Not By Works

[VCO]

I read it like it says:
(2Pe 2:20 KJV) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

We were talking about backsliding if you remember.

Then you change the subject, you get personal, insult me, and tell me I'm not filled with the Holy Spirit. I am offended.

Then in the next post you repeat it and say I, "desperately need with CHRIST, WAY more, "

Thank you.

2 Peter 2:20-21 (HCSB)
20 For if, having escaped the world’s impurity through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them.


I am not trying to offend, but you are not understanding SO MUCH, I have to doubt that you have ever been born again.

That verse above is describing a person that only Tasted the Heavenly Gift, and fell away.

Born Again believers, have Consumed the Heavenly Gift, and are INDWELT by HOLY SPIRIT, and it says, "HE WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU."

John 14:16-18 (NASB)
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.


Once HE IS IN YOU, you will not Fall Away.

The night I mourned for hours asking HIM to please forgive me, and willingly SURRENDERED control of my life TO HIM; I knew it was a decision FOREVER. Never Have I DOUBTED. HE HAS ME, firmly in HIS GRASP. That was the last week in 1977. NOT THAT I AM SO STRONG, PURELY HIS grip is so strong, I could not pull away from HIM and NEVER WILL.

John 10:26-28 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.


Those that You are were talking about had to be pre-Born Again disciples, like THESE:

Matthew 7:20-23 (ESV)
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

The Parable of the Gates is Not talking about people who do not call themselves Christian.
It travelers on the two roads, they think that both roads lead to Heaven, only the wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction of HADES/HELL. Only Born Again Believers are one the correct Road and it says ONLY a FEW FIND IT.

 

[dcontroversal]

Cheers. I find it odd for Jesus to give us fifty very stringent commandments, yet despite that people put their weight behind a philosophy of Once Saved Always Saved.

It seems to me to be completely incompatible with the Saviours teaching.

It might be best if I find another forum with more like-minded people to myself, and then you can all play ball together. 😊

AMEN......to your last line!

 

[dcontroversal]

I am thinking you do not understand the "justification" in the letters by James.

I have yet to read anyone on this thread who agrees with God that they are eternally saved, OSAS, reject that part of the Bible.

You seem to be a little desperate in your argument.

Two key phrases of James overlooked...

The devils believe and tremble
SHOW ME your faith

It is the mere belief in GOD he is addressing....the JEWS to this very day overall have the same ISSUE...they believe in GOD, but have not exercised SAVING faith into JESUS as the ONE.

PAUL was clear as well

A MAN is not justified by works before GOD......IT is FAITH and faith alone that justifies a man before GOD

JAMES addresses HOW our FAITH can be SEEN by MEN........end of story!

 

[dcontroversal]

I read it like it says:
(2Pe 2:20 KJV) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

We were talking about backsliding if you remember.

Then you change the subject, you get personal, insult me, and tell me I'm not filled with the Holy Spirit. I am offended.

Then in the next post you repeat it and say I, "desperately need with CHRIST, WAY more, "

Thank you.

I thought you were leaving to peddle your wares someplace else?

 

[dcontroversal]

The faith that is 'alone' (absent of works) is not the faith that justifies all by itself.

False again Ralph....you can post it 938476572820598385 times and it will never be right and reeks of a total disregard for the context of not only Romans, but also JAMES

 

[mailmandan]

what does that verse say about anything becoming an atheist or satanist lolz. just that they are entangled in the corruption of the world again.

Amen! Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (2 Peter 1:4).

Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the "knowledge" of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet was never saved.

 

[PS]

2 Peter 2:20-21 (HCSB)
20 For if, having escaped the world’s impurity through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them.


I am not trying to offend, but you are not understanding SO MUCH, I have to doubt that you have ever been born again.

That verse above is describing a person that only Tasted the Heavenly Gift, and fell away.

Born Again believers, have Consumed the Heavenly Gift, and are INDWELT by HOLY SPIRIT, and it says, "HE WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU."

John 14:16-18 (NASB)
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.


Once HE IS IN YOU, you will not Fall Away.

The night I mourned for hours asking HIM to please forgive me, and willingly SURRENDERED control of my life TO HIM; I knew it was a decision FOREVER. Never Have I DOUBTED. HE HAS ME, firmly in HIS GRASP. That was the last week in 1977. NOT THAT I AM SO STRONG, PURELY HIS grip is so strong, I could not pull away from HIM and NEVER WILL.

John 10:26-28 (HCSB)
26 But you don’t believe because you are not My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish—ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.


Those that You are were talking about had to be pre-Born Again disciples, like THESE:

Matthew 7:20-23 (ESV)
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:13-14 (ESV)
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

The Parable of the Gates is Not talking about people who do not call themselves Christian.
It travelers on the two roads, they think that both roads lead to Heaven, only the wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction of HADES/HELL. Only Born Again Believers are one the correct Road and it says ONLY a FEW FIND IT.

It does not say 'tasted' and it says they have escaped the worlds impurities, meaning they are believers who know the Lord. You are abusing scripture.

 

[PS]

It does not say 'tasted' and it says they have escaped the worlds impurities, meaning they are believers who know the Lord. You are abusing scripture.

What is funny about that DC?

 

[Judges1318]

Doubt is not unbelief.

“I doubt Jesus is Lord”
Sounds like unbelief to me.

Doubt is when you wonder if it's really all true, but you do not denounce and turn away from the message you heard and continue to trust in it.

Unbelief is when you do turn away and denounce the message you heard, whether that be because you had doubts, or you knew it was all true but you just don't want to continue in it anymore for whatever the reason. Unbelief can also happen in a believer by not dealing with sin. And the deceitfulness of that sin hardens the heart to unbelief and you fall away from God:

Hebrews 3:6,12-14 KJV
6 ...Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end

 

[VCO]

It does not say 'tasted' and it says they have escaped the worlds impurities, meaning they are believers who know the Lord. You are abusing scripture.

No you are wrong again:


Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV)
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, [.Notice: it does not say they were INDWELT by the HOLY SPIRIT, but were close enough to share in the SPLASH EFFECT.]
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God [ NOTICE: They only TASTED the WORD, while WE consume the BREAD OF LIFE.]
and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

John 6:48 (KJV)
48 I am that bread of life.

John 1:1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word [ the BREAD OF LIFE.] , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 (KJV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Discern]

Doubt is when you wonder if it's really all true, but you do not denounce and turn away from the message you heard and continue to trust in it.

Unbelief is when you do turn away and denounce the message you heard, whether that be because you had doubts, or you knew it was all true but you just don't want to continue in it anymore for whatever the reason. Unbelief can also happen in a believer by not dealing with sin. And the deceitfulness of that sin hardens the heart to unbelief and you fall away from God:

Hebrews 3:6,12-14 KJV
6 ...Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end

Read vs 14 very carefully. It says that “we have become partakers if we hold fast to the end. “.

In other words, those who have been made partakers of Christ hold fast to the end. If we do not hold fast, we were not partakers to begin with

 

[Discern]

We are called to examine ourselves whether we are in the faith. Apostasy is largely due to people who thought they were Christians, but were never converted/born again.

 

[Discern]

The faith that is 'alone' (absent of works) is not the faith that justifies all by itself.

Faith justifies all by itself, but it is not alone, because it brings Spiritual Life. A believer is no longer dead in sin, he is dead to sin

 

[PS]

Only weaker versions of what it actually says use knowing, {such as NIV, GWT, ect.} while stronger versions us KNOWLEDGE OF, and even the BEST KNOWN PARAPHRASE VERSION the KJV, USES:

2 Peter 2:20 (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

You see that knowing as it is used in weaker Verstions, is not referring to SALVATION, it is referring to HEAD KNOWLEDGE OF. Where as KNOWING HIM personally, and intimately in your HEART which is the HUMAN SPIRIT, IS SALVATION. Why is that so CRITICAL TO UNDERSTAND? Or you go off into another ball park, like you do. REMEMBER THE HUMAN SPIRIT THINKS TOO AFTER IT IS BORN AGAIN.

I really like the way that Young's Literal Translation words it:

2 Peter 2:20 (YLT)
20 for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first,

That is not SALVATION, because even the Demons KNOW WHO HE IS and WHAT HE HAS SAID in their heads. BUT THEY DO NOT KNOW HIM IN THEIR HEARTS PERSONALLY. WE who are BORN AGAIN, DO KNOW HIM PERSONALLY, because HE IS IN OUR HEARTS (HUMAN SPIRIT), and the Holy Spirit has Baptized (IMMERSED) us into HIS Spiritual Body.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

I have knowledge of you in my brain, but I do not know you, while "knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" speaks of a personal relationship.

Only weaker versions of what it actually says use knowing, {such as NIV, GWT, ect.} while stronger versions us KNOWLEDGE OF, and even the BEST KNOWN PARAPHRASE VERSION the KJV, USES:

2 Peter 2:20 (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

You see that knowing as it is used in weaker Verstions, is not referring to SALVATION, it is referring to HEAD KNOWLEDGE OF. Where as KNOWING HIM personally, and intimately in your HEART which is the HUMAN SPIRIT, IS SALVATION. Why is that so CRITICAL TO UNDERSTAND? Or you go off into another ball park, like you do. REMEMBER THE HUMAN SPIRIT THINKS TOO AFTER IT IS BORN AGAIN.

I really like the way that Young's Literal Translation words it:

2 Peter 2:20 (YLT)
20 for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first,

That is not SALVATION, because even the Demons KNOW WHO HE IS and WHAT HE HAS SAID in their heads. BUT THEY DO NOT KNOW HIM IN THEIR HEARTS PERSONALLY. WE who are BORN AGAIN, DO KNOW HIM PERSONALLY, because HE IS IN OUR HEARTS (HUMAN SPIRIT), and the Holy Spirit has Baptized (IMMERSED) us into HIS Spiritual Body.

1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Read it again in plain English.

2Pe 2:20-22 ESV
(20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
(21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

So let us insert a name.

2Pe 2:20-22 ESV
(20) For if, after William escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and he again becomes entangled in them and is overcome by them, then his last state is worse than his first.
(21) It would have been better for William if he had never known the way of righteousness instead of turning back away from the holy commandment delivered to him.
(22) What the true proverb says has happened to William: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

 

[Discern]

I have knowledge of you in my brain, but I do not know you, while "knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" speaks of a personal relationship.



Read it again in plain English.

2Pe 2:20-22 ESV
(20) For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
(21) For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
(22) What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

So let us insert a name.

2Pe 2:20-22 ESV
(20) For if, after William escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and he again becomes entangled in them and is overcome by them, then his last state is worse than his first. (21) It would have been better for William if he had never known the way of righteousness instead of turning back away from the holy commandment delivered to him.(22) What the true proverb says has happened to William: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Knowing Jesus is indeed a personal relationship...

 

[dcontroversal]

What is funny about that DC?

You saying he is abusing scripture.....that is a laughing stock joke coming from you......

 

[dcontroversal]

Knowing Jesus is indeed a personal relationship...

At the end of the day it is about JESUS knowing US.....

MANY "plenteous in number" will come before JESUS saying, "LORD, LORD, have we not done....blah, blah blah..."

A. The acknowledge Jesus as LORD <--a claim of faith
B. They fully expect to enter based upon all the WONDERFUL works done in his name

HE states clearly that he NEVER KNEW THEM

We can deduce 2 things or more from this...

a. THEY were NEVER saved and then lost it
b. THEY trusted into a gospel that HAD no power to save
C. Biblically we can deduce they BLENDED FAITH with WORKS to either gain or maintain salvation. <---NO power to save in that message

 

[Judges1318]

We are called to examine ourselves whether we are in the faith. Apostasy is largely due to people who thought they were Christians, but were never converted/born again.

Largely, I agree, but not exclusively.

 

[Discern]

At the end of the day it is about JESUS knowing US.....

MANY "plenteous in number" will come before JESUS saying, "LORD, LORD, have we not done....blah, blah blah..."

A. The acknowledge Jesus as LORD <--a claim of faith
B. They fully expect to enter based upon all the WONDERFUL works done in his name

HE states clearly that he NEVER KNEW THEM

We can deduce 2 things or more from this...

a. THEY were NEVER saved and then lost it
b. THEY trusted into a gospel that HAD no power to save
C. Biblically we can deduce they BLENDED FAITH with WORKS to either gain or maintain salvation. <---NO power to save in that message

Sometimes a and b can be the case when c is not the case

 

[Judges1318]

Read vs 14 very carefully. It says that “we have become partakers if we hold fast to the end. “.

In other words, those who have been made partakers of Christ hold fast to the end. If we do not hold fast, we were not partakers to begin with

If that's the point he's trying to make then the only thing a person can know is if they AREN'T a partaker of Christ, because if holding fast to the very end is how and when you know you ARE a partaker of Christ then you can't know that until you get to the end. I'm confident that's not what he's trying to stress.

The point is not whether you were really a true believer to begin with, or not. The point is, you are not a partaker of Christ if you fall away. Only people who believe are partakers of Christ. The person who once believed but fell away is not a partaker of Christ (anymore), and the fake believer who falls away is not a partaker of Christ either.