Which gospel?

[Noose]

I covered that in my Post #209 (Page 12), where I wrote about the "BEMA of Christ" (2Cor5; see also 1Cor3:10-15); and in that post I had also written:

"[note: the ABOVE ^ passage is with regard to "REWARD" not "to obtain SALVATION"]

"There are something like 7 (?) or so "judgments" in Scripture..."

[i.e. the idea of a "general judgment" (a one-time event only) is not what Scripture reveals, but is what "amill-teachings," and the like, have insisted, due to their completely disregarding the issues of "chronology"... (you know, the UNIMPORTANT words ppl tend to gloss past!)]

...perhaps you missed seeing what I wrote there, as it was toward the bottom of that post.



I covered what I see that Rev22 verse as entailing.

I also never stated that "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as in, *WHEN IT HAS EXISTED*!)] (its various MEMBERS of the Body) come through the "Bema seat" of Christ all with the SAME "reward" or whatever. (Again, this "Bema" of Christ is ONLY for "the Church which is His body," is not the same as the other "judgment" occurrences [I just said there is something like 7 total distinct ones], and that the "Bema" of Christ is NOT for the purpose of determining/granting ETERNAL LIFE/SALVATION/JUSTIFICATION/etc... but for "reward" [or "loss" of same] (for the things done through/by means of the body).

2 Cor 5:9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Like i said, it doesn't need a complicated answer. All men are judged according to their works (deeds) and not their thoughts. So, salvation is not about thoughts but what you do matters.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

2 Cor 5:9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Like i said, it doesn't need a complicated answer. All men are judged according to their works (deeds) and not their thoughts. So, salvation is not about thoughts but what you do matters.

Are you saying that the ppl at this "Bema" of Christ are there for the purpose of determining/granting salvation/eternal life/justification/etc to them, at that point (based on "what they did"... whether it measured up)??

If you are saying that, I am saying that is NOT the purpose of the "Bema" of Christ.

This "Bema" of Christ is for the specific "WE/EACH[of US]" of this passage (and the related passages) which is TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not "all men, of all times" [i.e. saved and unsaved; OT era ppl and NT era ppl, every single person whose ever lived... no--that is NOT what THIS setting is COVERING (OTHER "judgments" at differing/other "times/settings" are for THOSE!)]).

I'm not saying "the Church which is His body [Eph1:20-23!]" [and its "MEMBERS" in particular] won't be present for this "Bema" of Christ (for the purpose of "reward"); I'm simply saying that it is not for the purpose of determining/granting salvation/eternal life/justification to them... (if that's what you are suggesting). We already possess that before we arrive before the Bema of Christ!

 

[Noose]

Are you saying that the ppl at this "Bema" of Christ are there for the purpose of determining/granting salvation/eternal life/justification/etc to them, at that point (based on "what they did"... whether it measured up)??

If you are saying that, I am saying that is NOT the purpose of the "Bema" of Christ.

This "Bema" of Christ is for the specific "WE/EACH[of US]" of this passage (and the related passages) which is TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (not "all men, of all times" [i.e. saved and unsaved; OT era ppl and NT era ppl, every single person whose ever lived... no--that is NOT what THIS setting is COVERING (OTHER "judgments" at differing/other "times/settings" are for THOSE!)]).

I'm not saying "the Church which is His body [Eph1:20-23!]" [and its "MEMBERS" in particular] won't be present for this "Bema" of Christ (for the purpose of "reward"); I'm simply saying that it is not for the purpose of determining/granting salvation/eternal life/justification to them... (if that's what you are suggesting). We already possess that before we arrive before the Bema of Christ!

This is the purpose.

Rom 2:
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. 11For God does not show favoritism.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

This is the purpose.

Rom 2:
5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. 11For God does not show favoritism.

AMEN. Glory to God. Down with the doctrines of men that attempt to nullify the Scriptures. Look out! A man is taking down the Asherah poles and breaking their sacred stones to pieces!
The "real" Jesus was pretty rough on the 7 churches in Revelation wasn't He?
Real grace is given to produce a righteous and holy life lived by faith. We don't "get in by works" - No! But having gotten in, He works through His sanctified vessels. Sadly, though, there are still vessels in the house for dishonor.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Keep on wrecking those "high places" brother

 

[PennEd]

AMEN. Glory to God. Down with the doctrines of men that attempt to nullify the Scriptures. Look out! A man is taking down the Asherah poles and breaking their sacred stones to pieces!
The "real" Jesus was pretty rough on the 7 churches in Revelation wasn't He?
Real grace is given to produce a righteous and holy life lived by faith. We don't "get in by works" - No! But having gotten in, He works through His sanctified vessels. Sadly, though, there are still vessels in the house for dishonor.

Yeah! And let's not forget those vessels that had SOME Holy Spirit, but didn't fill up the Spiritual tank all the way, and ran out!

Gonna be rough on them too I'm sure you think.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a

No one is denying that.

But "the Church which is His body," and the "saints" of all other time periods (neither!) will be judged at the final "Great White throne judgment" (time-slot) which is for "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times. Everyone else (that is, all "saints" of all times, will have been "resurrected" well before that point [or having entered the MK age as "still-living" saints who "SHALL NEVER DIE" according to Jesus [Who said, "I AM *THE* RESURRECTION AND *THE* LIFE"] said so in John 11:25-[for the former]-26[for the latter of these two phrases] "



And I sure am glad to hear the OP state that we are not saved/given salvation "by means of works"...

I am not arguing against what Romans 8:2-4 says,

2 For the Law of the Spirit OF LIFE in Christ Jesus has set you [/me] free from the Law of sin and death. 3 For of the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent His Son in likeness of sin of flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteousness *of* the Law should be fulfilled in us [note: not *BY* us] not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.




[this ^ then is referring to "Sin" (covered in Rom5:12-chpt 8 end); not "sinS" (covered in Rom1-5:11), which are distinguished]


Romans 7:1-4 -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

No one is denying that.

But "the Church which is His body," and the "saints" of all other time periods (neither!) will be judged at the final "Great White throne judgment" (time-slot) which is for "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times. Everyone else (that is, all "saints" of all times, will have been "resurrected" well before that point [or having entered the MK age as "still-living" saints who "SHALL NEVER DIE" according to Jesus [Who said, "I AM *THE* RESURRECTION AND *THE* LIFE"] said so in John 11:25-[for the former]-26[for the latter of these two phrases] "



And I sure am glad to hear the OP state that we are not saved/given salvation "by means of works"...

I am not arguing against what Romans 8:2-4 says,

2 For the Law of the Spirit OF LIFE in Christ Jesus has set you [/me] free from the Law of sin and death. 3 For of the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent His Son in likeness of sin of flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteousness *of* the Law should be fulfilled in us [note: not *BY* us] not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.




[this ^ then is referring to "Sin" (covered in Rom5:12-chpt 8 end); not "sinS" (covered in Rom1-5:11), which are distinguished]


Romans 7:1-4 -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

We sure don’t get grafted into the cultivated olive tree by works, but nothing can be more clear than the fact that we as branches can get broken off just as the natural branches that have. In fact the Lord tells us there to be afraid.
Continuing in Romans 11:22 “Consider therefore the kindness AND severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you PROVIDED that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
Nothing could be more clear. The warning to us believers there in Romans 11 reminds me of Jesus’ command that we remain in His love on the condition of obedience and the warning TO US found in 1 Cor. 10:1-12 or so. God will do to us just as He did to those whose bodies fell in the wilderness if we repeat their folly. That’s why there are 5 parenthetical warnings in the book of Hebrews to us Spirit baptized believers.
I’m sure professor book worm will try to gut these Scriptures again, vainly attempting to turn us into good Laodiceans, but I’m glad that God Most High has hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and has revealed them unto babes. By grace, a fool for Christ

 

[Noose]

No one is denying that.

But "the Church which is His body," and the "saints" of all other time periods (neither!) will be judged at the final "Great White throne judgment" (time-slot) which is for "the dead [/unsaved]" of all times. Everyone else (that is, all "saints" of all times, will have been "resurrected" well before that point [or having entered the MK age as "still-living" saints who "SHALL NEVER DIE" according to Jesus [Who said, "I AM *THE* RESURRECTION AND *THE* LIFE"] said so in John 11:25-[for the former]-26[for the latter of these two phrases] "



And I sure am glad to hear the OP state that we are not saved/given salvation "by means of works"...

I am not arguing against what Romans 8:2-4 says,

2 For the Law of the Spirit OF LIFE in Christ Jesus has set you [/me] free from the Law of sin and death. 3 For of the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent His Son in likeness of sin of flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the righteousness *of* the Law should be fulfilled in us [note: not *BY* us] not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.




[this ^ then is referring to "Sin" (covered in Rom5:12-chpt 8 end); not "sinS" (covered in Rom1-5:11), which are distinguished]


Romans 7:1-4 -

1 Or are you ignorant brothers (for I speak to those knowing the law), that the law rules over the man for as long as the time he is alive? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to the living husband; but if the husband should die, she is cleared from the law of the husband. 3 So then, if she is to another man, the husband being alive, she will be called an adulteress; but if the husband should die, she is free from the law, so as for her not to be an adulteress, having been to another man.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have been put to death to the Law through [/by means of] the body of Christ, for you to belong to another, to the One having been raised out from the dead, so that we should bear fruit to God.

If judgement is according to works/deeds, then don't preach against works.

I know the bible says we are not saved by our own works but love for others is not our own works but the works of the one who sent us:

Matt 25:40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

See?, love for others is Jesus' works not our own.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

We sure don’t get grafted into the cultivated olive tree by works, but nothing can be more clear than the fact that we as branches can get broken off just as the natural branches that have. In fact the Lord tells us there to be afraid.
Continuing in Romans 11:22 “Consider therefore the kindness AND severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you PROVIDED that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
Nothing could be more clear. The warning to us believers there in Romans 11 reminds me of Jesus’ command that we remain in His love on the condition of obedience and the warning TO US found in 1 Cor. 10:1-12 or so. God will do to us just as He did to those whose bodies fell in the wilderness if we repeat their folly. That’s why there are 5 parenthetical warnings in the book of Hebrews to us Spirit baptized believers.
I’m sure professor book worm will try to gut these Scriptures again, vainly attempting to turn us into good Laodiceans, but I’m glad that God Most High has hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and has revealed them unto babes. By grace, a fool for Christ

Mock if you wish (that doesn't concern me in the least)... but know that Romans 9-11's overall context is concerning "nations" ("Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nationS]"); take your highlighter and yellow every reference to "Israel" and "Gentiles" (and any pronouns referencing these) and see that this SECTION of Paul's epistle is filled with that... (so is the first three chpts of the epistle, going back and forth covering each).

The passage in question (you are referencing) is not about "loss of [or forfeiting] salvation" ("the Olive Tree" does not represent "Jesus" or "Salvation" or "eternal life" and the like...)

In view of this, here is a post [at least for the readers who are interested in grasping this ]

[quoting old post]

I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):

[quoting GV Wigram]

"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."

[also]

"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."

--George V Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041

____________

[quoting that other article by GV Wigram]

"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would [/willed to]. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."

-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282

[end quoting; bold and underline mine; bracketed inserts mine; parenthesis original]

[end quoting old posts]

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Mock if you wish (that doesn't concern me in the least)... but know that Romans 9-11's overall context is concerning "nations" ("Israel [singular nation]" and "the Gentiles [plural nationS]"); take your highlighter and yellow every reference to "Israel" and "Gentiles" (and any pronouns referencing these) and see that this SECTION of Paul's epistle is filled with that... (so is the first three chpts of the epistle, going back and forth covering each).

The passage in question (you are referencing) is not about "loss of [or forfeiting] salvation" ("the Olive Tree" does not represent "Jesus" or "Salvation" or "eternal life" and the like...)

In view of this, here is a post [at least for the readers who are interested in grasping this ]

[quoting old post]

I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):

[quoting GV Wigram]

"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."

[also]

"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."

--George V Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041

____________

[quoting that other article by GV Wigram]

"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would [/willed to]. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."

-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282

[end quoting; bold and underline mine; bracketed inserts mine; parenthesis original]

[end quoting old posts]

Called it. I've never seen such a holey Bible as the wise man and scholar has.

Romans 11 means just what it sounds like it means when you read it. 1 Cor. 10 means just what it says. The 5 warnings in Hebrews to Spirit baptized believers mean just what it sounds like they mean. Ananias and Saphira. The 7 churches of Revelation. The branches that get cut off from the Vine. When Scripture says we can believe in vain, the 40 Biblical examples I gave in my video of people who are saved but lose their salvation. Who needs a scholar or a commentary if the Holy Spirit is present: "His annointing teaches you about all things." Not books. "He will guide you in to all truth."

What power do you have? The glory of God? Tell us about it. He brought you out of wickedness into a life of righteousness? Tell us about it. Are you the head of your wife as Christ is the Head of the church? Then boast in what God has done in her, making her beautiful without being frightened by any fear. By the grace of God I happen to know the Scriptures AND the power of God. I'll not boast as Paul did, but if you like I will. My original testimony is likely enough boasting in what Christ has done in me.

Did you get your breakfast today by the Spirit in faith, or did you get it by your soul? Was it because it was what you wanted, thought and felt or were you able to do it to the glory of God because Christ Jesus was your Head in that act? Do you deny your soul, having lost your own life as a disciple of Jesus Christ or have you held on to your life?

Seriously. The Kingdom of God does not consist in all these words. It consists in power. Here, you and me; let's become like little children and just obey God and follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

Neither of us can afford to resist the Holy Spirit. Give glory to God. Tell us what He has done.

 

[stillness]

I was raised in church and a Christian family. I "accepted Jesus in to my heart" at the tender age of 5 and was baptized in water at the age of 8. I was a "good" boy all around - assured of having my sins forgiven and that I was going to Heaven because of what Jesus had done for me and because, of course, I believed in Him. Why else do you think we would go to church?
Well, puberty rolled around and I found my thrill. I was lost in lust though my church attendance never dwindled. Addicted to pornography, masturbation and fornication everyone still saw a nice young believer in Christ. When suddenly, God sovereignly put a passionate desire in me for His Word on 3/4/96 during my sophomore year in college and I began to see glorious and at times terrifying things that I never heard in all my years in church. One of the first things I saw was that I wasn't free to go on in my sins, not by trying not to but by faith. This ultimately brought me to the precipice of suicide by the fall of '99 cause I just could not stop. Well, thank God that I was a part of a fellowship that understood that Jesus said we would cast out demons and that's what they did with me. Now, no longer under compulsion, I was free to appropriate by faith what Jesus had done for me and on 2/20/2000 I was baptized in water and received the circumcision of my heart, as we see in Colossians 2. I might add, God showed up at that service and 300 people simultaneously began crying when I came up out of the water because of His presence. It was powerful. So then, the Lord Jesus began to reveal His Kingdom to me. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit and began waiting upon Him all the day. Jesus actually became Lord over my life and I was free to offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice. His Sabbath-Rest has been glorious for me and my family and He truly is the Prince of Peace. "The sons of God are those who are being led by the Spirit of God," Romans 8:14, and as is previously stated in that chapter, He has taken me from a life lived based on my soul (what I want, think and feel) to a life directed by His Spirit and not according to the sinful nature. We have to deny our souls, take up our cross and follow Him. David said in Psalm 16, "I have set the Lord before me continually". In religion, I had the language of following Jesus but not the reality. I was what the Bible refers to as a mocker. The Greek word for an actor is (basically) hypocrite.
Part of becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ is that the church no longer accepts me if I state any of this. It's ok if I keep my mouth shut but if I begin to state things like the Greek word translated as "forgiveness" in our New Testaments is the Greek word "aphesis" which means freedom, leadership begins to frown, especially when Jesus said that everyone who sins is a slave of sin and that a slave has not permanent place in the household but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free you are free indeed.
I did not believe the Gospel of the Kingdom, the one Jesus preached, when I was growing up. But I did believe "a" gospel. And if you want to get to the root of it, you have to go all the way back to Genesis 3. Satan has never had to change his tactics because they have always worked: "Did God really say that?" "You shall not surely die." "You shall be like Him" and you are also going to disobey Him the whole way. Religion had told me that I was always going to be a rebel against God and remain in sin but also that when I see Him I would be like Him for I would see Him as He is. Furthermore, religion had taught me nothing about the Kingdom of God. I thought that just meant heaven. I didn't know it meant the Way Jesus walked, from above the sun. 1 John 2 reveals to us that we must walk as Jesus walked and He confessed that He did nothing on His own initiative but only what the Father told Him. So the first "gospel" I believed in didn't require my death and resurrection in to a new life. See Romans 6 about the death. We must be born of water and the Spirit. It was formerly hidden from my eyes that the 4 gospels explicitly state that Jesus came to baptize us with the Holy Spirit - that's how John introduces Him and if you are a student of Scripture you know you need to take special attention when God starts repeating things as He does with "If you eye causes you to sin, gouge it out for it is better for you to enter life having one eye than having 2 eyes and be cast in to Hell" which He repeats in Matthew. See, that formerly didn't make any sense to me when I believed the contemporary American version of the gospel.
So when I hear people say "the gospel" in this 21st century, I tend to cringe because I know it is not likely that it is the Gospel of the Kingdom but rather the one I believed growing up. I was left in my sins, left in Egypt. Pharoah still had me in bondage. I had no idea what the pillar of cloud and of fire signified in my life and thought the Promised Land was heaven. (Not sure how the Philistines and all the 'ites would be there, but we didn't think about that.) Anyway, we desperately need a revolution. There is a different gospel, just as Paul stated in 2 Cor. 11, and frightfully, it is accompanied by a different Jesus and spirit. My Jesus when I was growing up never would have done that to Ananias and Sapphira and there was certainly no danger of Him ever vomiting me out of His mouth. I had the gentle Jesus, meek and mild.
Because the Gospel of the Kingdom is different from the modern gospel in this country, my family and I are not welcome in church and that's not right. A modern gospel has caused the salt to lose its savor and the meat is rotting. We do not need to point our fingers at the world. We need to point them at ourselves and repent and lose our religious prejudices and humbly accept what is written. It took me a while to lose my religion. It had a power and I could not see. The Bible was closed to me and hard and my life was messy. Jesus was not head over all things to me. I was. And I make a terrible god. "No one who is born of God sins but He who was born of God keeps him and the Evil One does not touch him." The Bible isn't complicated. Religion is and the world is reeling.

I am in agrement with you except for caling babes in Christ hipocrites, simply because hipocrites hide their sin like the religious leaders who opposed Jessus. Those who remain babes in Christ remain quarelsome and divided but they dmit the condition they are in. Appart from Jesus we are not for real, but admiting this frees us from hiding in hipocrisy. Also you seeing them this way prevents reconciliations and causes ofence and could even prevent you from gooing on to perfection. Paul adressed such believers as babes who were divided because of lliving after the flesh. Even being divided between catholic and protestant promotes dualistic thinking of Im rifht and your wrong, when none of us are right appart from being in the unity of the Spirit of God. What you came to see is that few are permitted to go on to perfection. "Strive to enter in at the straight gate, for many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able." and there is more than letting go of an eartly treasure involved, as paul explained "if i give all my goods to the poor and have not Love I am nothing." The number of those "Called, chosen, and Faitful" to rule with Him will be fulfilled. "Many are called but few are chosen." And as you discovwred, there is nothing you can do to help God with the trouble we are in other than, my favorite verse saying it best. "Rejoice always, continuing in prayer, giving thanks in everything, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

I am in agrement with you except for caling babes in Christ hipocrites, simply because hipocrites hide their sin like the religious leaders who opposed Jessus. Those who remain babes in Christ remain quarelsome and divided but they dmit the condition they are in. Appart from Jesus we are not for real, but admiting this frees us from hiding in hipocrisy. Also you seeing them this way prevents reconciliations and causes ofence and could even prevent you from gooing on to perfection. Paul adressed such believers as babes who were divided because of lliving after the flesh. Even being divided between catholic and protestant promotes dualistic thinking of Im rifht and your wrong, when none of us are right appart from being in the unity of the Spirit of God. What you came to see is that few are permitted to go on to perfection. "Strive to enter in at the straight gate, for many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able." and there is more than letting go of an eartly treasure involved, as paul explained "if i give all my goods to the poor and have not Love I am nothing." The number of those "Called, chosen, and Faitful" to rule with Him will be fulfilled. "Many are called but few are chosen." And as you discovwred, there is nothing you can do to help God with the trouble we are in other than, my favorite verse saying it best. "Rejoice always, continuing in prayer, giving thanks in everything, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

Thank you, sir.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

If judgement is according to works/deeds, then don't preach against works.

You're not a very careful reader. Wasn't it THIS thread in which I provided passages pertaining to "the Church which is His body" and the "good works God prepared-beforehand [G4282] that we [the Church which is His body] should walk in them"... " Yes... I did post that.

I know the bible says we are not saved by our own works but love for others is not our own works but the works of the one who sent us:

Praise the Lord, you are now expressing that "we are not saved by our own works". Amen.

No one has said that the believer is to sit atop a mountain doing nothing whatsoever.

But "works" is not what "saves" nor what "maintains [as in, retains]" our salvation. THAT is to count His blood as being ordinary... like bulls and goats that could never "take away sins" Heb10:4... in fact, is/was "IMPOSSIBLE".


So, no one is saying that we, "the Church which is His body," are not to love people:

1 Thessalonians 3:12 -
"And may the Lord make you to increase and to abound in love toward one another, and toward all, just as also we toward you"

1 Peter 2:17 -
"Honor everyone: love the brotherhood, fear God, Honor the king."

Romans 5:5 -
"And hope does not make us ashamed, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, the One having been given to us." [whereby we are "SEALED unto the day of redemption"-Eph4:30 and see also Eph1:13-14]


Hebrews 10:29 -
"How much worse punishment do you think will he deserve, the one having trampled upon the Son of God, and having esteemed ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and having insulted the Spirit of grace?"

[recall ^ , "if one died for all, then were all dead. And that he died for all, that THEY WHICH LIVE[/B]..." (meaning, not *all* "LIVE" [only those spoken of in the passage I provided: 1John5:9-12 -- see that post again, Post #160 - https://christianchat.com/threads/which-gospel.188731/post-4089385 )... no one can "live unto Him" until they have His "LIFE"--so this is not a matter of "live unto Him IN ORDER TO *GET* eternal life" (nor to "maintain [as in, retain] it")])

Matt 25:40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

See?, love for others is Jesus' works not our own.

Again, we are called to love all.

But that is not what the context of the verse you are pulling out is speaking of... It is speaking of the Gentiles/nations who will be existing in the future, specific, limited time-period (leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth, FOR the MK age), DURING WHICH TIME (which will be a time of GREAT DECEPTION, etc), for them to "bless/aid/help" the SPECIFIC PPL He is here calling "the least of these My brethren" (not speaking of "all ppl everywhere, like my passages above ^ ARE speaking of)… the SPECIFIC persons (of the trib years) who will be bringing a particular message (of "INVITATION" to the MK age that will be, at that time, VERY-SOON-TO-ARRIVE), and these bringing this particular msg will be the believing remnant of Israel (the "YE shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake" ppl, DURING the trib yrs), to the point that TO DO SO will put oneself AT GREAT RISK to THEMSELVES.
(THIS passage is not expressing [as other passages] "to love everyone, everywhere, all over the place!" but a VERY SPECIFIC group/set of people, at a very specific time period, who will be carrying a very specific message...)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When Scripture says we can believe in vain,

To "believe in vain" is explained further on down in the passage (to pull a verse out from its context is a sure way to be easily led astray [from TRUTH]); to "believe in vain" is: to LEAVE OFF the VITAL ASPECT of "His Resurrection" (apart from that [meaning, LEAVING OFF THAT VITAL TRUTH/aspect!], one IS NOT SAVED/has NO SALVATION!)

[they were rubbing elbows with those who blvd there IS NO RESURRECTION--but APART from Jesus' RESURRECTION, our faith "IS IN VAIN"--THAT is the POINT being made in v.2, in view of this wider CONTEXT!]

the 40 Biblical examples I gave in my video of people who are saved but lose their salvation.

I'm saddened that the pastor or pastors or pastors/teachers you have had in your past have failed to teach you well, so that you have succumbed to all of these passages being wrenched from their true meaning.

I've gone through other ppl's such lists (in the past, here at CC and elsewhere and IRL), in order to show folks who present these as saying what you are saying they are saying (as in this thread), that they are not actually saying that! (the above is just one small example).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT ^ :

TDW: blvd

lol... "believed" [/blv'd] not "bouldevard" [/blvd]…

 

[stillness]

If

To "believe in vain" is explained further on down in the passage (to pull a verse out from its context is a sure way to be easily led astray [from TRUTH]); to "believe in vain" is: to LEAVE OFF the VITAL ASPECT of "His Resurrection" (apart from that [meaning, LEAVING OFF THAT VITAL TRUTH/aspect!], one IS NOT SAVED/has NO SALVATION!)

[they were rubbing elbows with those who blvd there IS NO RESURRECTION--but APART from Jesus' RESURRECTION, our faith "IS IN VAIN"--THAT is the POINT being made in v.2, in view of this wider CONTEXT!]



I'm saddened that the pastor or pastors or pastors/teachers you have had in your past have failed to teach you well, so that you have succumbed to all of these passages being wrenched from their true meaning.

I've gone through other ppl's such lists (in the past, here at CC and elsewhere and IRL), in order to show folks who present these as saying what you are saying they are saying (as in this thread), that they are not actually saying that! (the above is just one small example).

When your a friend of God you can take the word of God out of the context writen, as aplied to you personally. For example, when Jesus asked Peter the Third time, "Do you love me as a friend?.." Then "What is that to you, you follow me." That aplies.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

To "believe in vain" is explained further on down in the passage (to pull a verse out from its context is a sure way to be easily led astray [from TRUTH]); to "believe in vain" is: to LEAVE OFF the VITAL ASPECT of "His Resurrection" (apart from that [meaning, LEAVING OFF THAT VITAL TRUTH/aspect!], one IS NOT SAVED/has NO SALVATION!)

[they were rubbing elbows with those who blvd there IS NO RESURRECTION--but APART from Jesus' RESURRECTION, our faith "IS IN VAIN"--THAT is the POINT being made in v.2, in view of this wider CONTEXT!]



I'm saddened that the pastor or pastors or pastors/teachers you have had in your past have failed to teach you well, so that you have succumbed to all of these passages being wrenched from their true meaning.

I've gone through other ppl's such lists (in the past, here at CC and elsewhere and IRL), in order to show folks who present these as saying what you are saying they are saying (as in this thread), that they are not actually saying that! (the above is just one small example).

You didn't deal with what I said and yet you were still able to be condescending. Christlike. What I said was:

"Romans 11 means just what it sounds like it means when you read it. 1 Cor. 10 means just what it says. The 5 warnings in Hebrews to Spirit baptized believers mean just what it sounds like they mean. Ananias and Saphira. The 7 churches of Revelation. The branches that get cut off from the Vine. When Scripture says we can believe in vain, the 40 Biblical examples I gave in my video of people who are saved but lose their salvation. Who needs a scholar or a commentary if the Holy Spirit is present: "His annointing teaches you about all things." Not books. "He will guide you in to all truth."

What power do you have? The glory of God? Tell us about it. He brought you out of wickedness into a life of righteousness? Tell us about it. Are you the head of your wife as Christ is the Head of the church? Then boast in what God has done in her, making her beautiful without being frightened by any fear. By the grace of God I happen to know the Scriptures AND the power of God. I'll not boast as Paul did, but if you like I will. My original testimony is likely enough boasting in what Christ has done in me.

Did you get your breakfast today by the Spirit in faith, or did you get it by your soul? Was it because it was what you wanted, thought and felt or were you able to do it to the glory of God because Christ Jesus was your Head in that act? Do you deny your soul, having lost your own life as a disciple of Jesus Christ or have you held on to your life?

Seriously. The Kingdom of God does not consist in all these words. It consists in power. Here, you and me; let's become like little children and just obey God and follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

Neither of us can afford to resist the Holy Spirit. Give glory to God. Tell us what He has done."

You have an unhealthy desire to quibble where you think you might be able to. Answer the above.

 

[PennEd]

You didn't deal with what I said and yet you were still able to be condescending. Christlike. What I said was:

"Romans 11 means just what it sounds like it means when you read it. 1 Cor. 10 means just what it says. The 5 warnings in Hebrews to Spirit baptized believers mean just what it sounds like they mean. Ananias and Saphira. The 7 churches of Revelation. The branches that get cut off from the Vine. When Scripture says we can believe in vain, the 40 Biblical examples I gave in my video of people who are saved but lose their salvation. Who needs a scholar or a commentary if the Holy Spirit is present: "His annointing teaches you about all things." Not books. "He will guide you in to all truth."

What power do you have? The glory of God? Tell us about it. He brought you out of wickedness into a life of righteousness? Tell us about it. Are you the head of your wife as Christ is the Head of the church? Then boast in what God has done in her, making her beautiful without being frightened by any fear. By the grace of God I happen to know the Scriptures AND the power of God. I'll not boast as Paul did, but if you like I will. My original testimony is likely enough boasting in what Christ has done in me.

Did you get your breakfast today by the Spirit in faith, or did you get it by your soul? Was it because it was what you wanted, thought and felt or were you able to do it to the glory of God because Christ Jesus was your Head in that act? Do you deny your soul, having lost your own life as a disciple of Jesus Christ or have you held on to your life?

Seriously. The Kingdom of God does not consist in all these words. It consists in power. Here, you and me; let's become like little children and just obey God and follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

Neither of us can afford to resist the Holy Spirit. Give glory to God. Tell us what He has done."

You have an unhealthy desire to quibble where you think you might be able to. Answer the above.

Would really love to have a triple dog RED X For this awful post.

Time to post an avalanche of refuting Scripture against the judaizers.

 

[PennEd]

101 BIBLE REASONS PROVING
ETERNAL SECURITY

1. The believer has everlasting or eternal life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

2. The believer is born of God.

John 1:12-13: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

3. Christ will raise every believer up at the last day.

John 6:44-47: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

4. The believer has already passed from death unto life.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

5. The believer is not the object of God’s wrath.

John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

6. Believer are God’s sheep.

John 10:2-4: “But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.”

7. The believer will not listen to nor follow a stranger, but will flee from him.

John 10:5: “And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” (The stranger here is Satan and his false teachers.)

8. The believer is known of God.

John 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

9. The believer listens to the voice of the shepherd.

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

10. The believer is in Christ’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:28: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

11. The believer is in the Father’s hand and cannot be plucked out.

John 10:29: “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

12. The shepherd is charged with the responsibility of keeping the sheep.

John 10:11-14: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”

13. The believer is not condemned.

John 3:18: “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

14. The believer shall never thirst.

John 4:14: “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

15. The believer will keep Christ’s commandments.

John 14:23: “Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.”

16. The believer is secure because of Christ’s prayer.

John 17:9-12: “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee, Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

17. The believer shall never die.


John 11:26: “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”

18. The believer to be kept from the evil.

John 17:15: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”

Jesus prays that the believer may be kept from the Devil. Was this prayer answered?

19. The believer to be with Christ in glory.

John 17:24: “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”

20. The believer shall never hunger.

John 6:35: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”

21. The believer will in no wise be cast out (Not under any circumstance).

John 6:37: “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

22. Christ will not lose a single believer.

John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

23. Christ will raise up the believer at the last day.

John 6:38-40: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

24. Whosoever eats the bread of life shall never die.

John 6:51: “I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

25. Because the Holy Spirit abides in the believer forever.

John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”

26. Because it is the Father’s will that Christ should lose nothing.

John 6:39: “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

27. Because one cannot be unborn.

John 3:5: “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

28. The believer will follow Christ.

John 10:27: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” Following Christ, can one be lost? Have we any right to add to God’s Word by inserting if” to the passage?

29. The believers continue with God.

1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”

30. Because it is the believer’s faith that overcomes the world.

1 John 5:4: “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

31. Because of the record that God hath given.

1 John 5:10-11: “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

32. The believer is to be like Christ.

1 John 3:2: “Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

33. The believer is kept by the power of God.

1 Peter 1:5: “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

34. The man who believes shall be saved.

Acts 16:31: “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

35. The believer has been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

36. The believer is hid by God in Christ.

Colossians 3:3: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” Can the devil find that which God hides?

37. The believer shall not come into condemnation.

John 5:24: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”