...
this is yet just another 'choice' in everyone's journey...
 
D

DB7

Junior Member
#22
Dec 29, 2014
283
138
43
#22
...after realizing that the OP's question may have been addressing specifically the significance of Jesus' remark '..born of water...', I'd like to offer an explanation for that.
I don't believe that water in this context was referring the mother's womb, for it would be slightly redundant to make reference to one's initial birth, as it goes without saying that this is required in order to be eligible for salvation. And secondly, I don't believe that he would reference this process in such a cryptic and esoteric manner. He would more likely have said something to the effect of 'born of woman', or 'born of flesh' (at least I believe so).
But rather, Jesus is saying that the new or second birth consists of water and spirit. That is, cleansing as in repentance, and then receiving the proof and empowerment of your conversion, which is the Holy Spirit.
And just to reiterate my previous post, water baptism is strictly symbolic, it offers nothing towards edification or salvation, nor can it, as such a superficial gesture cannot justify the intent of the heart. But, it is meant to testify to others of your desire to accept Christ.
 
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Robo36

Active member
#23
Nov 27, 2019
186
58
28
#23
Nehemiah6 said:
The Gospel was not meant to be confusing. Just one Bible passage (Ephesians 2:8,9) should be sufficient to show you that baptism is NOT necessary for salvation.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does this mean that baptism should not follow immediately upon conversion? Absolutely not. You can go right through the Acts of the Apostles and discover that as soon as anyone was saved he or she was baptized by immersion. Because that is Christ's COMMANDMENT. If you are a believer and you have not been baptized, you should do so as soon as possible.

At the same time you should be aware that there are MANY CHURCHES AND DENOMINATIONS falsely teaching their adherents that baptism is necessary for salvation. You should simply disregard them.
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I thank you for that response.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#24
#24
DB7 said:
...after realizing that the OP's question may have been addressing specifically the significance of Jesus' remark '..born of water...', I'd like to offer an explanation for that.
I don't believe that water in this context was referring the mother's womb, for it would be slightly redundant to make reference to one's initial birth, as it goes without saying that this is required in order to be eligible for salvation. And secondly, I don't believe that he would reference this process in such a cryptic and esoteric manner. He would more likely have said something to the effect of 'born of woman', or 'born of flesh' (at least I believe so).
But rather, Jesus is saying that the new or second birth consists of water and spirit. That is, cleansing as in repentance, and then receiving the proof and empowerment of your conversion, which is the Holy Spirit.
And just to reiterate my previous post, water baptism is strictly symbolic, it offers nothing towards edification or salvation, nor can it, as such a superficial gesture cannot justify the intent of the heart. But, it is meant to testify to others of your desire to accept Christ.
Click to expand...
i think people think water is womb because of what Jesus said after

that which is born of flesh (water) is flesh, that which is born of spirit (spirit) is spirit

be born again

it takes two births

water (flesh) is one

then born again in spirit is second birth

once again as I said earlier, if was was baptism jesus would have said god gave his son that whoever believes and is baptised,

he never said that, because water does not mean baptism

and I agree with your baptism is not required. Amen
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#25
#25
oldethennew said:
it would seem that here is a great separation among so many that truly Love their Holy Saviour -
for myself and my wife, we have chosen to follow John who was the one chosen by God to Baptize our Holy Saviour -
for us, it is a Holy Pattern which we have been convicted to follow - obviously for others, it is not...
this is yet just another 'choice' in everyone's journey...
Click to expand...
What we have is two gospels

the Separation sadly is eternal

ALL people believe baptism is a command, there is no separation there

the separation is what people think must be done to be saved

for one groups. faith in Christ work

for the other faith in our work (namely baptism)

its a serious issue.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#26
#26
Just a thought; it could be that while baptism isn't a prerequisite to being saved, in other words God can save outside of baptism, however God uses baptism to save. So that being baptized you are saved, but that there are some who are saved even though they have yet to be or baptized, or perhaps baptism is not available to them because of circumstances of one type or another. Because it's not the act of being baptized, but the faith that causes one to be baptized that actually saves.
 
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oldethennew

Banned
#27
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#27
for us, it is quite simple, we just want to 'follow in our Saviour's Light/steps/walk' - and read/understand/be guided,
by The Holy Scriptures!!! = and be given wisdom and understanding by The Holy Spirit of what this means and is
required of us in our daily walk -
nothing in this present world means anything to us, hub and myself, for we are certain that The Holy Spirit
is our guiding Light/Force for all that we are required to do, think-say-live or to die for, etc...

hub and I so Love this Scripture,
'Great Peace have they that Love Thy Law,
and 'Nothing' shall 'offend' them'...

as Christians, we know that we are daily challenged by the 'dark-powers' in some way or another,
and we must learn how to not take 'offence', for we are assured that if we are in obedience to His Commands,
that we are covered/protected from the dark powers that are constantly tempting us to betray our Holy Saviour...
 
Flint321

Flint321

Banned
#28
Apr 12, 2019
243
105
43
#28
The Lord Jesus said that you must be born again! The point is that for someone to enter God's Kingdom they have to be born of God, God alone Saves (not man) or they will remain in there sin, rebellion and unbelief, the ones who believe the gospel are the ones that God Alone Regenerates, indeed they are the elect.

Salvation then becomes the work of God Alone 100% and 0% Man, the glory goes to God alone, because it all belongs to God alone, there is no glory for wicked man.

Some will protest at this comment, with quoting John 3:16 but that's because there twisting God's word and need to go read the whole of John 3.
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#29
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#29
Wow Flint,
quite an awesome post of understanding!
and so we know, after 'conversion', we are no longer considered 'wicked' in God's eyes',
we have become His chosen and beloved, being taught by The Holy Spirit how to give up
our 'old-man's ways, day-by-day, -
and only desiring to continue, deny/change our old worldly/wicked ways, -
and begin our 'new-journey, learning how to walk' in His Holy Light/steps/ways of Holy Obedience...
 
G

garee

Banned
#30
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#30
Flint321 said:
The Lord Jesus said that you must be born again! The point is that for someone to enter God's Kingdom they have to be born of God, God alone Saves (not man) or they will remain in there sin, rebellion and unbelief, the ones who believe the gospel are the ones that God Alone Regenerates, indeed they are the elect.

Salvation then becomes the work of God Alone 100% and 0% Man, the glory goes to God alone, because it all belongs to God alone, there is no glory for wicked man.

Some will protest at this comment, with quoting John 3:16 but that's because there twisting God's word and need to go read the whole of John 3.
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I would agree. Going forward two verses reveals the judgment has already been determined . Christian will not be judged twice. As if we were appointed to die more than once. No condemnation. The Son of man, Jesus sat in the judgment seat of Christ . He took upon his self our whole sin

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18
 
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Guojing

Banned
#31
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#31
Robo36 said:
Baptism a condition for salvation?

Throughout the New Testament we’re promised that believing in Christ is the condition for being saved to salvation. Yet John 3-5, Jesus tells us “Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.”

Are we therefore told by the Christ that there are more conditions to achieve eternal life than simply believing in him? Is there salvation without baptism?

What do you believe, and why?
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The Jews needed to be water baptized in the 4 Gospels and early Acts because the Kingdom was "at hand".

Once the Jewish nation accept their Messiah, they will all be priests spreading the good news to all the Gentile nations. (Zechariah 8:20-23)

Thus water baptism was the step involved to enter that priesthood.
 
G

garee

Banned
#32
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#32
Locoponydirtman said:
Just a thought; it could be that while baptism isn't a prerequisite to being saved, in other words God can save outside of baptism, however God uses baptism to save. So that being baptized you are saved, but that there are some who are saved even though they have yet to be or baptized, or perhaps baptism is not available to them because of circumstances of one type or another. Because it's not the act of being baptized, but the faith that causes one to be baptized that actually saves.
Click to expand...
I would agree no mention of H20.

We are saved as a unseen work. . . by the water and the word as the doctrines of God that fall like rain inspired from heaven coming down to mankind . Falling like dew on the ground. Again as the water and the word. Deuteronomy 34. The same kind of water (spirit) husbands are to wash their wives, as Christ washes his bride the church.

Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

We can see that in many parables .Like that when God brought the hidden manna . Manna a word that literally means. . . What is it . to show God is not a man as us . We can seek no familiarity after him . it can breed hatred and contempt and even murder as with Jesus' own family

Numbers 11:9 And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna (what is it?) fell upon it.

The Spirit of God bringing the word of God.

H20 baptism another kind of doctrine.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#33
#33
oldethennew said:
for us, it is quite simple, we just want to 'follow in our Saviour's Light/steps/walk' - and read/understand/be guided,
by The Holy Scriptures!!! = and be given wisdom and understanding by The Holy Spirit of what this means and is
required of us in our daily walk -
nothing in this present world means anything to us, hub and myself, for we are certain that The Holy Spirit
is our guiding Light/Force for all that we are required to do, think-say-live or to die for, etc...

hub and I so Love this Scripture,
'Great Peace have they that Love Thy Law,
and 'Nothing' shall 'offend' them'...

as Christians, we know that we are daily challenged by the 'dark-powers' in some way or another,
and we must learn how to not take 'offence', for we are assured that if we are in obedience to His Commands,
that we are covered/protected from the dark powers that are constantly tempting us to betray our Holy Saviour...
Click to expand...
Jesus himself said we are protected when we love him and others more than ourselves. We obey we we follow this law of love

it is not obedience which protects. It is our attitude, our frame of mind, our motivation.

it not only protects us from sin, as it keeps us from sin, it as Paul said, gives us the attitude that troubles of life which are every day can be a momentary light affliction, because we are focused on people, not self, because god has taken care of our every need, including our eternal need, By giving us eternal life, and the seal of the spirit which guarantees our eternity,

people want to take that away from us, by saying our eternity is not secure and demand obedience, when that is OT the true path to obedience and righteousness in any way,
 
G

garee

Banned
#34
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#34
wattie said:
John 3:5.. the context is about the water at birth.. of the womb.
Click to expand...
The water of the word. The Holy Spirit bringing his word that works in us.

It is about the doctrines of God that fall from above in respect to the right loosening from heaven. . binding on earth authority or law of faith. Same water of the word husbands wash their wives with .

Deuteronomy 32:1-3 King James Version (KJV) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

The witness of God (unseen) is greater than the witness of men (H20) One evaporates the other gives us ears .

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
 
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