Is God A Moral Monster?

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Whispered said:
The eating of the forbidden fruit, made Eve wise and like God, knowing the difference between good and evil, obedience and disobedience.
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God doesn't say this about the tree. ((Genesis 2:16))
Satan is the one who says this, while deceiving Woman. ((Genesis 3:5))

God doesn't say the man & the woman have become like Him -- He says the man has. ((Genesis 3:22))
and He doesn't say it when it is confessed that they have eaten, but after He pronounces judgement, when Adam changes the name of Woman to Eve. Genesis 3:22-24 speaks of 'the man' in singular, not plural.

the right interpretation fits the text. the right interpretation fits with what God says, not what Satan says.
 
Just to add from the previous page, the whole Bible is accurate, it is our understanding that is a bit iffy.
 
posthuman said:
that's for sure.

we can spend the next 50 years exploring ch. 2-4 without doing more than scratching the surface.
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You wouldn't be attempting to derail this whole thread would you posthuman?
 
PS said:
You wouldn't be attempting to derail this whole thread would you posthuman?
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When I said that the lie at Meribah is the same lie in the garden, Whispered said that isn't in Genesis. I'm showing her that it is. That takes time and effort, because Genesis 2-4 is extraordinarily deep and complex. That's all. This is still about the lie that God is a murderer who doesn't actually give mankind life - which is completely on topic - but it will still take some time to get to where the link is established, especially as most people have vey shallow and foolish interpretations of Genesis deeply ingrained in their thinking.

So, no, not really derail. the fall and the judgements and curses involved have to be rightly understood to rightly apply them to the topic at hand, is all. Besides, what topic is there in the Bible that doesn't connect to Genesis 2-4 in some way? ;)
 
posthuman said:
When I said that the lie at Meribah is the same lie in the garden, Whispered said that isn't in Genesis. I'm showing her that it is. That takes time and effort, because Genesis 2-4 is extraordinarily deep and complex. That's all. This is still about the lie that God is a murderer who doesn't actually give mankind life - which is completely on topic - but it will still take some time to get to where the link is established, especially as most people have vey shallow and foolish interpretations of Genesis deeply ingrained in their thinking.

So, no, not really derail. the fall and the judgements and curses involved have to be rightly understood to rightly apply them to the topic at hand, is all. Besides, what topic is there in the Bible that doesn't connect to Genesis 2-4 in some way? ;)
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See where it says new thread? Go for it. You of all people should have known about the God of Abraham being the true God.
 
Dibby53 said:
So, is God a moral monster? Lol.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to define our terms first. How do we define and commonly use the word "moral"?
"Monster".. I guess by this we mean something grotesque and horrible.
Is "God" only revelaed in the bible, or can he be known in other ways?


Of course, you have an idea what I think. Roughsoul, you started the thread. Maybe you would start by defining the terms as you understand them?
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A Biblical definition of moral would be the will of God. The opposite is immoral which is sin.

A atheist definition of moral is a agreed set of virtues by the majority's will. It is is a Civilizations agreed set of standards to live in peace as a Civilization.

Obviously God's morality is the only true definition or else there is no true definition of morality other than agreed upon virtues.

So to be moral is to be good to be immoral is bad. Thus a moral monster can only be moral if the monster is good. But we commonly attribute monster to something evil.

Moral monster is just a poor objection by the atheist to hate our God and to hate us for following such a God.

To call God a moral monster is for one to first admit God exists, and two that a objective standard of morality exists otherwise it was just the majority's will over the tribes of the promise land.

If they stuck with their worldview this objection would omit God and object that our faith comes from a ancient nations beliefs but then they must also be able justify to say their actions are evil when in the atheist worldview morality doesn't exist, only opinions and survival.

God is revealed through natural revelation, supernatural revelation, and Biblical revelation.
 
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Roughsoul1991 said:
...... If they stuck with their worldview this objection would omit God and object that our faith comes from a ancient nations beliefs, but then they must also be able justify to say their actions are evil when in the atheist worldview morality doesn't exist, only opinions and survival.

God is revealed through natural revelation, supernatural revelation, and Biblical revelation.
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I do not think atheists are correct in that opinion. Many a person will come to Christ not knowing anything about "ancient nations beliefs."
 
PS said:
See where it says new thread? Go for it. You of all people should have known about the God of Abraham being the true God.
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Why? The topic here is whether God is an immoral monster or not. The topic of Satan's lie is calling God an immoral monster. There can hardly be a better thread to discuss Genesis 3 in.
 
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posthuman said:
Why? The topic here is whether God is an immoral monster or not. The topic of Satan's lie is calling God an immoral monster. There can hardly be a better thread to discuss Genesis 3 in.
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God was not disobedient, so no immorality on God's part.
 
posthuman said:
so what exactly is the deception?
was Woman deceived into thinking God hadn't actually said don't eat from the tree of 'you shall surely die' ?
that doesn't seem to fit the narrative.
what specifically was she deceived about, then?
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The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

God told Adam. Not sure who told Eve because Eve knew about the command but Eve was created after Adam was given the command. Possibly Adam told Eve but wasn't very stern with the importance. But that is just assuming.

3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

This is Satan trying to deceive.

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

Eve definitely understood God's command.

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Then Satan lies and sprinkled in truth by adding you will know good and evil.

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom

Then Satan through a lie, deceiving, and temptation, tempted Eve and Eve knowing what God had said still bought into the lie that being like God was better.

She wasn't just naive and faultless.
 
PS said:
You can easily refute the atheists claims about GOD being evil by explaining the people followed false god's and the true God is the God of Abram as confirmed by Jesus. He also said the god of the Jews was the devil (John 8:44) so in that regard the atheists are right.

That does not stop them, or us, following the God of Abraham, the true God and Father of Jesus, and indeed our heavenly Father also.
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So what happened between Abraham and Jesus?
 
PS said:
You can easily refute the atheists claims about GOD being evil by explaining the people followed false god's and the true God is the God of Abram as confirmed by Jesus. He also said the god of the Jews was the devil (John 8:44) so in that regard the atheists are right.

That does not stop them, or us, following the God of Abraham, the true God and Father of Jesus, and indeed our heavenly Father also.
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Also John 8:44 doesn't imply that all throughout the OT from Abraham to Jesus they completely followed a false God. In fact even Jesus says his sheep will hear his voice which is speaking on the remnant of Jews who was following the God of Abraham.
 
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PS said:
You can easily refute the atheists claims about GOD being evil by explaining the people followed false god's and the true God is the God of Abram as confirmed by Jesus. He also said the god of the Jews was the devil (John 8:44) so in that regard the atheists are right.

That does not stop them, or us, following the God of Abraham, the true God and Father of Jesus, and indeed our heavenly Father also.
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John 8:44 is talking to some pharisees.... not saying god of the jews was the devil. Paul says He worships the God of his fathers.

You have no case to be made biblically.
 
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PS said:
God was not disobedient, so no immorality on God's part.
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Of course not. But what was Satan trying to imply when he spoke to Woman? what is the subtext of the lying words? what exactly is he deceiving her about, and why is he doing this - what is his motivation? what does he hope to accomplish or demonstrate by luring her into disobedience?

he tells her God has lied. he tells her God told her a tree brings death but that it actually makes her like Him - and He is Life. why does he do this? what is his motivation for this specific lie? what is the implication of it; what would it say about the character of God if it were true? what would it say about the life and existence Woman had? what would it imply about the actual tree of life?

what does he expect God to do to her? does he expect her to bring the fruit to Adam? why doesn't he go to Adam directly? or does he? who is watching all this, besides God? who do you es Satan want to make these implicit accusations clear to, and why?
 
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posthuman said:
Of course not. But what was Satan trying to imply when he spoke to Woman? what is the subtext of the lying words? what exactly is he deceiving her about, and why is he doing this - what is his motivation? what does he hope to accomplish or demonstrate by luring her into disobedience?

he tells her God has lied. he tells her God told her a tree brings death but that it actually makes her like Him - and He is Life. why does he do this? what is his motivation for this specific lie? what is the implication of it; what would it say about the character of God if it were true? what would it say about the life and existence Woman had? what would it imply about the actual tree of life?

what does he expect God to do to her? does he expect her to bring the fruit to Adam? why doesn't he go to Adam directly? or does he? who is watching all this, besides God? who do you es Satan want to make these implicit accusations clear to, and why?
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Not interested. I'm sure you will make something up. It is only an Old Testament parable when all said and done.
 
PS said:
Not interested. I'm sure you will make something up.
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Why are you in a Bible discussion site if you aren't interested in discussing or even thinking about what is written in the Bible lol?

Is it a surprise then when you find yourself with wrong understanding of it?
 
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posthuman said:
Why are you in a Bible discussion site if you aren't interested in discussing or even thinking about what is written in the Bible lol?

Is it a surprise then when you find yourself with wrong understanding of it?
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Not interested in aimless meanderings.
 
Roughsoul1991 said:
Also John 8:44 doesn't imply that all throughout the OT from Abraham to Jesus they completely followed a false God. In fact even Jesus says his sheep will hear his voice which is speaking on the remnant of Jews who was following the God of Abraham.
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I know, never said otherwise.
 
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