Which gospel?

[Elihoenai]

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 King James Version (KJV)

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


The Satan/Devil founded and devotedly protects an all-pervasive Counterfeit Gospel and Yeshua\Jesus. In fact, Satan/Devil has a very Powerful Trinity that exercises total control over followers of Pop Christianity. The Billions of converted to Pop Christianity are under the Strong Delusion that they are Saved.


Pop music

Pop music is a genre of popular music that originated in its modern forms in the US and the UK during the mid-1950s.[4] The terms "popular music" and "pop music" are often used interchangeably, although both describe all music that is popular and that include many diverse styles. "Pop" and "rock" were roughly synonymous terms until the late 1960s, when they became quite separated from each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And Paul did not deliver a wrong gospel. He preached the right gospel and they believed. If they don't hold on then they have believed in vain.

He delivered [what the disciples BEFORE Jesus' death on the Cross DIDN'T/COULDN'T yet "deliver" [before His resurrection; see John 20:9 and Mark 16:14, etc)] the VITAL ASPECT [of this particular "message"] of/including "His RESURRECTION"; those NOT "holding" to that teaching (by DISREGARDING there being such a thing as "resurrection" [v.12!]) are NOT "saved" and cannot be "saved" (they will have "believed in vain" by leaving off this vital aspect OF THE TEACHING [/"the gospel"] that Paul was tasked with "preaching"]).

 

[PennEd]

And Paul did not deliver a wrong gospel. He preached the right gospel and they believed. If they don't hold on then they have believed in vain.

I have already, as you well know, defeated you on this
"believe in vain issue". Your response of
Well, I just don't see it that way" is rather lame, and doesn't change the Truth one smidgen: FROM the "Why I now believe that salvation can be lost thread:

In order to grasp Paul's comment about believing in vain, you have to take the whole passage IN CONTEXT.

I think this gentleman does an excellent job explaining what "believing in vain" means here in context.

1 Corinthians 15:12-17
"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And IF Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise IF it is true that the dead are not raised. For IF the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain and you are still in your sins."

Only in one hypothetical case could someone believe in Jesus Christ and his believing be in vain. This would happen IF Jesus Christ hadn't been raised from the dead. In that case your most honest believing would really not be able to save you. Without the resurrection of the Lord Jesus there would be no salvation. Without His resurrection, our believing would be in vain, empty, futile. Look what else would have happened, if Christ had not risen:

So in other words, if you confess Jesus with your mouth, yet don't believe in your heart He was raised to life, you have believed in Him in vain.

 

[Noose]

I have already, as you well know, defeated you on this
"believe in vain issue". Your response of
Well, I just don't see it that way" is rather lame, and doesn't change the Truth one smidgen: FROM the "Why I now believe that salvation can be lost thread:

In order to grasp Paul's comment about believing in vain, you have to take the whole passage IN CONTEXT.

I think this gentleman does an excellent job explaining what "believing in vain" means here in context.

1 Corinthians 15:12-17
"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And IF Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise IF it is true that the dead are not raised. For IF the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain and you are still in your sins."

Only in one hypothetical case could someone believe in Jesus Christ and his believing be in vain. This would happen IF Jesus Christ hadn't been raised from the dead. In that case your most honest believing would really not be able to save you. Without the resurrection of the Lord Jesus there would be no salvation. Without His resurrection, our believing would be in vain, empty, futile. Look what else would have happened, if Christ had not risen:

So in other words, if you confess Jesus with your mouth, yet don't believe in your heart He was raised to life, you have believed in Him in vain.

Your views would make sense without this part:

1 Cor 15:1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Otherwise, your views are definitely wrong.

 

[Noose]

He delivered [what the disciples BEFORE Jesus' death on the Cross DIDN'T/COULDN'T yet "deliver" [before His resurrection; see John 20:9 and Mark 16:14, etc)] the VITAL ASPECT [of this particular "message"] of/including "His RESURRECTION"; those NOT "holding" to that teaching (by DISREGARDING there being such a thing as "resurrection" [v.12!]) are NOT "saved" and cannot be "saved" (they will have "believed in vain" by leaving off this vital aspect OF THE TEACHING [/"the gospel"] that Paul was tasked with "preaching"]).

Wrong but thanks for the response.

 

[PennEd]

Your views would make sense without this part:

1 Cor 15:1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

Otherwise, your views are definitely wrong.

Nope. I told you then, as now, you need to read the WHOLE chapter to get the context of the passage.

You went Biblical grocery shopping. Picked up part of a passage, put it in your cart because it fit your works to maintain salvation souffle you are always cooking up, then bypassed the other TRUE ingredients that make your souffle flatter than a pancake, and went to another heretical aisle picking and choosing, instead of taking the WHOLE counsel of God.

 

[Noose]

No, not *all* of the Revelation; I've mentioned in past posts that ONLY the following aspects of the Revelation are "future":

--Revelation 1:1 [22:6] says, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass [<--comp that phrase with the verses I will supply below this one] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" (NOT things which would transpire over the course of some 2000 yrs, nor things which would transpire "IMMEDIATELY [ADVERB]," nor "SOON [ADVERB]," nor "QUICKLY [ADVERB]"; but "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; parallel a cpl other verses I've pointed out in the past]";

--Revelation 1:19c, "things which must [/are certain to - G3195 mellei / mello] take place [comp same ^ ] after these [/these things]" (that is, AFTER the things already JUST listed and described as being "the things WHICH ARE" [i.e. chpts 2-3]);

--Revelation 4:1, "AFTER these things..." (this is where that 1:19c is picking up, to thereafter describe [from 4:1 and forward] "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"; whereas, the "things WHICH ARE" do not transpire in quickness [noun], but those unfold over much time instead ["what the Spirit saith to the churchES" (not merely to "the Church which is His body" either; and not merely to 7 local churches listed there)]



I disagree. The passage under question is speaking of the things/events just described, and grasping the "timing" issues, even considering 13:5-7 and Dan7:25,27 informs us that the events described in that passage ONLY take place 42mos / 3.5y before Christ's return to the earth [NOT our Rapture], not that the beast only exists on the earth for that length of time, mind you, but that that length of time/set of time-period is when he is "given" to be allowed to do certain/particular things (mentioned in these passages; like "made war with the saints, and PREVAILED AGAINST THEM")

Rev 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”


Q. Are those that die in Christ today blessed and do they rest from their labor or only those in the future are blessed?

 

[Noose]

Nope. I told you then, as now, you need to read the WHOLE chapter to get the context of the passage.

You went Biblical grocery shopping. Picked up part of a passage, put it in your cart because it fit your works to maintain salvation souffle you are always cooking up, then bypassed the other TRUE ingredients that make your souffle flatter than a pancake, and went to another heretical aisle picking and choosing, instead of taking the WHOLE counsel of God.

1 Cor 15 does not start from verse 12, it starts from verse 1. To understand the context of that chapter, you can not start reading from vs 12, vs 1-3 already sets the tone and carries the context. I'll break it down for you sentence by sentence:

1 Cor 15:
1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

1. Paul had already preached the gospel. The true gospel so he is writing to remind them
2. They had believed in the true gospel
3. That true gospel only saves if one holds firmly (perseverance) to what had already been preached to them
4. It seems people in Corinth had not held firmly to true gospel that they heard and had believed initially so they started believing in other false gospels.
5. From the rest of the verses (vs 12-..) we see that they had started believing something different from what they were taught and thus they did not believe in resurrection of Christ. This doesn't change the fact that Paul had already preached to them the true gospel and they believed it initially.

 

[PennEd]

1 Cor 15 does not start from verse 12, it starts from verse 1. To understand the context of that chapter, you can not start reading from vs 12, vs 1-3 already sets the tone and carries the context. I'll break it down for you sentence by sentence:

1 Cor 15:
1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

1. Paul had already preached the gospel. The true gospel so he is writing to remind them
2. They had believed in the true gospel
3. That true gospel only saves if one holds firmly (perseverance) to what had already been preached to them
4. It seems people in Corinth had not held firmly to true gospel that they heard and had believed initially so they started believing in other false gospels.
5. From the rest of the verses (vs 12-..) we see that they had started believing something different from what they were taught and thus they did not believe in resurrection of Christ. This doesn't change the fact that Paul had already preached to them the true gospel and they believed it initially.

Nope. Doesn't matter how hard you want to cling to YOU keeping yourself saved, or repeat the same refrain.

Verse 2 doesn't sit there all by itself. sorry to deflate your works to stay saved souffle, but please TRUST FULLY in Jesus Christ, and NOT yourself!

 

[Noose]

Nope. Doesn't matter how hard you want to cling to YOU keeping yourself saved, or repeat the same refrain.

Verse 2 doesn't sit there all by itself. sorry to deflate your works to stay saved souffle, but please TRUST FULLY in Jesus Christ, and NOT yourself!

I'm not clinging to anything, i just read what Paul wrote without even interpreting anything.

Do you have any other arguments? the initial one has no legs to stand on.

Name calling is not an argument.

 

[PennEd]

I'm not clinging to anything, i just read what Paul wrote without even interpreting anything.

Do you have any other arguments? the initial one has no legs to stand on.

Name calling is not an argument.

Do I have any other arguments than the Word? Sure. But of what value?
As I stated earlier. Paul explains just what he meant by believing in vain several verses later. You reject that Word. Where else to go?

 

[Noose]

Do I have any other arguments than the Word? Sure. But of what value?
As I stated earlier. Paul explains just what he meant by believing in vain several verses later. You reject that Word. Where else to go?

Paul was not explaining what he meant by believing in vain because 'believing in vain' was never the topic of his letter.
Paul was telling them that they'd be believing in vain if they let go of the original teachings which they had initially believed.

 

[PennEd]

Paul was not explaining what he meant by believing in vain because 'believing in vain' was never the topic of his letter.
Paul was telling them that they'd be believing in vain if they let go of the original teachings which they had initially believed.

Nope. Doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It’s not true just because you want it to be.

 

[NayborBear]

I believe angels know how to express themselves in a clear way using human languages.

'from now on'/from this moment on/ from this time onward - these phrases mean one and only one thing, from this moment on, which means from the moment John penned those very words because John was instructed to write them down real time.


There's another phrase that can be used to mean future, 'from that moment onward'/from that time onward/

And, it is said that the people that die in Christ from that moment onward are blessed, so how is it not the church era? How is this yet future? are those who die in christ now not blessed?

To be perfectly honest with ya?
I can't make heads nor tails out of devinewatermarks responses.
And the more he responds in the fashion he responds?
Am having my doubts he does either.

It "sounds" like he is trying to negate, by putting in a box, the "eternalness" of God's words.
"Though heaven and earth may pass away, My words shall never pass away."

Prolly jez me though!

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Amen."

I appeal to you in love. One way we can know that you are misapplying these Scriptures is the huge swaths of Scriptures they cause you to ignore, such as the many I have referenced which such doctrine opposes. I believe in eternal security but not if one trifles with the warnings of Scripture. As Bonhoeffer said, "If we are not willing to hear the Word of God against ourselves we will never be true servants of God."

It may seem odd to you but one way Christians display this false ideology is with their own bodies. They are free to continue in the works of the sinful nature. One consequence is very many are overweight. Why? Gluttony. Whereas the slave of Christ who has offered his body as a living sacrifice has lost his own life and denies himself and eats by faith, whereby not overeating b/c that is never God's will (and only he who does God's will will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), members of a religion are free to eat what and when they want since they haven't denied themselves, and for many, it becomes compulsive, even demonic, and they are enslaved... in Egypt. But Jesus came to free us! They have not "ceased from their own works." But instead, if you wish to take that Scripture your referenced in context, what is being talked about leading up to that is the warning that we not repeat the error of Israel. "Today, if you hear His voice (and that's how His sheep live and walk, on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God) do not harden your hearts" as they did. The Sabbath-rest for the people of God in the Kingdom of God is glorious. He is King, our king. That makes us kings. A kingdom of priests! Which is what God was always after.

And I'm just referencing one of the many acts of the sinful nature that true disciples of Christ are not permitted to go on in and don't since they have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Living in the Spirit with Christ as their head, they can't do those things. The wolves have to stand back from His rod and staff. Which leads in to what faith really is, since most of your list is predicated on the word believe.

We see in Matthew's Gospel, 21:22 I think it is, but that whatever we ask for in prayer, believing, we receive. That's one example. Also, in 1 John, that anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and that no one who is born of God sins (dead to sin, just like your list says!) Believe means to adhere and cleave to Jesus. That's why I'm talking about this life of faith which depends on Him, which stays near Him, which even places Jesus before the believer: I have set the Lord before Me continually. We wait upon Him all the day! Seeking His Kingdom and righteousness first, He is faithful to add everything unto us that the pagans run after. And that is our testimony since 1996. He has been awesome.

Wanna know how to distill the whole Bible down? We can't go on sinning. (That's why we needed a better sacrifice that could free us, instead of just forgiving us.) And the things we do have to be done at God's direction. Those 2 points are true to Jesus and for us are death and resurrection; passing through the Red sea then getting the pillar of fire. Can you see it? It's glorious when you see what the shadow was from! This simplicity in Christ is what Churchianity kept from me. I never heard the Gospel of the Kingdom so I never had the government of God over me. I hadn't taken His yoke upon me. I couldn't follow in His steps as Peter tells us to, the first point of which is "He committed no sin". Everything Jesus taught is about what we do.

Perfect Bible distillation Scripture: "Obey My voice and I will be your God and you will be My people and walk only in the way that I command you so that it may go well with you." Simple. But because it's not so simple to do ("difficult the way") religion had to make up silly rules and doctrines to widen the gate (a lot of times for money) but it ultimately leads to destruction. I don't want them destroyed.

The prophet is a fool and the spiritual man is insane because of the greatness of your sin and great enmity, it is written. The Bible is totally up to date. These signs shall follow them that believe.

 

[PennEd]

So the OP just made a lengthly post telling us that if OUR BMI is too high we can lose our salvation.

Then even HE must have thought how silly that sounded and deleted it. But not before I read it.

That's right. He believes if you are overweight you can lose your salvation.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

To be perfectly honest with ya?
I can't make heads nor tails out of devinewatermarks responses.
And the more he responds in the fashion he responds?
Am having my doubts he does either.

It "sounds" like he is trying to negate, by putting in a box, the "eternalness" of God's words.
"Though heaven and earth may pass away, My words shall never pass away."

Prolly jez me though!

Not jez you, you know that.

 

[PennEd]

So the OP just made a lengthly post telling us that if OUR BMI is too high we can lose our salvation.

Then even HE must have thought how silly that sounded and deleted it. But not before I read it.

That's right. He believes if you are overweight you can lose your salvation.

Ooh sorry. He mustv'e thought. "Let's go for it!" And reposted.

 

[PennEd]

I appeal to you in love. One way we can know that you are misapplying these Scriptures is the huge swaths of Scriptures they cause you to ignore, such as the many I have referenced which such doctrine opposes. I believe in eternal security but not if one trifles with the warnings of Scripture. As Bonhoeffer said, "If we are not willing to hear the Word of God against ourselves we will never be true servants of God."

It may seem odd to you but one way Christians display this false ideology is with their own bodies. They are free to continue in the works of the sinful nature. One consequence is very many are overweight. Why? Gluttony. Whereas the slave of Christ who has offered his body as a living sacrifice has lost his own life and denies himself and eats by faith, whereby not overeating b/c that is never God's will (and only he who does God's will will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), members of a religion are free to eat what and when they want since they haven't denied themselves, and for many, it becomes compulsive, even demonic, and they are enslaved... in Egypt. But Jesus came to free us! They have not "ceased from their own works." But instead, if you wish to take that Scripture your referenced in context, what is being talked about leading up to that is the warning that we not repeat the error of Israel. "Today, if you hear His voice (and that's how His sheep live and walk, on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God) do not harden your hearts" as they did. The Sabbath-rest for the people of God in the Kingdom of God is glorious. He is King, our king. That makes us kings. A kingdom of priests! Which is what God was always after.

And I'm just referencing one of the many acts of the sinful nature that true disciples of Christ are not permitted to go on in and don't since they have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Living in the Spirit with Christ as their head, they can't do those things. The wolves have to stand back from His rod and staff. Which leads in to what faith really is, since most of your list is predicated on the word believe.

We see in Matthew's Gospel, 21:22 I think it is, but that whatever we ask for in prayer, believing, we receive. That's one example. Also, in 1 John, that anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God and that no one who is born of God sins (dead to sin, just like your list says!) Believe means to adhere and cleave to Jesus. That's why I'm talking about this life of faith which depends on Him, which stays near Him, which even places Jesus before the believer: I have set the Lord before Me continually. We wait upon Him all the day! Seeking His Kingdom and righteousness first, He is faithful to add everything unto us that the pagans run after. And that is our testimony since 1996. He has been awesome.

Wanna know how to distill the whole Bible down? We can't go on sinning. (That's why we needed a better sacrifice that could free us, instead of just forgiving us.) And the things we do have to be done at God's direction. Those 2 points are true to Jesus and for us are death and resurrection; passing through the Red sea then getting the pillar of fire. Can you see it? It's glorious when you see what the shadow was from! This simplicity in Christ is what Churchianity kept from me. I never heard the Gospel of the Kingdom so I never had the government of God over me. I hadn't taken His yoke upon me. I couldn't follow in His steps as Peter tells us to, the first point of which is "He committed no sin". Everything Jesus taught is about what we do.

Perfect Bible distillation Scripture: "Obey My voice and I will be your God and you will be My people and walk only in the way that I command you so that it may go well with you." Simple. But because it's not so simple to do ("difficult the way") religion had to make up silly rules and doctrines to widen the gate (a lot of times for money) but it ultimately leads to destruction. I don't want them destroyed.

The prophet is a fool and the spiritual man is insane because of the greatness of your sin and great enmity, it is written. The Bible is totally up to date. These signs shall follow them that believe.

Ah! So it’s me misapplying all 101 Scriptures I posted and not YOU misapplying what you posted. Got it!

 

[NayborBear]

Rev 14:13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”


Q. Are those that die in Christ today blessed and do they rest from their labor or only those in the future are blessed?

The "problem/s", I see in arguing, I'm sorry (ahem) discussing with people like this? Whether they realize it, or not? Because, it seems fairly evident they don't believe it themselves.

They don't, or can't, or are willingly ignorant, or, have been at it so long, as to have neglected the simple fact that "being OBEDIENT", in itself "is a WORK!"
Cuz, being "obedient", don't come "naturally!" Being DISOBEDIENT does! But, obedient doesn't!

One has to WORK at being obedient! But, they can't admit it! Poor souls/minds/hearts/spirits!

Cuz, that would blow their "No WORKS for salvation agenda?", RIGHT OUTTA THE WATER!

Tis their narrow mindedness, that has caused their blindness. Or perhaps, it's orneriness, or, just plain meanness! Yet, blindness, just the same!