Is unconditional election biblical?

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

God hates sin but God loves people. If God did not love people He would not have sent His Son in the likeness of sinful man to die to atone for mans sin.

Man was created in the image and likeness of God. Man has a will that can respond to God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God hates sinners too my friend.

This couldn’t be any clearer...

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.[Psalm 5:5-6]

That can’t be any clearer. He abhors the man, not just the man’s sin. He hates all who do iniquity, not just the man’s iniquity. He does hate sin, but you can not divorce the sin from the sinner and vice versa.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In Ezekiel 29, God tells Ezekiel 8 “Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast. 9 The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste. Then they will know that I am the LORD."

Now, who was this sword God was going to use? 18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it.” 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army. 20 I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed, because they acted for Me,” declares the Lord GOD.

Here we can see that God was using Babylon to execute judgment upon Egypt. God used Babylon to fulfill His decreed will and did not violate their will at all. They willingly, of their own accord, did that which God stirred them up to do.

Then in Ezekiel 31 we can read of the Assyrians downfall...10 “Because it is high in stature and has set its top among the clouds, and its heart is haughty in its loftiness, 11 therefore I will give it into the hand of a despot of the nations; he will thoroughly deal with it. According to its wickedness I have driven it away. 12 Alien tyrants of the nations have cut it down and left it; on the mountains and in all the valleys its branches have fallen and its boughs have been broken in all the ravines of the land. And all the peoples of the earth have gone down from its shade and left it. 13 On its ruin all the birds of the heavens will dwell, and all the beasts of the field will be on its fallen branches 14 so that all the trees by the waters may not be exalted in their stature, nor set their top among the clouds, nor their well-watered mighty ones stand erect in their height. For they have all been given over to death, to the earth beneath, among the sons of men, with those who go down to the pit.” Now, I've read that some believe the despot of the nations was Nebuchadnezzar, some believe it to be Cyrus, and also could be Arbaces(never heard of him). But regardless, the point remains, God uses ppl to fulfill His decreed will, and does not violate their wills. In fact, He uses their wills to fulfill His decreed will.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

God used these men, who freely and willingly, crucified the Lord. He used their wills and never violated them.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God used these men, who freely and willingly, crucified the Lord. He used their wills and never violated them

Yeah. But He did not elect them for damnation. That was their choice and they were held accountable for THEIR CHOICES.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yeah. But He did not elect them for damnation. That was their choice and they were held accountable for THEIR CHOICES.

And yet man freely chooses that which is in accordance to his nature.

“Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil."[Jeremiah 13:23]

As soon as someone can change skin color and the leopard can take his spots off and put on stripes, man can act outside of his nature.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yeah. But He did not elect them for damnation. That was their choice and they were held accountable for THEIR CHOICES.

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.[Romans 9]

God choose the elect from the same lump the non-elect was in. There was nothing that distinguished them from the non-elect, as they are made of the same exact substance(the lump of clay).

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Yeah. But He did not elect them for damnation. That was their choice and they were held accountable for THEIR CHOICES.

1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.[Romans 3]

1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.[Romans 9]

As Paul so articulately wrote, the Jews had the oracles(word) of God, they also had the adoption as sons, the glory and the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple services, and also the promises. Show me where any other nation than Israel had these. Show me where any other nation than Israel had a high priest that interceded to God on their behalf. Show me where any other nation other than Israel had a sacrificial system to atone for their sins.

They were left to their own devices my friend. God left them w/o all of these things the nation of Israel had. Yet, Israel was not something special. They were no better than the other nations God left in their fallen state.

7 “The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deuteronomy 7]

Your side of the debate demands God at least 'try' to save ppl, that way when they reject Him, your theology gets Him 'off the hook'(thanks @preacher4truth for that ). God is not on the hook to begin with.

"For grace to be grace it must be free. If God has to offer grace to everyone w/o exception, it ceases to be grace, but is an obligation." Dr. James White.

 

[notuptome]

God hates sinners too my friend.

This couldn’t be any clearer...

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.[Psalm 5:5-6]

That can’t be any clearer. He abhors the man, not just the man’s sin. He hates all who do iniquity, not just the man’s iniquity. He does hate sin, but you can not divorce the sin from the sinner and vice versa.

In this your heart is revealed. It was Jesus that said we are to do good to our enemies. We are to hate evil but not people. Job eschewed evil not people.

It is the goodness of God that leads not forces men to repentance. God causes the rain to fall on the good and the evil. God feeds and clothes the good and the evil.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels not men. Jesus went to the cross of Calvary that all men might be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

God loved the world yes, He sent His son. Does not mean God currently is presently loving Kim Jong too much. God would not send people to hell if He loved them. God loved (past tense) them when He sent the Son, but if they did not repent and turn to the Son, the wrath of God remains on them. This is said right after the John 3:16 you referenced:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Wrath of God abideth on him, not love, but wrath. Couldn't be any clearer

Imagine the rejoicing if Kim Jong came to know Christ as his Savior. Just as much rejoicing in heaven as when you came to Christ.

Gods wrath abides upon sin. If man will not forsake his sin then he is attached to his sin and perishes with his sin. God does not hate men but God absolutely hates sin with a sovereign righteous hatred. Gods hatred is perfect and eternal. God has never loved sin but God does love His creation man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Imagine the rejoicing if Kim Jong came to know Christ as his Savior. Just as much rejoicing in heaven as when you came to Christ.

Gods wrath abides upon sin. If man will not forsake his sin then he is attached to his sin and perishes with his sin. God does not hate men but God absolutely hates sin with a sovereign righteous hatred. Gods hatred is perfect and eternal. God has never loved sin but God does love His creation man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I see. You know better than the Bible.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. [not his sin, but him, the person]

There is no point in discussing anything once a man places his philosophy over what the Bible teaches it is finished.

 

[notuptome]

I see. You know better than the Bible.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. [not his sin, but him, the person]

There is no point in discussing anything once a man places his philosophy over what the Bible teaches it is finished.

How you judge another is how you will be judged. Your opinion of that scripture is different from mine but I include a considerable amount of context in my understanding. One day you will come to a better conclusion.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

In this your heart is revealed. It was Jesus that said we are to do good to our enemies. We are to hate evil but not people. Job eschewed evil not people.

It is the goodness of God that leads not forces men to repentance. God causes the rain to fall on the good and the evil. God feeds and clothes the good and the evil.

Hell was created for the devil and his angels not men. Jesus went to the cross of Calvary that all men might be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

My heart is revealed? Brother, I gave you the plain reading of those texts and you went off into left field. It says that God does this...

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.[Psalm 5:5-6]

Does God hate those who will reside in the lake of fire for eternity my friend?

 

[Melach]

My heart is revealed? Brother, I gave you the plain reading of those texts and you went off into left field. It says that God does this...

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.[Psalm 5:5-6]

Does God hate those who will reside in the lake of fire for eternity my friend?

shows your heart? thats what u get for quoting scripture. maybe you showed God's heart and roger didnt like it?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

shows your heart? thats what u get for quoting scripture. maybe you showed God's heart and roger didnt like it?

God abhors sin. That’s unquestionable. Both sides agree with that. They say God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. That looks good on bumper stickers and bible covers, but makes for horrible doctrine. When the lost stand before Him, the sinner gets punished in the lake of fire.

 

[fredoheaven]

Romans 10:17

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”

The scripture speaks of this faith that saves as when we listen to the word. The scripture is clear the faith comes hence, it is certainly to attain to, it is the end and not the means. The means is to hear the word and then faith takes place. The arrival of this saving faith is when we do hear, we reached, get it through hearing. Hearing is to be informed, learn to receive the tidings of a message as to hear what the Spirit sayeth.

 

[fredoheaven]

God loved the world yes, He sent His son. Does not mean God currently is presently loving Kim Jong too much. God would not send people to hell if He loved them. God loved (past tense) them when He sent the Son, but if they did not repent and turn to the Son, the wrath of God remains on them. This is said right after the John 3:16 you referenced:

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Wrath of God abideth on him, not love, but wrath. Couldn't be any clearer

Yep, this take a choice to believe and not to believe on what Christ did.

 

[fredoheaven]

Since all have sinned as Romans 3:23 says and the penalty of sin is death.What is being offered to sinners?
The Bible has the answer.


Romans 6:23

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

 

[notuptome]

My heart is revealed? Brother, I gave you the plain reading of those texts and you went off into left field. It says that God does this...

The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.[Psalm 5:5-6]

Does God hate those who will reside in the lake of fire for eternity my friend?

What you do not understand and cannot grasp is that God does love even those whom He condemns. He is God and He loves with a pure love that cannot hate mankind. God hates sin but not the soul that God created.

Your plain reading is colored with your hatred and biased suspicions. The heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it? Mine is just as bad as any but the Holy Spirit does not allow me to hate even the worst sinner.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

shows your heart? thats what u get for quoting scripture. maybe you showed God's heart and roger didnt like it?

So in your heart you believe God is hateful toward His creation man? Have you pondered how God can love sinners? I cannot accuse God of hating sinners as His word says He loves sinners.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Melach]

So in your heart you believe God is hateful toward His creation man? Have you pondered how God can love sinners? I cannot accuse God of hating sinners as His word says He loves sinners.

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

He loved them by sending His son why cant u see that? that was 2000 years ago.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

What you do not understand and cannot grasp is that God does love even those whom He condemns. He is God and He loves with a pure love that cannot hate mankind. God hates sin but not the soul that God created.

Your plain reading is colored with your hatred and biased suspicions. The heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it? Mine is just as bad as any but the Holy Spirit does not allow me to hate even the worst sinner.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

But you are saying He loves even the vessels of wrath. Only a cruel God punishes those He loves.