Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

[SUNDOWNSAM]

True, no one seeks God, not one, but we know that men prior to the birth of Yeshua also walked with God, doing that which was right in the site of God and in God's foreknowledge he knows who to use do to a work.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Man you must have an unlimited supply of straw. You continue to pose absurd conclusions that are a product of your overactive imagination. You set up false narratives of free will verses hyper Calvinism that you allow only to be seen from a totally biased viewpoint.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Your hyper Calvinist view of so called radical depravity has no basis in scripture in view of John 1:9

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What is your interpretation of Isaiah 64:6? Also Psalms 53:2-3? Also Romans 3:10-18?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

True, no one seeks God, not one, but we know that men prior to the birth of Yeshua also walked with God, doing that which was right in the site of God and in God's foreknowledge he knows who to use do to a work.

Men of the old testament were regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the same way that the new testament people are. Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought then up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

heretic and heresy is accusation commonly flung by Calvinists

I think Calvinism is a trap that ensnares people and you are right about how the devil works this trap

I say the above fully aware some might think I am simply trying to throw stones as stones have been thrown at me, but I don't say these things lightly

not one has answered my repeated question of how they deal with saying God condemns some people to hell...in fact creates them for that purpose according to Calvinists...when scripture states God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels

You do understand that God has given mankind a free will to chose how they want to live their lives while here on earth. Mankind has condemned their own selves to hell by their free will. God did not condemn them to hell. The only way that God limits their free will is that their eternal salvation is by God's sovereign grace without man's choice.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

When Christians take Scripture for what it says (rather than what they would like it to say) everything becomes crystal clear. It is only those who obey the Gospel who are ELECTED AND PREDESTINED to be perfected and glorified -- "conformed to the image of His Son".

For whom he did foreknow,
he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

And who are they that obey the gospel? It is those that have been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and can discern the things of the gospel. The natural man, void of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, cannot discern the spiritual things of the gospel and thinks the gospel is foolishness. God saw by his foreknowledge that no one would seek him, no, not one, Psalms 53:2-3.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You asked a question and you follow with a book and remember that knowledge does not impress God. One needs to speak what God made clear when he first spoke, in other words, one should not speak what one thinks the word of God is saying, God was clear when he spoke. So answer yes or no to your answer, do you believe that God elects to heaven and condemns to hell, or man chooses his destiny why here on earth. I need no explanation, just answer the question you ask with a yes or no.

interprets to support their distorted view of the Scriptures.

Sorry, I don't play by other peoples' rules, and I assume a knowledge of Scripture to understand where I'm coming from.

If you are uncomfortable with typological reasoning, you will not be able to understand Scripture correctly. Despite the claims of some dispensationalists, if a person isn't able to reason typologically, they will never understand the Bible correctly.

I have already outlined my general understanding of Scripture, which few evangelical Christians would disagree with, if they understood Scripture.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You asked a question and you follow with a book and remember that knowledge does not impress God. One needs to speak what God made clear when he first spoke, in other words, one should not speak what one thinks the word of God is saying, God was clear when he spoke. So answer yes or no to your answer, do you believe that God elects to heaven and condemns to hell, or man chooses his destiny why here on earth. I need no explanation, just answer the question you ask with a yes or no.

interprets to support their distorted view of the Scriptures.

By the way, I have quoted Scripture copiously on various threads I have created.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

OVERVIEW

This lesson expands upon the smaller pamphlet called The Story I give to new individuals.

The Story explains the storyline of Scripture at a high level. This high-level view of the Bible is called the Big Picture of Scripture.

The Big Picture is similar to the view a helicopter pilot has, versus a man on the ground. The focus is on the overview of the Bible, and not on the individual events. Some of the questions answered are, who is God? Who is man? What happened to cause the chaos we see in the world today? And, is there hope for humanity?

This view presents the storyline of the Bible in four different elements: Creation, Fall, Rescue (Redemption), and Restoration.

The first section gives an introduction, and the following section provides Scriptures to allow a person to delve into more details.

Creation (Gen 1-2)

Creation teaches us about the initial creation of the earth and heavens as God’s abode, which he wants to share with mankind.

The creation was meant to be a global temple, where the transcendent God fellowships with mankind.

This narrative is presented to us mainly in Genesis 1 and 2. Adam and Eve, the first humans, were created by God and placed in the Garden of Eden. They were created in the image of God, with the purpose of displaying God’s glory in the created realm. Dominion was one way that man displays the image of God. Man was created to reign, and to display God-like virtues in their relationships with one another, and to the creation itself. The analogy of a mirror has been used to describe the image of God. The mirror reflects the light of the Sun. Man was created to worship God as the center of their existence, and to live in peaceful, loving community with Him and with fellow men. Note that their identity was found in their Creator. The initial creation was peaceful and harmonious. Mankind was at peace with God, with fellow man, with the physical creation, and their bodies were functioning in a harmonious manner, with no death, disease or decay. They didn’t have to worry about scarcity of food or a lack of safety. Everything was provided for them. They were commissioned by God to exercise dominion over the earth, to tend the creation and keep it orderly, and to reproduce, creating other fellow image-bearers of God, which would fill the earth with others who reflected the image of God.

The Fall (Gen 3, Rom 5:12-17)

The Fall teaches us about the disruption of this creation harmony.

This disruption occurred soon after the creation, and is described in the chapters of Genesis 3 and Romans 5. God allows Satan, through the serpent, to tempt Adam and Eve, as a necessary test of their loyalty and trust in Him and his goodness and truthfulness. Adam and Eve yield to temptation, and, in unbelief, reject God as their Sovereign Lord and Father. Upon rejection of God, a momentous, earth-shattering event occurred.

Consider all of the benefits that God provided for them in the initial creation. Adam and Eve had safety, security, and bountiful food. Their bodies were designed in a manner where death, disease, and decay didn’t exist. They were at peace with God, between themselves, and the creation. They didn’t have to worry about anything. In one moment of time, this changed.

This situation didn’t affect Adam and Eve alone. Adam served as our representative when he rebelled against God. Because of his decision, mankind was plunged into separation from God. In a spiritual sense, mankind died, because God is the source of spiritual life, and mankind experienced a spiritual separation from Him. He experienced relational conflict in the family and society at the same time. The environment has been affected due to the Fall, too. The earth no longer produces food easily due to the results of the Fall. And, worst of all, he was expelled from the presence of God.

The state of the fallen man is being “in Adam”. The fallen man is represented by his ancestor Adam, by virtue of physical birth, until he is redeemed. The time period called the “present evil age” begins at the point of Adam’s sin.

Rescue (Ps 22, Is. 52-53, Matt 26-28, Mark 14-16, Luke 22-24, John 18-21

Rescue is about God’s rescue plan, fulfilled in Jesus Christ, to reverse the effects of the Fall.

After the Fall, God would have been perfectly just in leaving mankind in his sin, to suffer the consequences: eternal death. That’s really what humans deserve for rebelling against God; all of us. Adam’s sin is our sin, but we personally sin individually in thought and deed. Not a single person is sinless. God is just. This means that he always punishes sin and doesn’t leave anyone that sins unpunished. God is merciful and loving, though.

This rescue plan was presented to mankind in the OT in “fuzzy pictures” such as shadows and types; vague prophecies of Jesus’ rescue mission. The fulfillment of God’s rescue plan, though, is comes to us in the NT, specifically the Gospels.

Because of this great mercy and love, the Father sent the Son, Jesus Christ, on a rescue mission to redeem mankind. Jesus, who is the unique God-man, acquired a second nature during the Incarnation, being fully God and fully man.

Jesus accomplished five things on this rescue mission: 1) he lived a perfectly righteous life, committing no sin whatsoever, in thought or deed 2) he died a substitutionary death on the cross to pay the penalty for man’s sin 3) he showed man the image of God expressed in a human, so that we can imitate him 4) he planted the seed of his kingdom through proclaiming this kingdom, and entrusted it to his apostles 5) he revealed God the Father to us, and the potential sonship we can enjoy with Him and 6) he qualified to be our Messiah-King and High Priest through his sinless life and the sufferings he endured.

He will reign as Messiah at his return. God’s purpose for mankind will be restored, in the sense that Jesus, the perfect Man, will reign over all creation. He has proven his worthiness to rule over all. He was totally sinless and obedient unlike our father, Adam. He demonstrated his great love for us, because he loved us enough to die an agonizing death on the Cross in our behalf, even while we were his enemies. And, he will share his reign with those who belong to Him.

Restoration (Rom 5:18-21, Rev 21-22)

Restoration teaches us about the restoration of fallen mankind from the curse of the Fall. This restoration has a current fulfillment and a future fulfillment.

The current fulfillment relates to the Church. When a sinner is redeem, he becomes a new creation.. He experiences a change in status, identity, and behavior. The fallen man is represented by his physical ancestor, Adam, and is characterized by a sinful nature. When he repents of his sins and places his faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on the Cross and the resurrection, he is “born again”. His status changes from being “in Adam” to “in Christ”. He becomes a new creation in Christ. He receives a new nature that wants to please and obey God. His relationship with God is restored, and he experiences the presence of God in his life. He is added to the Church, the spiritual body of believers.

The Church operates as a new humanity, in Christ, and seeks to resolve conflicts between individuals in a godly manner, however imperfect this effort might be. They recognize Christ as their spiritual ruler and strive to submit themselves to him.

Believers are existing between two ages. They experience the “age to come” in an inaugural sense. This sense is not a complete fulfillment but is a partial fulfillment of the “age to come”.

And, Jesus himself is reigning in heaven. He will return to rule as God’s Anointed One, or Messiah, to reign over the New Heavens and New Earth.

The resurrection will occur at his return. The spirits of saints who have died will be reunited with their reconstituted bodies, which will be glorified. The bodies of saints which are still alive at Jesus’ return will be glorified without experiencing death.

The earth will be renewed, to remove the effects of the Curse. This New Earth will be a glorified version of the Garden of Eden, expanded to fill the entire earth. Those who are unrepentant and persist in evil will not share in this New Creation and will not be allowed to disrupt the harmony. They will suffer eternal punishment outside of this new creation.

Revelation 21, 22 describe the New Heavens and New Earth. Notice the sequence of events presented in the Big Picture narrative. Genesis 1-2 describes Creation, particularly mankind’s creation and the harmony in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 3 describes the Fall. Most of the OT describes the promise of Christ and his rescue mission. The NT describes the fulfillment of this rescue mission. Finally, Revelation 21-22 describes the New Heavens and New Earth in a manner that mirrors the Garden of Eden.

This completes the overview of the Big Picture narrative. More details about each element are presented below.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

CREATION

• God (YHVH) is Triune.
• God (YHVH or Yahweh) is one in terms of Being (Gen 1:27, Deu 4:35, 6:4, 32:39, Mal 2:10, James 2:19).
• God is three in terms of Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19-20, 2 Cor 13:14).
• Christians use the word “Trinity” to describe the Triune nature of God.
• God created all things through the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:1-3, Heb 1:10, Col 1:16-17).
• God is a communicative Being that reveals truth to us through His Word (2 Tim 3:16-17).
• God is eternal, unchanging, holy, merciful, loving, forgiving, compassionate, patient, kind, and longsuffering (Ex 34:6-9, Is 43:25, Num 14:18-19, Ps 25:18, 32:5, 103:3, 130:4, Isa 55:7).
• Adam and Eve were created by God in His image
• They were created to image God’s nature, like a mirror reflects light, and to worship, honor and give thanks to Him (Gen 1:26-28).
• They were given dominion over the earth, to reflect God in the sense of being his ruling representative over the created order (Gen 1:28).
• The marital, family, and societal relationship are meant to image God’s communal nature; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have lived since eternity in community, reflecting love in this relationship. God’s nature is described as love (1 John 4:16).
• Their entire lives, in all spheres of influence, were meant to reflect God’s holiness (moral purity) and love, as image-bearers of God.
• They were created to worship and desire God, and to enjoy worshiping Him, because they are fulfilling their intended purpose.
• They were created to find their identity in Him. Mankind has been blinded concerning this true identity.
• They were placed in the Garden of Eden, a paradise garden where they fellowshipped with God in His presence, enjoying peace, tranquility, wholeness and fullness in every way (the Hebrew word for this state is shalom). In a sense, the Garden of Eden was like a temple, where man enjoyed the presence of God and communed with him.
• They were at peace with God, between themselves, with the physical creation, and their bodies were not subject to death or decay (Gen 1-2).

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

FALL

• God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, through the serpent to test their trust and allegiance (Genesis 3).
• Satan tempted mankind to question God’s goodness, trustworthiness and truthfulness (Gen 3:4-6).
• Adam and Eve were given dominion over all the creation and should have thrown the evil serpent out of the garden, exercising dominion over him and the evil he represented, but they failed to do this (Gen 1:28). Cain made a similar decision in his personal life concerning personal evil, which is personified in animal-like language (Gen 4:7).
• Satan succeeded in creating doubt in Adam and Eve concerning God’s goodness. They sinned against God, breaking his moral law and rebelling against him (Gen 2:17, 3:1-7, 1 John 3:4). They chose to trust the lie of the serpent, rather than God (Rom 1:25). All mankind has made a similar choice to reject God and his Word.
• Fellowship and worship between God and man was interrupted. Adam and Eve’s existence no longer revolved around God (Rom 1:25).
• The image of God in Adam and Eve became marred or shattered, so that they no longer reflected the image (glory) of God anymore (Rom 3:23).
• Instead of reflecting the light of God’s glory, they began to dwell in spiritual darkness due to their separation from Him Their thinking became distorted and futile, and they turned the creation into a false god which rules over them, rather than them ruling over it, according to the original design (Rom 1)
• Idolatry is the fundamental sin; we substitute God and a relationship with Him in order to pursue worthless substitutes (Rom 1).
• Adam and Eve incur the penalty of spiritual death, which is separation from God, who is the source of all spiritual life (Gen 2:16-17, 3:1-24, Rom 6:23, Eph 2:1-2, 4:17-18, Col 2:13).
• As a result of their rebellion, they were expelled from the Garden of Eden and the presence of God (Gen 3:22-24).
• Adam is the representative of all fallen mankind, and his disobedience was imputed to all of mankind (Rom 5:17-19).
• Fallen man is “in Adam”, a phrase used to describe the fleshly, spiritually dead, natural man who is not living a life in union with Christ (Rom 5:12-17, Eph 2:1-3).
• Fallen man is in a state of hostility against God and his laws, and as a result, he is an enemy of God and under His wrath and condemnation (Rom 1:30, 5:9, 8:7, Eph 2:1-3, 5:6, Col 1:21).
• Fallen man is in bondage to sin and Satan, and is being deceived by him (John 8:34, Rom 6:8, 1 Jn 3:8-10, Rev 12:9).
• Fallen man not only sins against God himself; he leads others into sin, including family and friends who are affected by the example of his disobedience. Sin is like a cancer that has wreaked damage upon us, our families, and society in general (Rom 1:28-32).
• Human society, called “the world”, or the “domain of darkness”, is Satan’s instrument for spiritually deceiving mankind and enslaving them, until God liberates them (Acts 26:17-18, Col 1:13, Eph 2:1-10).
• Satan hates the image of God, and seeks to hinder man’s salvation, and to render the saved man spiritually unproductive. He does this by various means, including bondage to sin, addictions, and unhealthy relationships.
• Adam’s decision to reject God and his governance has cosmic implications for the entire creation. As a result, the physical creation reflects a bondage to decay (Rom 8:20).
• The cumulative effect of the Fall is called “the Curse” (Gen 3:14-19, Gal 3:10-14, Rev 22:3).
• The Fall begins a time period called “present evil age” or “this age” or “this world”, which will continue until Jesus’ return and the establishment of the “age to come” (Gen 3:14-19, John 16:11, 1 Cor 2:6, 8, Gal 1:4).

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

RESCUE (REDEMPTION)

• The Rescue was first promised on the OT, through shadows and types (“fuzzy pictures), and then fulfilled in Jesus Christ and his life, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection (Ps 22, Is 52-53, Matt 26-28, Mark 14-16, Luke 22-24, John 18-21).
• Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to redeem mankind from the results of the Fall (Col 1:15-23, 2:9, 1 Jn 3:5-10).
• Jesus was the “seed of the woman”, being born miraculously of the virgin Mary, and destined to crush the head of the “serpent”, who is Satan. His “heel” was bruised, referring to the crucifixion, but he crushes the head of the serpent, dealing a destructive blow (Gen 3:15, Rom 16:20)
• Jesus is fully God and fully man; he is the bridge between man and God.
• Jesus qualified to be our Messiah through conquering Satan and his temptations (Matt 4:1-11, Mark 1:12, Luke 4:1-13), as Adam should have done in the Garden of Eden.
• Jesus lived a perfectly sinless life, showing us what the image of God expressed through a man looks like (2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Pet 1:19, 2:22, 1 John 3:5). He reflected God’s character perfectly (Heb 1:3).
• He died a substitutionary death on the cross, suffering the penalty for sin and the curse of the Fall in our place, even though he didn’t deserve it (Gal 3:10-14, 1 Pet 2:24-25).
• The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross reflects God’s justness as well as His sacrificial love and mercy; He never compromises with sin and always punishes it, but His mercy is shown in that He paid the penalty for our sin through Jesus Christ, and punished Him on the Cross (Is 52-53, Jn 3:16).
• Jesus qualified to be a faithful and sympathetic high priest, by experiencing temptations and suffering so that he can be compassionate towards those he represents (Rom 5:12-19, Heb 4:15-16).
• At the death of Jesus, the veil in the Temple was ripped. This veil was a physical representation of our alienation from God due to the Fall (Matt 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45, Heb 8-10). Jesus eliminated this barrier between redeemed humans and God.
• Jesus conquered over death, defeating it by dying on the Cross (Col 1:14-16).
• Those who are united with Him through faith share in the benefits of the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ. They are joined, or united with Christ in a legal and vital sense, and were crucified with Him, died with Him, and are resurrected with Him. They are joined with Him, becoming one with Him and sharing in his life. Read John 15:1-17, Romans 6, 7, Gal 2:20, 1 Cor 6:17.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

RESTORATION (CONSUMMATION)

• The believer moves from a state of being “in Adam”, represented by him and his death, condemnation, and sinfulness, to a state of being “in Christ”, and represented by him and his life, justification and righteousness (Romans 5:12-20, 2 Cor 5:17, Col 1:27).
• The believer is justified, or accounted as innocent and righteous, on the basis of his faith in Jesus, his sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, and not by works (Rom 5:12-21, Eph 2:8-10).
• The believer is united with Christ in a legal and vital sense (Rom 6). Due to union with Christ, the merits of Christ’s perfectly righteous life are applied to the believer upon salvation as a free gift; we are righteous because we are identified with Him and his righteousness (Rom 5:15-21).
• The believer is joined with Christ in a spiritual sense upon conversion, and enjoys union with him and other believers through the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:17, 10:17, Gal 2:20, 2 Cor 13:5). He is placed into the body of Christ as a result of being born again (1 Cor 6:17, 12:12-13).
• Metaphors related to this union include the vine and the branches (John 15), the head and the body (1 Cor 12), the temple and the stones (1 Pet 2) and marriage (Eph 5).
• The two ordinances of the church, baptism and the Lord’s Supper, are related to this union with Christ. The believer is identified with Jesus’ crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection through water baptism (Col 2:12, Rom 6:4, Gal 2:20, 3:27) and the Lord’s Supper (1 Cor 10:16, 11:27).
• The believer is joined to Christ in a spiritual sense through the Holy Spirit (Gal 2:20, 2 Cor 13:5). This union is important because it gives us spiritual strength and allows us to grow in holiness, endure temptation, persecution and suffering (Phil 4:13).
• The believer is progressively transformed by the Holy Spirit into the image of Jesus Christ (who is God) over His lifetime, by the power of the Holy Spirit, as He continues to grow in grace and knowledge (Rom 8:28-30, Col 3:10, 2 Cor 3:18).
• Satan hates the image of God within the believer, and seeks to destroy it, as well as hinder spiritual growth (Rev 12:17). The Christian needs to be aware of Satan’s devices, and draw close to God to avoid being rendered unproductive (2 Cor 2:11, James 4:7-10, 1 Pet 5:8).
• The believer is adopted by God as a son. God disciplines all his sons, so that they can share his holiness, and completes the work that he starts in them (Heb 12:3-11, Phil 1:6).
• God gives the believer works to do throughout His life, especially witnessing to the excellency of God and of Jesus and serving as an instrument in reconciling others to God, as New Covenant priests (Eph 2:8-10, 2 Cor 5:11-21, 1 Peter 2:9).
• The believer becomes a member of the Church community, which experiences the “age to come” in an inaugurated but not consummated sense (prolepsis).
• The inaugurated “age to come” began at Jesus’ first coming (Matt 4:17).
• The fully consummated “age to come” begins at Jesus’ coming, though (Heb 6:5, Eph 1:21).
• At death, the believers’ spirit enters into the presence of the Lord as a disembodied spirit (Lk 23:43, 2 Cor 5:6-8, Phil 1:23). He enjoys the presence of God in heaven until the resurrection.
• At the general resurrection, when Jesus returns bodily to rule, the believer’s spirit will be joined to his newly resurrected body and glorified, and he will have a body like Jesus’ glorious body (1 Thes 4:14-18, 1 Cor 15).
• Rebellious mankind will be defeated at Jesus’ return. Jesus will reign over all creation and exercise dominion over it. Jesus shares his dominion with the saints (Heb 2:6-8). His reign will be one of peace and righteousness (Isa 9:6-7, Dan 7:13-14, Heb 2:5-9, Rev 11:15-19).
• The entire physical creation will be renewed, and glorified mankind will dwell in the presence of God in the New Heavens and New Earth.
• This New Creation will be an expanded and glorified version of the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden was a mere “fuzzy picture” of the reality (Rom 8:19-23, Rev 21-22).
• There will be no more curse in this new creation (Rev 21:3-4, 22:3). Those who remain in rebellion against him will experience eternal punishment outside of this new creation. The exile of Adam and Eve from Eden, the banishment of unclean individuals from the camp of Israel, the exile of the nation of Israel from Canaan due to their disobedience are all types of this eternal punishment, which involves banishment from the blessing-presence of God (Rev 21:8, 27, 22:14-15).

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You asked a question and you follow with a book and remember that knowledge does not impress God. One needs to speak what God made clear when he first spoke, in other words, one should not speak what one thinks the word of God is saying, God was clear when he spoke. So answer yes or no to your answer, do you believe that God elects to heaven and condemns to hell, or man chooses his destiny why here on earth. I need no explanation, just answer the question you ask with a yes or no.

interprets to support their distorted view of the Scriptures.

If you want a comprehensive view of informed evangelical Christianity, see the previous five posts.

Regarding "writing a book", if one embraces an evangelical Christian worldview, this worldview informs their position on topics like the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws.

Therefore, it is impossible to give you a good explanation without discussing a wide variety of details. That is what these five posts accomplish.

If you don't even understand the trajectory of Scripture, then you can't understand the typological purpose that the Mosaic Law supplied.

So, I challenge you to define your metanarrative if you don't like the implications of mine. Mine is fully Scripturally supported, and I know it is correct. I might be wrong on a few minor details, but I know my thoughts are well-ordered.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

What is your interpretation of Isaiah 64:6? Also Psalms 53:2-3? Also Romans 3:10-18?

As I was reading Psalms 53, though there is none good, not one, in this chapter God looked down (past tense) to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God and saw that everyone of them is gone back (this insinuates that at one time they were seeking God) and become filthy (insinuating that at one time they were walking in a righteous walk before God). This chapter also mentions God has despised them and the last verse talks about bringing them (Israel) back and Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad. Yesterday, I was reading II Kings 17, and as I reading Psalms 53 (since you mentioned it), me can see an example of this Psalms. Psalms 53 does not negate that all men did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, Noah was a just man before God, wasn't he? So, your argument for Calvinism does not stand.

Romans 3:10 - 18, you need to read the entire chapter, the Apostle Paul is conveying that there is a righteousness beyond our righteousness, because he understood what Isaiah wrote that our righteousness is as filthy rags. With this being said, in order to be saved there is a righteousness that we have to put on and that is the righteousness of Yeshua, he made us his righteousness on the cross. God brings all men to the cross, this is why the Scriptures states that all must hear the Gospel (not exact words), why? So that no man has an excuse. When God bring man to the cross man makes the decision if he wants to accept the atonement and follow Yeshua. Not to mention, if the Scriptures talks about that one can betray the faith, does this mean that God elected then he damn right after? So, your argument for Calvinism does not stand.

Many believers tend to pull verses out of context neglecting to read the enter passage and that is not the way to understand the Scriptures. One must allow the Spirit of God to enlighten their mind with an understand of what God made clear when he first spoke.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Sorry, I don't play by other peoples' rules, and I assume a knowledge of Scripture to understand where I'm coming from.

If you are uncomfortable with typological reasoning, you will not be able to understand Scripture correctly. Despite the claims of some dispensationalists, if a person isn't able to reason typologically, they will never understand the Bible correctly.

I have already outlined my general understanding of Scripture, which few evangelical Christians would disagree with, if they understood Scripture.

First, the way you wrote that is the way they all write, nothing changes, same questions, most like they all have read the same book by different authors to support their arguments. What is important is for the Spirit of God to give one the understanding about what God made clear when he first spoke.

Calvinism is a false doctrine, believing a a view that is names after a person should be clear in one minds that it is a view that distorts the word of God. Don't quote me Calvin, quote me the Scriptures what God made clear when he first wrong. The question that I would ask you, if one can betray the faith, does that mean that God first elected him, then spit him out of his mouth to damnation, if that is what you believe you are indulging in false doctrines. Unless you do not believe a believe cannot betray their faith. You have a distorted view of this area of the Scriptures, you are making your God an ugly God, that is not the God I know and serve, my God is merciful, and yes, he is also the God that if he gets angry we perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. But his mercy endureth for ever. Look what he said about Solomon, I will be a father unto him and my mercy will never depart from him. This is the God I serve. Many will perish on the day of judgment and who they are? Those that did not accept the atonement, not what you believe that he created them to damn them.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

If you want a comprehensive view of informed evangelical Christianity, see the previous five posts.

Regarding "writing a book", if one embraces an evangelical Christian worldview, this worldview informs their position on topics like the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws.

Therefore, it is impossible to give you a good explanation without discussing a wide variety of details. That is what these five posts accomplish.

If you don't even understand the trajectory of Scripture, then you can't understand the typological purpose that the Mosaic Law supplied.

So, I challenge you to define your metanarrative if you don't like the implications of mine. Mine is fully Scripturally supported, and I know it is correct. I might be wrong on a few minor details, but I know my thoughts are well-ordered.

I do not read books of theology because they tend to support their own views and there was no such things of Calvinism in the beginning, that was something that came in the 1500's or 1600's. I can give you my email and with can have a mutual debate, highly respecting each other, but not write to much per email so when can respond accordingly. Again, from the way you are write, I see books not bible and I say this respectfully, in other words, you appear to be one that like to point out your view on what you think and will never weigh another view fairly.

So, if you are not willing to dialogue with me, then it is better we do not respond to each other because I concluded you are not willing to weigh an argument for support fairly. I guess it is the end of us, I have a friend just like you, and as it is pointed out to him he would not respond because it is difficult to swallow his pride, and yes, the way you write you appear to be pride and I say this with all respect to you.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I do not read books of theology because they tend to support their own views and there was no such things of Calvinism in the beginning, that was something that came in the 1500's or 1600's. I can give you my email and with can have a mutual debate, highly respecting each other, but not write to much per email so when can respond accordingly. Again, from the way you are write, I see books not bible and I say this respectfully, in other words, you appear to be one that like to point out your view on what you think and will never weigh another view fairly.

So, if you are not willing to dialogue with me, then it is better we do not respond to each other because I concluded you are not willing to weigh an argument for support fairly. I guess it is the end of us, I have a friend just like you, and as it is pointed out to him he would not respond because it is difficult to swallow his pride, and yes, the way you write you appear to be pride and I say this with all respect to you.

Reformed theology is biblical. It didn't "come about" in the 1500's; it has existed all along. God has always had a particular elect people from the foundation of the earth, and salvation is about Jesus Christ and being joined to Him.

Jesus didn't just die to make salvation possible; he died to secure the salvation of his people.

It is so beautiful.

I don't find many outside of Reformed theology to be interesting. They mostly have a part of the puzzle, if that much, but don't think systematically.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

First, the way you wrote that is the way they all write, nothing changes, same questions, most like they all have read the same book by different authors to support their arguments. What is important is for the Spirit of God to give one the understanding about what God made clear when he first spoke.

Calvinism is a false doctrine, believing a a view that is names after a person should be clear in one minds that it is a view that distorts the word of God. Don't quote me Calvin, quote me the Scriptures what God made clear when he first wrong. The question that I would ask you, if one can betray the faith, does that mean that God first elected him, then spit him out of his mouth to damnation, if that is what you believe you are indulging in false doctrines. Unless you do not believe a believe cannot betray their faith. You have a distorted view of this area of the Scriptures, you are making your God an ugly God, that is not the God I know and serve, my God is merciful, and yes, he is also the God that if he gets angry we perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. But his mercy endureth for ever. Look what he said about Solomon, I will be a father unto him and my mercy will never depart from him. This is the God I serve. Many will perish on the day of judgment and who they are? Those that did not accept the atonement, not what you believe that he created them to damn them.

I am not even sure why you are talking to me about the Atonement, since you told me that you are only "leaning toward" Jesus.

Why would you bring up the atonement unless you know that it is something which occurred and secured the salvation of those who place their faith in Jesus Christ?

Regarding "Calvinism", I rarely use the term. I refer to the doctrines of grace as "Reformed theology". As I mentioned, before Calvin was Luther, and before Luther was Augustine, and before Augustine was Paul. What I believe is only Paul's teachings, which are Christ's teachings.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You asked a question and you follow with a book and remember that knowledge does not impress God. One needs to speak what God made clear when he first spoke, in other words, one should not speak what one thinks the word of God is saying, God was clear when he spoke. So answer yes or no to your answer, do you believe that God elects to heaven and condemns to hell, or man chooses his destiny why here on earth. I need no explanation, just answer the question you ask with a yes or no.

interprets to support their distorted view of the Scriptures.

Firstly, you don't define the rules of engagement. If you think you do, you are mistaken. I am not a weak free-willer with an effeminate view of God and Jesus. If you are looking for that, I'm sure there are plenty of sissy-boy free-willers who will accomodate you with their idolatrous views.

Secondly, God elected individuals to eternal life, yes. I don't like using the word "heaven" because heaven is only the intermediate state. The eternal state is everlasting life on earth in a situation similar to the Garden of Eden, only glorified.

Regarding the rest, God passes over them. He doesn't have to elect them to damnation, because they are already damned. When the death angel passed over the Israelite children, he didn't have to do anything; they were not harmed by the death angel by virtue of being passed over. Same with those who are lost......they are already lost.

Read Romans 9 if you want to understand this better. You might know that chapter..it's the one that free-willers scurry past without reading.

By the way, I don't hold the views of ForestGreekCook. He belongs to an aberrant sect that does not reflect core Reformation theology. So, please don't mix our theologies up.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You asked a question and you follow with a book and remember that knowledge does not impress God. One needs to speak what God made clear when he first spoke, in other words, one should not speak what one thinks the word of God is saying, God was clear when he spoke. So answer yes or no to your answer, do you believe that God elects to heaven and condemns to hell, or man chooses his destiny why here on earth. I need no explanation, just answer the question you ask with a yes or no.

interprets to support their distorted view of the Scriptures.

God gifts particular individuals with a better understanding than others in some areas. God isn't impressed by knowledge, because he gives it. If he gave me a better and clearer understanding of the overview of Scripture than others, I have no reason to be prideful about it.

I really think the barrier is idolatry. Idolaters keep trying to form God in their own image. Reformed believers are not afraid to accept God as He is, and not as we want him to be. A truly sovereign LORD is scary to the majority of humanity.

But, at different times I have been an idolater, too...for example, I believed in annihilationism because I believed a god who would eternally torment someone couldn't reflect a god of love. So, I failed to acknowledge that words like death, perish, destruction can be used in other ways than annihilationists claim. I also failed to acknowledge the typology relating to eternal punishment, claiming that the types were the reality. So, I have delved into idolatry, too.

Nowadays I simply acknowledge the Scriptures discussing eternal torment, and realize that the damned will be outside of the New Heavens and New Earth, suffering in a conscious state. They are basically the equivalent of demons by then, anyways.