I understand the scriptures to teach that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was for the sins of those that God gave him, but that it was a sacrificial offering to God, for God's acceptance, and not to man for man's acceptance. Do you see that differently? I am not sure I understand what you mean by "When God brings man to the cross man makes the decision if he wants to accept the atonement" I don't see scriptures pointing that out. Can you enlighten me? Until we have been born again, we all were by nature the children of wrath, Eph 2:3. Was Abraham, Noah and all of the old testament prophets children of wrath? Does not the imputed righteousness of Christ come with the new birth instead of on the cross, Eph 2:5, hath quickened us together with Christ? I know that we were justified by Christ on the cross, Gal 2:16.
Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?
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John 3:14 says, Yeshua said, just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up (John 3:14).
John 6:44... Yeshua said, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32... Yeshua said , if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. If you read the following verse we know it is referring to his death.
The above insinuates that God draws man to Christ, and the Gospel is the preaching of the cross. Why would God take one to the cross? Correct, to show that Yeshua died for them and if they accept the atonement of Yeshua they will be made the righteousness of God through Yeshua who did resurrect from the dead. Yes, the death of Yeshua was sufficient to God because it is through Yeshua that one is made God's righteousness. Have you ever presented the Gospel of Salvation to anyone and did they refuse? If they did, it goes to show that God brings to the cross, just like when Yeshua die many came to the cross, it is a matter of accepting the atonement.
In John 12:32, the key words is "ALL MEN", now will all men be saved? If no, it goes to show that man chooses who he wants to serve. II Kings 17, God tells Israel all what he has done for them and they deliberately did that which was evil in the sight of God, provoking him to anger. They decide to follow other gods. As I previously stated in a form of a question... can one betray his faith, if yes, does that mean that God first chose the person then spit him out of his mouth to damnation? Ruminate on this question.
I am not here to convince you, but to tell you that the Scriptures substantiates the word of God, what God made care when he first spoke.
Hope I was clear in the above.
I also want to add Romans 1:16 where the Apostle Paul states... For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek. To everyone that believe, insinuates that some will not believe and some will believe, does this sound like one decides if he wants to serve or not? Yes, it is clear that one decided if they want to believe and accept the atonement that Yeshua did on the cross.
We are all born into this world as natural men deluded by the sin of Adam. 1 Cor 2:14 explains the capabilities of the natural man, before he is born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He cannot discern the things of the Spirit and thinks them to be foolishness, therefore, the natural man will not look to the incident of Christ's death on the cross and be able to understand what his spiritual purpose was by his death on the cross. Eph 2 explains that at the time of being regenerated the natural man was still dead spiritually in his sins and could not respond favorably in "choosing who he wants to serve" by being born again of the Spirit. After the natural man is born again, then he has the ability and discernment to be drawn to Christ.
Salvation, according to Greek interpretation means = "a deliverance". Once you have been born again of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you then have the ability, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, to discern, believe, the things of the Spirit. Being newly born of the Spirit, you are a babe in Christ growing gradually in faith, which is a fruit of the Spirit, and in the knowledge of the gospel as you nourish on the milk of the word until you are finally able to digest the meat of the word, Isaiah 28:9-10. There is a deliverance when you believe the gospel, (the doctrine of Jesus), but it is not an eternal deliverance, but a deliverance from the lack of knowledge of the gospel, as you live here in this world.
1. John 12:32 says Jesus taught that his crucifixion would draw "all men" to himself.
2. Previous verses in John 12 (context) record Greeks coming to see Jesus, and presumably they are denied access to speak to him.
3. John 6:44 states that no man can come to the Father unless he is drawn, and all of them will be raised up on the last day ( the resurrection of the just).
4. Universalism is not true because some will suffer eternal punishment.
5. It is reasonable to infer that the phrase "all men" in John 12:32 is referring to "all men" in a different manner than the unlimited
atonement guys read it.
6. Since we know that Jews drew a distinction between Jew and Gentile, claiming that Gentiles were unsaveable, it is reasonable to
infer that John 12:32 is referring to "all men" in the sense of both Jew and Gentile, not every single member of both classes.
7. This position is substantiated by the context mentioned in point #2, as well as Ephesians 2, which describes the state of Gentiles
prior to the crucifixion as being "alienated".
Similar reasoning can be employed in other verses related to the claims of those who believe in a universal opportunity for salvation.
If someone doesn't hold the limited atonement view, they have a very hard time reconciling the clear statements in the NT. Additionally, they must believe in a god who cannot accomplish his purposes, and that is different than the God I worship.
If you read The Acts to the Apostles 17:19 - 14, you will see an example of how when the word of God is preached the Holy Spirit convicts to bring them to Yeshua. John 16:8, Yeshua said, when he (the Holy Spirit) is com, he will reprove the world of sin, the following verse says, of sin, because they believe not on me, again this insinuates that one has a choice to believe. The Scriptures tell us, IF we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. "IF" insinuates that the person decides if they want their sins forgiven, but it is the preaching of the Gospel of Salvation that brings them to the cross and it is the Spirit of God that convicts of sins.
From reading your post it appears that you are set in a distorted view that you think is true, you are not willing to look at other passages of the Scriptures, but will only quote verses that you think supports your view, which is a distorted view. Let me also mention, the Scriptures substantiates itself, and I am showing you through the Scriptures with passages about the truth of God's word what God made clear when he first spoke, which allows me to throw fair questions which you avoid answering. I am wasting my time with you because you are here just to dispute a topic that you are set on, you have no interest in what the Scripture truly says and you know that you will not accept what others say, you are here to try to impress that all. I am wasting my time with you so count this my last response to you on this topic.
When a person put all his emphasis on a subject, without responding accordingly it tells me a lot of that person. Nice talking, but I am wasting my time responding to someone who really do not want to weigh Scripture fairly. Respectfully.
You do not see the Scriptures pointing that out or insinuating what I stated because you just want to believe a distorted view and not willing to allow the Scriptures to enlighten your mind with the truth of God's word what God made clear when he first spoke. I am starting to see that you are here just to debate and not to fairly weigh a discussion. I won't repeat what I wrote forrestgreencook, go to his post and it will answer your questions and I gave scriptures.
In order for one to be born-again he has to first believes. John 1:12 says, for as many as believed to them gave them the power to become sons of God. One does not become a son first, he must receive and believe. Just like I told Forrestgreencook, I will tell you, I am wasting my time responding to you, you are just set with your distorted view, you have no intentions of weighing a discussion fairly, neither take the word of God as a hold and you know that you why you are here on this topic, you are stuck with theology. Are you indulging yourself in theology or in have a personal relationship with God in Yeshua. Don't answer me, you will have to be honest to yourself and the God of Abraham. It was nice talking to you, I will not respond to anything you post, I am wasting my time with you. Respectfully.
You seem to me as a person that would consider all of the scriptures to harmonize in order to reveal the whole truth. I have never had anyone to explain to me how the natural man, before he is regenerated, has the discernment of the things of the Spirit enough to repent of a spiritual law of a spiritual God in which he can not understand that he is breaking a spiritual law. According to Eph 2, the natural man, as he is being regenerated, is yet dead spiritually and cannot repent. Can you weigh this scripture fairly and give me your explanation of 1 Cor 2:14?
Your doctrine must be a false one, if you are afraid to defend it with a fair discussion of the scriptures. I do understand that some of the scriptures that I have presented to you are very hard for you to harmonize them with your understanding of the scriptures. Your creed minimizes God's sovereign grace and promotes man's ability to save himself by choosing to let God save him because of his own good works. It makes me sad to think how many weak babes in Christ you are misguiding into believing a false doctrine, if indeed, you are selling any of your books.
Afraid of defending the Scriptures? I need not to defend the Scriptures, the Scriptures substantiates itself and points out distorted doctrine like the one you are trying to impress into others. I have asked you questions and just like the others you cannot respond accordingly, all you do is go around them to avoid answering them. You have not presented anything, but a distorted view when it comes to salvation and the commandments of God, you just shoot questions on verses that you pull out of context just like the others..
Making a decision to serve is not work, God offers salvation and one chooses if he wants it, nothing to do with work. With your view your God is not the God of Abraham, your God is one who chooses and if the person betrays the faith in your, he did not betrayed the faith, but God spit him out to damnation, is that the God you serve? It is amazing when one cannot face the truth they refrain from responding to questions and immediately make dumb statements like the one you ended with in your last paragraph.
As stated, I need not to defend the word of God, the Scriptures defense itself, I am just telling you what the Scriptures says. As for you, you are not defending the Scriptures, you are defending your distorted view. By the way, though it may sound harsh, I say it respectfully, but have no problem being direct.
One more then, you write and rarely do you give Scriptures, tell you why, because you appear to enjoy indulging in theology and that's about it.
I truly believe that I have answered your questions with scripture back up and I believe that is the correct way to answer a biblical question because scripture proves scripture and is the only and complete source we need, with the revelation of the Holy Spirit, to glean the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught. I believe that the scriptures teach that God has all power, knows the end from the beginning and is everywhere present at all times. I love discussing scripture and my come across harshly at times which I am sorry of because it is not my intent to make people angry. Dan 4:35, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
by His knowledge shall My Righteous Servant justify many;
for He shall bear their iniquities.
(Isaiah 53:11)
many. for He shall bear their iniquities.
(Isaiah 53:11)
not 'all'
by His knowledge.
not 'by our clever choices' or 'by our admirable willpower'
not by might, not by power, not by the will or effort of man.
He was numbered with the transgressors;
and He bare the sin of many
(Isaiah 53:12)
many. and He bare the sin of many
(Isaiah 53:12)
not 'all'
which ones are these 'many' then?
for the transgression of My people was He stricken.
(Isaiah 53:8)
(Isaiah 53:8)
His own.
He loses none that the Father has given to Him.
these belong to the Father, to give. the Father obviously precedes them, and they being given to Christ supersedes our imagination of 'giving ourselves' to Him: for 'you are not your own' any more than you formed yourself from dust and gave yourself breath.
that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man
(Hebrews 2:9)
(Hebrews 2:9)
He tasted death for every man. He bears the sins of all who would receive Him.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins.
(John 8:24)
if He bore all sins and cast all sin into the depths of the sea, removing them from every human as far as east is from west, how is it that those who won't receive Him, even though He tasted death for them all, will die in their sins ? how do i die in my sins if they are withdrawn infinitely far from me?
I do not hold any animosity towards anyone, neither disrespect anyone when discussing the Scriptures, because I am direct at times it can come out harshly, which is why I sign respectfully. As for you answering me, you did not response to any or most of my question when I ask, you deliberately avoided them. Example, twice or three times I quoted Luke 24:44 with a short paragraph with a question and and you never responded, exactly what unitedwithchrist does, and as for him him appears to be on this site to show that he is sought of knowledgeable, but that does not impress me, not to mention he does not respond accordingly. By the way, a discussion does not bother me as long as it is a respected discussion, but just as I respond accordingly I expect the same, otherwise, I am wasting my time as I told unitedwithchrist and stopped responding to him.
I understand your last paragraph, but before I answer you, my question to you, did Yeshua die for all, or just a few?
He tasted death for all.
He bore the sins of many.
He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, but the whole world will not be absolved.
with one sacrifice He perfected forever all those who are being made holy, but not all are made holy.
i.e. i've either got universalism or i've got atonement that is at least functionally 'limited' in application.
FGC believes that the true Gospel is a Gospel of works, and that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is a work. That's because of his own warped theology, which he refuses to abandon.
I am not sure what feedback you are looking for from Luke 24:44, but in that verse the Risen Lord was telling the apostles (A) that the entire Old Testament testifies of Him and (B) that the Hebrew Tanakh consists of (1) The Law of Moses, (2) The Prophets, and (3) the Psalms. Those are the three major divisions of the Hebrew Bible, which consists of only 24 books.
I looked back through your posts that were directed to me and I must be overlooking where you ask me a question about Luke 24:44. I did find in one of your posts to unitedwithchrist the question that you ask him. I want to insert here that I do not agree with a lot of unitedwithchrist's beliefs. My answer to your question is; Yes, I believe he elects to heaven and No I do not believe he condemns to hell. I believe the scriptures teach that God allows mankind a free choice to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth and by man's choice he condemns himself to hell, however, I do not believe the scriptures teach that there are requirements that man has to do in order to be eternally saved and that the scriptures teach that eternal salvation is by God's sovereign grace without the help of man. If I have not attempted to answer other questions you have ask me, please let me know.