Is God A Moral Monster?

[posthuman]

Adam "being responsible" for Eve, doesn't seem to hold up in light of:
Genesis 3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Which seems to indicate, that "before?" They were "mutual help meets" for each other.

would that necessarily imply equality? why two heads?

does the judgement of God fit the crime?
if it does, what does that tell you about Woman's motive?
what would the woman's motive tell you about the situation before she ate?
what would Adam's & Satan's judgement tell you about their motives?
or Cain's?

 

[posthuman]

As the written record bears out? This didn't occur til "after" their eyes were opened, and became "cognizant" of their "nakedness." So, covered those parts of themselves that they believed was the cause of their "eyes to be opened" with fig leaves.

in the beginning they were unashamed.

Woman was ashamed before Adam. he met her while she was the first and only sinful human on earth and he was the first human and the only human on earth who did not know sin. her eyes were open to something that his eyes were not, and he was not deceived.
God asked Adam who told him he was naked. He called to Adam, not to both of them, not to Woman - and He asked him who told him he was naked. Adam replied, the Woman.

when Woman, poisoned, met Adam, clean, they had a conversation, and he chose to eat as she had eaten.
then both their eyes were opened to something. then, realizing they were naked, they were ashamed.
God called to Adam and asked him, did you eat of the fruit which He commanded not to? he answered, whom You gave unto me gave to me, and i took and ate.

God is satisfied with this answer. He doesn't call the man to speak anymore.
the Liar, God does not allow to speak in this court.
He speaks to Woman, and curses the Liar.
He judges the man: He curses the ground for his sake. the next thing the man does is change the name of Woman to Eve, which means 'Living' - and then God declares the man has become like one of Him.

Adam knows why his eyes were opened. he knows it's the fruit he ate. he doesn't blame his genitals. Adam is not deceived, and he still has the wisdom to change Woman's name to Eve - an act of understanding for which God Himself exclaims, behold!

 

[posthuman]

But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them also that sinned not after the like manner of the transgression of Adam, which was the figure of Him that was to come. But yet the gift is not so as is the offense: for if through the offense of that one, many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

(Romans 5:14-15)​

​

all of this stems from asking ourselves one very simple and obvious question when we read Genesis 3:
Adam was the figure of Him that was to come. how was Adam prefiguring Christ here?

 

[posthuman]

Really!?
When's the last time you voted, eh?

Last time I voted was in 2012. I just do not vote anymore.

Then we are being "governed" by that which we "deserve."
Yeah! Sure! In the end? God wins! Doesn't mean "we" do though!

God didn't actually like the Israelites choosing a king for themselves.
but that's a whole other 200 page thread as yet unwritten.

 

[posthuman]

Adam knows why his eyes were opened. he knows it's the fruit he ate. he doesn't blame his genitals. Adam is not deceived, and he still has the wisdom to change Woman's name to Eve - an act of understanding for which God Himself exclaims, behold!

why does God say "behold!" ?
what was so significant about what took place immediately before He says this?
is God surprised? did Omniscient God see this coming?
who is He saying this to?
who hears Him? why? what does He want them to behold, and why?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Oops this thread has been very interesting lol. Before this thread I never knew people worshipped a different God in scripture and not the whole image of God in scripture.

Wanted to refute the atheists objections but I suppose more theological work needs to be done in the church to explain why the whole Bible is accurate.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Oops this thread has been very interesting lol. Before this thread I never knew people worshipped a different God in scripture and not the whole image of God in scripture.

Wanted to refute the atheists objections but I suppose more theological work needs to be done in the church to explain why the whole Bible is accurate.

Remember the people who do not worship the one true God are idolaters and remain lost. So the work is required to bring them into the Church, I view the Church as the Body of Christ, the people

 

[Dino246]

View attachment 206517

Does the upper shelf hold the can of Whoop-A**?

 

[posthuman]

Does the upper shelf hold the can of Whoop-A**?

next to this IIRC ?

 

[NayborBear]

would that necessarily imply equality? why two heads?

4 hands can get more done.

does the judgement of God fit the crime?

Yes!

if it does, what does that tell you about Woman's motive?

Wasn't woman's motive. T'was the serpents. Wasn't till after their eyes were opened, she realized she'd been duped!

what would the woman's motive tell you about the situation before she ate?

I thinks it's the same motive Adam had. God didn't tell him there were "enemies" on the premises.

what would Adam's & Satan's judgement tell you about their motives?
or Cain's?

The "war" was between God and "the serpent." Much akin to what God told satan concerning Job.

Adam shoulda been more like Job, and less like Adam, eh?

The "serpents" motive is to "replace" God on His Throne. (also called the "son of perdition" 2Thess.2:4)

Cain's motive was to further his "daddy's" exploits.

 

[NayborBear]

Woman was ashamed before Adam. he met her while she was the first and only sinful human on earth and he was the first human and the only human on earth who did not know sin. her eyes were open to something that his eyes were not, and he was not deceived.
God asked Adam who told him he was naked. He called to Adam, not to both of them, not to Woman - and He asked him who told him he was naked. Adam replied, the Woman.

According to Gen.3:6? Both their eyes were opened at the same time. Also sounds like they were both, yea, even all 3 together when "they ate."

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Does the upper shelf hold the can of Whoop-A**?

Nope that is in the spice cabinet.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

4 hands can get more done.



Yes!



Wasn't woman's motive. T'was the serpents. Wasn't till after their eyes were opened, she realized she'd been duped!



I thinks it's the same motive Adam had. God didn't tell him there were "enemies" on the premises.



The "war" was between God and "the serpent." Much akin to what God told satan concerning Job.

Adam shoulda been more like Job, and less like Adam, eh?

The "serpents" motive is to "replace" God on His Throne. (also called the "son of perdition" 2Thess.2:4)

Cain's motive was to further his "daddy's" exploits.

I thinks it's the same motive Adam had. God didn't tell him there were "enemies" on the premises.

But God did tell them not to eat from a certain tree or a certain reaction would happen. The only ought not to command but mankind chose to still eat from that tree.

It wasn't many trees of knowledge. But 1 tree. They didn't just eat from it by accident. The serpent didn't change the tree, or the fruit, but simply just tempted Eve. She knew that was the tree but decided she would listen to a mere serpent over God.

And boy they must if regretted it. It was like living in the richest place on Earth but then being thrown out into the slums. Going from unbroken to a broken world must of been a shocking experience. Something we cannot imagine due to we only see the broken world.

 

[Whispered]

But God did tell them not to eat from a certain tree or a certain reaction would happen. The only ought not to command but mankind chose to still eat from that tree.

It wasn't many trees of knowledge. But 1 tree. They didn't just eat from it by accident. The serpent didn't change the tree, or the fruit, but simply just tempted Eve. She knew that was the tree but decided she would listen to a mere serpent over God.

And boy they must if regretted it. It was like living in the richest place on Earth but then being thrown out into the slums. Going from unbroken to a broken world must of been a shocking experience. Something we cannot imagine due to we only see the broken world.

But remember, the serpent was smarter than Eve. He persuaded her through his cunning, and led her to believe him because she did not know what evil was. She did not know he was leading her to grievous error.
The Book of Genesis chapter 3
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of [a]any tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as [b]God, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was [c]to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves [d]aprons. 8 And they heard the [e]voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden in the [f]cool of the day: and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Jehovah God amongst the trees of the garden.

The eating of the forbidden fruit, made Eve wise and like God, knowing the difference between good and evil, obedience and disobedience.

Have we asked ourselves, why was it wrong to be in the knowledge that God has? Knowing good from evil? And why would such a tree being planted in the garden still lead God to look upon all his creation once finished and declare it good?

God asked where was Adam because Adam was in the flesh now, in other words, no longer innocent but fully aware of his being. Realizing he was exposed (naked) , his innocence cast off, he felt ashamed. As did Eve.

It is a deeper story than what appears on the surface.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

But remember, the serpent was smarter than Eve. He persuaded her through his cunning, and led her to believe him because she did not know what evil was. She did not know he was leading her to grievous error.
The Book of Genesis chapter 3
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of [a]any tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as [b]God, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was [c]to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat; and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves [d]aprons. 8 And they heard the [e]voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden in the [f]cool of the day: and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of Jehovah God amongst the trees of the garden.

The eating of the forbidden fruit, made Eve wise and like God, knowing the difference between good and evil, obedience and disobedience.

Have we asked ourselves, why was it wrong to be in the knowledge that God has? Knowing good from evil? And why would such a tree being planted in the garden still lead God to look upon all his creation once finished and declare it good?

God asked where was Adam because Adam was in the flesh now, in other words, no longer innocent but fully aware of his being. Realizing he was exposed (naked) , his innocence cast off, he felt ashamed. As did Eve.

It is a deeper story than what appears on the surface.

She knew what God had told her through. God told them not to eat from that tree. So anything else was a direct contradiction even when not knowing evil. They still knew God gave them a ought not even if they didn't understand why. It was a simple act of obedience.

 

[Dibby53]

So, is God a moral monster? Lol.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to define our terms first. How do we define and commonly use the word "moral"?
"Monster".. I guess by this we mean something grotesque and horrible.
Is "God" only revelaed in the bible, or can he be known in other ways?


Of course, you have an idea what I think. Roughsoul, you started the thread. Maybe you would start by defining the terms as you understand them?

 

[posthuman]

According to Gen.3:6? Both their eyes were opened at the same time. Also sounds like they were both, yea, even all 3 together when "they ate."

here it is in Young's Literal, which is generally word-for-word and free from interpretive changes

And the woman seeth that the tree [is] good for food, and that it [is] pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make [one] wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat;​

and the eyes of them both are opened, and they know that they [are] naked, and they sew fig-leaves, and make to themselves girdles.​

(Genesis 3:6-7 YLT) ​

​

• the text doesn't say both their eyes were opened simultaneously, but that at a time both were open. that her eyes were opened first, and then his also, fits the text.
• if Adam is with Woman when she is deceived is incongruent with 1 Timothy 2:14, that Adam was not deceived. how does he stand there watching the conversation with the Serpent, not being fooled by any of it, yet say nothing, take no action to stop her or oppose him, and eat? she eats right in front of him while he stands there staring into space, oblivious? not fooled by Satan or by her yet completely incapable of doing anything but accepting whatever she does and whatever she gives him, he puts in his mouth without thinking? all while not deceived?
  • this paints Adam as an idiot. the rest of the text doesn't support Adam being an idiot
  • the text says she gives 'also to her husband with her' -- the narrative that she ate, then at a later time he joined her in having eaten, fits the text equally well - the text is giving an order of events that aren't necessarily all taking place over the span of the 45 seconds it takes to read them.
• God asks Adam who told him he was naked. God knows exactly what has happened - He knows every detail. the implication of the question is that someone told Adam he was naked - that someone being, as Adam answered Him, Woman. this only makes sense if there is a period of time during which her eyes are opened, and his are not. this scenario only takes place if she, with the Serpent, eats, and after some unspecified time, meets with Adam - her eyes opened - speaks to him while his eyes are not opened, and then he, with her, eats also.
  • the alternative is that God begins court proceedings with a nonsensical question.

 

[posthuman]

She knew what God had told her through. God told them not to eat from that tree. So anything else was a direct contradiction even when not knowing evil. They still knew God gave them a ought not even if they didn't understand why. It was a simple act of obedience.

so what exactly is the deception?
was Woman deceived into thinking God hadn't actually said don't eat from the tree of 'you shall surely die' ?
that doesn't seem to fit the narrative.
what specifically was she deceived about, then?

 

[posthuman]

The eating of the forbidden fruit, made Eve wise and like God,

then why didn't God ever say so?
instead - when God pronounced the curse of Satan and the promise of the Seed, Adam, hearing, understanding and believing this, changes the name of Woman to 'Living' -- then and only then, God says BEHOLD!!! the man has become like one of Him.

God doesn't say this about Woman. Satan entices her with it, but God doesn't say it of her, nor of both of them, but of Adam -- and doesn't say it when they ate of the fruit, but says it when Adam changes her name.

is it different if you eat having been deceived than if you eat not being deceived?
yes - for sin entered the world through one man even though Woman ate first.
God curses the ground for Adam's sake.
God curses the Serpent because of what the Serpent had done.
there is no curse on Woman nor for the sake of Woman.

whatever the right understanding of this is, it has to accommodate and explain these facts.

 

[PS]

View attachment 206517


Oops this thread has been very interesting lol. Before this thread I never knew people worshipped a different God in scripture and not the whole image of God in scripture.

Wanted to refute the atheists objections but I suppose more theological work needs to be done in the church to explain why the whole Bible is accurate.

You can easily refute the atheists claims about GOD being evil by explaining the people followed false god's and the true God is the God of Abram as confirmed by Jesus. He also said the god of the Jews was the devil (John 8:44) so in that regard the atheists are right.

That does not stop them, or us, following the God of Abraham, the true God and Father of Jesus, and indeed our heavenly Father also.