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the fact that the heavens declare His handiwork doesn't mean that He created the heavens and the earth primarily to prove to idiots that He exists.
please have a look at this:
this says He who created all things had the intent that His wisdom be made known through His church: this wisdom, namely, the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus: God manifest in the flesh.
so the primary purpose of the cosmos is to reveal the work that Jesus the Lord of Lords authored & perfected.
not to convince atheists that someone must have designed this thing.
to testify of the risen Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world: and at just the right time, in these late days in which He has revealed Himself.
please have a look at this:
To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
(Ephesians 3:8-12)
this says that the mystery has been hidden in God from the beginning of time. (Ephesians 3:8-12)
this says He who created all things had the intent that His wisdom be made known through His church: this wisdom, namely, the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus: God manifest in the flesh.
so the primary purpose of the cosmos is to reveal the work that Jesus the Lord of Lords authored & perfected.
not to convince atheists that someone must have designed this thing.
to testify of the risen Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world: and at just the right time, in these late days in which He has revealed Himself.
4
it is significant that Abel sheds blood and Cain does not, but it is also significant that Abel brings firstfruits and Cain does not - Passover is in the midst of firstfruits and Yom Kippur is not, and individual offerings for transgression are when the sin is committed and confessed, not "in the course of time" ((taking that to imply a specified time)).
Yep, leave it up to me to misread/misinterpret something. Do stand corrected, and apologize all for making a false reference.
Thanks.
Yep, leave it up to me to misread/misinterpret something. Do stand corrected, and apologize all for making a false reference.
Thanks.
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The cross humbled the Lord Jesus Christ - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross - Phil 2:8.
However, Jesus was not left in the grave. He was resurrected to life - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - John 11:25
He also ascended up into heaven and it is in His ascension that He has been given a name which is above every name and He is Head over all things to the church - And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church (Eph 1:19-22).
Please note ... as far as your statement "If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1)" ... John 10:1 refers to those who would come in with false doctrine to lead the sheep astray (of whom the thief of John 10:10 is chief among the "hirelings").
John 10:1 does not refer to those who desire "to come any other way" to come to the Father. The only way to come to the Father is through the Son. No other way.
John 10:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
However, Jesus was not left in the grave. He was resurrected to life - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live - John 11:25
He also ascended up into heaven and it is in His ascension that He has been given a name which is above every name and He is Head over all things to the church - And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church (Eph 1:19-22).
Please note ... as far as your statement "If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1)" ... John 10:1 refers to those who would come in with false doctrine to lead the sheep astray (of whom the thief of John 10:10 is chief among the "hirelings").
John 10:1 does not refer to those who desire "to come any other way" to come to the Father. The only way to come to the Father is through the Son. No other way.
John 10:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Good day Butterflyy,
I started out with the KJV, but it is not my choice translation. I would suggest using an app that allows you to see all of the major translations of verse all at the same time. This will allow you to compare how each translation stacks up against each other. For the most part, they seem to convey the same information, with just different wording.
It will also allow you to look up the definitions of Hebrew and Greek words, as well as the interlinear and many other studies. The app below is the one that I have been using for years.
https://biblehub.com/
I started out with the KJV, but it is not my choice translation. I would suggest using an app that allows you to see all of the major translations of verse all at the same time. This will allow you to compare how each translation stacks up against each other. For the most part, they seem to convey the same information, with just different wording.
It will also allow you to look up the definitions of Hebrew and Greek words, as well as the interlinear and many other studies. The app below is the one that I have been using for years.
https://biblehub.com/
That is correct! Regardless of what time Cain brought his offering, it would have been rejected and that because it did not have to do with the shedding of blood. Cain's offering represents our attempt to be reconciled to God through our own works.
From the very beginning God has been demonstrating that unless their is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. We first see this when God found Adam and Eve in the garden hiding and wearing fig leaves. Though Adam and Eve where covered, God went out and had an animal killed to cover themselves, which is what the blood of Christ does, it covers our sins.
This is also evident from the animal sacrifices contained in the law. Though the blood of animals could not atone for our sins, they were required by the law.
The shedding of blood was pointing to what Jesus would eventually do. Unlike the blood of animals, His blood is righteous, for He became a human, but committed no sin. Since the wages of sin is death, then death could not hold Him because where there is no sin, death had no power to hold Him. As a human being, He met the righteous requirements of the law, satisfying it completely. He also took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, so that God's wrath no longer rests upon us. This is why I keep telling these post-tribbers that we cannot possibly be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, because it was already satisfied by Jesus.
Those who don't believe in Him, have no blood covering them and are therefore still in their sins, which leads to death. Everyone who continues in unbelief remains condemned until or if that person believes in Christ as the One who provided salvation for him by the shedding of His blood.
When someone believes in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. Those who continue in unbelief, they will be held accountable for their own sins at the great white throne judgment - Rev.20:11-15
From the very beginning God has been demonstrating that unless their is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. We first see this when God found Adam and Eve in the garden hiding and wearing fig leaves. Though Adam and Eve where covered, God went out and had an animal killed to cover themselves, which is what the blood of Christ does, it covers our sins.
This is also evident from the animal sacrifices contained in the law. Though the blood of animals could not atone for our sins, they were required by the law.
The shedding of blood was pointing to what Jesus would eventually do. Unlike the blood of animals, His blood is righteous, for He became a human, but committed no sin. Since the wages of sin is death, then death could not hold Him because where there is no sin, death had no power to hold Him. As a human being, He met the righteous requirements of the law, satisfying it completely. He also took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, so that God's wrath no longer rests upon us. This is why I keep telling these post-tribbers that we cannot possibly be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, because it was already satisfied by Jesus.
Those who don't believe in Him, have no blood covering them and are therefore still in their sins, which leads to death. Everyone who continues in unbelief remains condemned until or if that person believes in Christ as the One who provided salvation for him by the shedding of His blood.
When someone believes in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. Those who continue in unbelief, they will be held accountable for their own sins at the great white throne judgment - Rev.20:11-15
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I noticed something about tribulation in your post. Gods wrath is done at time of judgement. This is after tribulation. Can you share the scriptures you are basing your belief? For growth ofcourse. Not for arguement.
This tribulation topic has caught my attention for the past few months and id like your feedback. You are well versed in scripture. Id appreciate your context.
This tribulation topic has caught my attention for the past few months and id like your feedback. You are well versed in scripture. Id appreciate your context.
Thank you for your compliment. And the Lord bless you for your desire to know this information.
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." - Rev.1:3
God's ultimate wrath and judgment for all of the unrighteous throughout all history, will take place at the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the millennial kingdom. However, God's wrath is also coming upon the earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are described from Revelation chapters 6 thru 18. This time of tribulation/wrath will be a time like the earth has never seen form the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again (Matt.24:15).
Just to give you an idea, with just the first four seals and the 6th trumpet judgment combined, over 1.7 billion will be killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the seven bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated. In fact Jesus says regarding the last 3 1/2 years, that if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth.
This period of wrath is also known as "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial." This is why Jesus continually warns believers to be watching and ready for His appearing. Because once He comes gather the church, anyone who isn't ready, the door will be shut and that time of wrath will begin shortly after, affecting everyone caught in that time period. There will be people who will become believers after the church has been gathered, but they will still be exposed to all of the plagues of wrath and that simply because they will be on the earth. These are referred to as "the great tribulation saints" who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, the majority of which will be killed because during the time of the beasts reign, they will keep their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark. Needless to say, that time of coming wrath is going to be unimaginable.
If you haven't already, I would suggest doing an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to get a better understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath.
Thank God that the Lord promises to keep believers out of that time of wrath.
"Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." - Rev.1:3
God's ultimate wrath and judgment for all of the unrighteous throughout all history, will take place at the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the millennial kingdom. However, God's wrath is also coming upon the earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are described from Revelation chapters 6 thru 18. This time of tribulation/wrath will be a time like the earth has never seen form the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again (Matt.24:15).
Just to give you an idea, with just the first four seals and the 6th trumpet judgment combined, over 1.7 billion will be killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the seven bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated. In fact Jesus says regarding the last 3 1/2 years, that if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth.
This period of wrath is also known as "the day of the Lord" and "the hour of trial." This is why Jesus continually warns believers to be watching and ready for His appearing. Because once He comes gather the church, anyone who isn't ready, the door will be shut and that time of wrath will begin shortly after, affecting everyone caught in that time period. There will be people who will become believers after the church has been gathered, but they will still be exposed to all of the plagues of wrath and that simply because they will be on the earth. These are referred to as "the great tribulation saints" who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17, the majority of which will be killed because during the time of the beasts reign, they will keep their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark. Needless to say, that time of coming wrath is going to be unimaginable.
If you haven't already, I would suggest doing an in depth study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to get a better understanding of the severity of God's coming wrath.
Thank God that the Lord promises to keep believers out of that time of wrath.
Yes I have read revelation and I have started the study of tribulation. But have not come across any rapture. It says the saints will actually have to endure during this tribulation period. As you mentioned the days will be shortened for this reason. It also says the 2 prophets will be in Jerusalem preaching for the 3 and a half years. Until they are killed and bodies left out for 3 days. This is during the tribulation. It is also said there is numerous saints before the throne calling out to Jesus worshipping God in heaven. And when asked who these were, the angel replied these are those who died during the great tribulation.
So again I ask can you clarify your stand on rapture? Because I assume you are on pre tribulation. My stance thus far is post tribulation when Jesus arrives in all His glory for the world to see. God bless you brother thanks for your response. Look forward to your reply.
So again I ask can you clarify your stand on rapture? Because I assume you are on pre tribulation. My stance thus far is post tribulation when Jesus arrives in all His glory for the world to see. God bless you brother thanks for your response. Look forward to your reply.
First of all, it is important to understand the difference between the church and the great tribulation saints.
The church = All believers from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection
Great tribulation saints = Individuals who become believers after the church has been removed from the earth and during that seven year period.
That said, I would point out that the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. After the end of chapter 3, the word ekklesia/church disappears from the narrative. After the end of chapter 3 and beginning in 5:8, the word hagios/saints is used. Nowhere in Revelation is the word church and saints used interchangeably. The next time the word church is used, is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog. You will never see the word church within the narrative of God's wrath.
The key to understanding the chronological order of Revelation in relation to history, is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:
What you have seen = Everything from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period
What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period
In Rev.4:1, John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which says, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, which begins the "what must take place later" which John was told to write. That said, we are currently still living in the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write. Once the church is gathered, then the "what must take place later" will begin.
Rev.4:1 is what I call, a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered. That voice that sounds like a trumpet, is synonymous with "the trumpet of God" found in I Thess.4:16. This is in fact why the word church no longer appears in the narrative after the end of chapter 3.
Regarding the above, this is why it is important to understand the difference between the church and the great tribulation saints, which are two separate groups.
Prior to chapter 7, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then here in chapter 7, he is being introduced to a great company of white robed saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles. Then one of the elders asks John "these in white robes, who are did they come from?" The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is when he just wrote letters to the seven churches, tell us that this group is not the church, neither are they referred to as such. In further support of this, John says that he doesn't know who they are. Then the elder says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation. These are people who will become believers after the church as been gathered and will be caught during the time of God's wrath.
The biggest problem with the post-trib view, is that it would put the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God.
Those who have received Christ as Lord and Savior, have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely and therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon believers, nor are we appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. (Rom.5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10). Believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath, neither the wrath coming upon the earth nor the wrath at the final judgment. We are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, because Jesus already did.
What is happening to you, is the same thing that happens with many, which is not recognizing that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
The church, which is the bride of Christ, is seen in Rev.19:6-8 receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb which is taking place in heaven. Then in verse 14 in that same chapter, the bride is seen wearing her fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven in the second coming. That said, in order to attend the wedding of the Lamb and follow the Lord out of heaven, the church would already have to be in heaven. In support of this, we also have the following:
"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
The scripture above is in reference to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Those "called, chosen and faithful followers that will be with Christ, is the church who will have been resurrected and caught up prior to the time of God's wrath.
Gathering of the church (I Thess.4:16-17, I Cor.15:51-53)
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Second Coming (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The events above are two separate events, taking place at least seven years apart.
The on-going error, is that people are interpreting them as taking place at the being the same event and taking place at the same time. As long as people continue to interpret this as such, their end-time eschatology will be in error.
The church = All believers from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection
Great tribulation saints = Individuals who become believers after the church has been removed from the earth and during that seven year period.
That said, I would point out that the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. After the end of chapter 3, the word ekklesia/church disappears from the narrative. After the end of chapter 3 and beginning in 5:8, the word hagios/saints is used. Nowhere in Revelation is the word church and saints used interchangeably. The next time the word church is used, is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog. You will never see the word church within the narrative of God's wrath.
The key to understanding the chronological order of Revelation in relation to history, is found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:
What you have seen = Everything from Rev.1:1 to 1:19
What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period
What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period
In Rev.4:1, John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet which says, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this, which begins the "what must take place later" which John was told to write. That said, we are currently still living in the "what is now" portion of what John was told to write. Once the church is gathered, then the "what must take place later" will begin.
Rev.4:1 is what I call, a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered. That voice that sounds like a trumpet, is synonymous with "the trumpet of God" found in I Thess.4:16. This is in fact why the word church no longer appears in the narrative after the end of chapter 3.
Regarding the above, this is why it is important to understand the difference between the church and the great tribulation saints, which are two separate groups.
Prior to chapter 7, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then here in chapter 7, he is being introduced to a great company of white robed saints which no man can count from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles. Then one of the elders asks John "these in white robes, who are did they come from?" The very fact that the elder is asking John who this group is when he just wrote letters to the seven churches, tell us that this group is not the church, neither are they referred to as such. In further support of this, John says that he doesn't know who they are. Then the elder says, "these are those who have come out of the great tribulation. These are people who will become believers after the church as been gathered and will be caught during the time of God's wrath.
The biggest problem with the post-trib view, is that it would put the living church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the wrath of God.
Those who have received Christ as Lord and Savior, have been credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely and therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon believers, nor are we appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. (Rom.5:9, I Thess.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10). Believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath, neither the wrath coming upon the earth nor the wrath at the final judgment. We are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, because Jesus already did.
What is happening to you, is the same thing that happens with many, which is not recognizing that the gathering of the church is a separate event from when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.
The church, which is the bride of Christ, is seen in Rev.19:6-8 receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb which is taking place in heaven. Then in verse 14 in that same chapter, the bride is seen wearing her fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven in the second coming. That said, in order to attend the wedding of the Lamb and follow the Lord out of heaven, the church would already have to be in heaven. In support of this, we also have the following:
"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
The scripture above is in reference to when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Those "called, chosen and faithful followers that will be with Christ, is the church who will have been resurrected and caught up prior to the time of God's wrath.
Gathering of the church (I Thess.4:16-17, I Cor.15:51-53)
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Second Coming (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The events above are two separate events, taking place at least seven years apart.
The on-going error, is that people are interpreting them as taking place at the being the same event and taking place at the same time. As long as people continue to interpret this as such, their end-time eschatology will be in error.
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I disagree with the idea that the church and saints are two different understandings. The saints are Gods Holy People. Which is us who are born again of the Spirit. I am a saint in the eyes of God. The seven letters to the churches for the most part were rebukes and strong admonishing. They were accused of being lukewarm among other things. So the distinction between those disobedient churches and saints would only suggest that the saints were Holy and did not fall into those 7 churches. Which we see alot of in these dark times. Many false and lukewarm churches.
So id have to disagree that revelation is referring to saints as something other than His Children. There are many many references throughout the bible that refers to His people as saints. We are addressed as saints in many Psalms. So I do not agree that just because its referring to saints means that the church has been raptured.
You are right I myself do feel that Paul is referring to the second coming in that scripture about the twinkling of an eye. If you can provide scripture that suggests that saints means people who do not belong to the church Id like to see it. Because that is just a speculation not a concrete truth. It was a good observation I might add. Like I said I enjoy your responses. Your a really knowledgeable brother. I hope I do not offend.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (KJV)
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. 9 If any one has an ear, let him hear:
10 If any one is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if any one slays with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. (RSV)
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life,the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people. (NIV)
7 And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. 8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.
9 Anyone with ears to hear
should listen and understand.
10 Anyone who is destined for prison
will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword
will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful. (NLT)
So id have to disagree that revelation is referring to saints as something other than His Children. There are many many references throughout the bible that refers to His people as saints. We are addressed as saints in many Psalms. So I do not agree that just because its referring to saints means that the church has been raptured.
You are right I myself do feel that Paul is referring to the second coming in that scripture about the twinkling of an eye. If you can provide scripture that suggests that saints means people who do not belong to the church Id like to see it. Because that is just a speculation not a concrete truth. It was a good observation I might add. Like I said I enjoy your responses. Your a really knowledgeable brother. I hope I do not offend.
Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (KJV)
7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. 9 If any one has an ear, let him hear:
10 If any one is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
if any one slays with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.
Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. (RSV)
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life,the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.
10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people. (NIV)
7 And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. 8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.
9 Anyone with ears to hear
should listen and understand.
10 Anyone who is destined for prison
will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword
will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful. (NLT)
As a matter of fact by your first explanation you stated that God raptured the church and closed the door and poured out His wrath during tribulation. If that is true then how can these so called post rapture saints come about? When God closes the door there will be weeping and nashing of teeth and no man can open that door. It is too late. So that could not happen. These saints cannot be converted during post rapture as you mentioned just by the idea that Gods people will not suffer wrath. These two conflict.
If this is true then why did Abimelech give to Abraham sheep, oxen and servants and then say to him," Behold my land is before you: dwell where it pleases you."
Also a thousand pieces of silver is not consistent with a 'reproof.'
God is righteous of course, and we never see Him discipline Abraham or Sarah in this matter, rather we see Him bless and protect them. (V7).
And btw Sarah WAS Abraham's sister-they had the same father.
The word in the KJV for reproved can be understood to mean 'to show to be right.' It is feasible that Abimelech was publicly showing that Sarah had not had sexual relations with him: Chapter 20 verse 4 and verse 6.
Also a thousand pieces of silver is not consistent with a 'reproof.'
God is righteous of course, and we never see Him discipline Abraham or Sarah in this matter, rather we see Him bless and protect them. (V7).
And btw Sarah WAS Abraham's sister-they had the same father.
The word in the KJV for reproved can be understood to mean 'to show to be right.' It is feasible that Abimelech was publicly showing that Sarah had not had sexual relations with him: Chapter 20 verse 4 and verse 6.
but how do i know it's a sin offering? your explanation is just "it is"
there are offerings in the law of blood that aren't sin offerings - a vow or a thanksgiving offering for example, Leviticus 22.
((not that they had the law, but that the law informs us about precepts of offerings))
the presence of blood in and of itself doesn't tell me that it's for their sin that they are doing this.
Abel's 'works' are tending flocks, and he brings a gift from his own works just as Cain does of his.
there are offerings in the law of blood that aren't sin offerings - a vow or a thanksgiving offering for example, Leviticus 22.
((not that they had the law, but that the law informs us about precepts of offerings))
the presence of blood in and of itself doesn't tell me that it's for their sin that they are doing this.
Abel's 'works' are tending flocks, and he brings a gift from his own works just as Cain does of his.
there are offerings in the law that contain no blood. drink offerings, wave offerings, grain offerings for thanksgiving, the shewbread, etc. the scripture doesn't tell me no offering at all without blood is accepted -- though it does say, no offering without salt! ((Leviticus 2:13)) -- yet no mention of salt at all in Genesis 4!
not saying the presence of blood in Abel's offering isn't significant, but i don't see a justification to assume they are doing this for transgression yet.
besides the difference between what they brought - a slain animal with its fat portions vs. produce - there are two other details here: Abel's is said to be of the firstlings, and Cain's is not said to be of the first of the fruits. and they do this 'in the course of time' - which has a connotation of the time they do it being significant, not random.
typically under the law - which was given a couple thousand years later - if i sin, i bring an offering for atonement immediately; i don't wait for a certain time of year.
i'm not convinced this is just an ordinary transgression offering. they're doing it together, at the same time, probably on a significant day, and there's no mention of them seeking to make atonement for anything in particular.
not saying the presence of blood in Abel's offering isn't significant, but i don't see a justification to assume they are doing this for transgression yet.
besides the difference between what they brought - a slain animal with its fat portions vs. produce - there are two other details here: Abel's is said to be of the firstlings, and Cain's is not said to be of the first of the fruits. and they do this 'in the course of time' - which has a connotation of the time they do it being significant, not random.
typically under the law - which was given a couple thousand years later - if i sin, i bring an offering for atonement immediately; i don't wait for a certain time of year.
i'm not convinced this is just an ordinary transgression offering. they're doing it together, at the same time, probably on a significant day, and there's no mention of them seeking to make atonement for anything in particular.
hey! that was one of my posts 
it's probably my fault for not being clear enough about what i was trying to say.
i mentioned Yom Kippur because the majority of preaching & people talking about this say it is a sin offering, like those described in the law of Moses.
i think Genesis 4:3 is telling us that it's at a specific time they do this, and of the 7 feast days in the law that take place at appointed times, Yom Kippur is for atonement for the sins of all the people. it's two goats.
there are few details in Genesis 4, so each is significant. one of these significant things is the slain animal vs. the produce, yes ((of all the details that could have been given, why does the Bible point out that Abel keeps flocks and Cain tills ground?)) - and another significant detail is that Abel's is said to be 'firstlings' but Cain's is not described as firstfruits. so whatever the explanation of this event is, there are those two other things to account for: at a certain time, and something to do with firstfruits.
so i said, if it has something to do with firstfruits, if it has something to do with appointed times, if the sacrifices and appointed times in the law can shed light on what's happening here, a couple thousand years before the law, then Yom Kippur probably isn't the analogous feast, because it's got nothing to do with firstfruits.
but passover does. it's in the season of the first harvest of spring, at the beginning of the days of unleavened bread. and it commemorates a day in which the shedding of blood marked out the people of God's promise, so that they were saved from death - passover includes instructions about clothing, about eating, and not only a lamb slain but bitter herbs, and hyssop, and having faith.
Genesis 3 tells me about Genesis 4. in Genesis 3 i have death and a promise of salvation from it, i have a slain animal, i have clothing, i have faith, and i have figs. i have leaving a cultivated place and going back to where people were taken from, in wilderness. i have an appointed time. there are a lot of pieces here that fit
it's probably my fault for not being clear enough about what i was trying to say.
i mentioned Yom Kippur because the majority of preaching & people talking about this say it is a sin offering, like those described in the law of Moses.
i think Genesis 4:3 is telling us that it's at a specific time they do this, and of the 7 feast days in the law that take place at appointed times, Yom Kippur is for atonement for the sins of all the people. it's two goats.
there are few details in Genesis 4, so each is significant. one of these significant things is the slain animal vs. the produce, yes ((of all the details that could have been given, why does the Bible point out that Abel keeps flocks and Cain tills ground?)) - and another significant detail is that Abel's is said to be 'firstlings' but Cain's is not described as firstfruits. so whatever the explanation of this event is, there are those two other things to account for: at a certain time, and something to do with firstfruits.
so i said, if it has something to do with firstfruits, if it has something to do with appointed times, if the sacrifices and appointed times in the law can shed light on what's happening here, a couple thousand years before the law, then Yom Kippur probably isn't the analogous feast, because it's got nothing to do with firstfruits.
but passover does. it's in the season of the first harvest of spring, at the beginning of the days of unleavened bread. and it commemorates a day in which the shedding of blood marked out the people of God's promise, so that they were saved from death - passover includes instructions about clothing, about eating, and not only a lamb slain but bitter herbs, and hyssop, and having faith.
Genesis 3 tells me about Genesis 4. in Genesis 3 i have death and a promise of salvation from it, i have a slain animal, i have clothing, i have faith, and i have figs. i have leaving a cultivated place and going back to where people were taken from, in wilderness. i have an appointed time. there are a lot of pieces here that fit
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Luke 9:23 - And He said to them all, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
Denial of self is recognizing my moral and spiritual poverty; for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing (Romans 7:18). It is knowing and understanding that I am unable to serve God in my own will power, self-will, strength, ability, and power. We see this in the first three "Beatitudes."
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Matthew 5:4
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5
Take up his cross is seen in Matthew 5:6; Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
I am filled by God's provisions (GRACE) found in Christ by placing my Faith exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified (Believing who Jesus is, and what Jesus has done). Therefore I receive all the benefits of this "Resurrection Life" by understanding that we have been planted together [Christ and ourselves] in the likeness of His Death [Romans 6:5, Psalm 103:2].
Romans 8:13, Zechariah 4:6 - Without Jesus you can do nothing (John 15:5)!!!!!
Without the knowledge of the Cross for sanctification, you will die (spiritually).
If this person try to come through another door, they are a thief and robber! John 10:1
Denial of self is recognizing my moral and spiritual poverty; for I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwells no good thing (Romans 7:18). It is knowing and understanding that I am unable to serve God in my own will power, self-will, strength, ability, and power. We see this in the first three "Beatitudes."
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:3
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Matthew 5:4
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5
Take up his cross is seen in Matthew 5:6; Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
I am filled by God's provisions (GRACE) found in Christ by placing my Faith exclusively in Christ and Him Crucified (Believing who Jesus is, and what Jesus has done). Therefore I receive all the benefits of this "Resurrection Life" by understanding that we have been planted together [Christ and ourselves] in the likeness of His Death [Romans 6:5, Psalm 103:2].
Romans 8:13, Zechariah 4:6 - Without Jesus you can do nothing (John 15:5)!!!!!
Without the knowledge of the Cross for sanctification, you will die (spiritually).
If this person try to come through another door, they are a thief and robber! John 10:1
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