Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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UnderGrace

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#3,701
#3,701
Noose said:
It does actually.

1. Whatever works Jesus did were not His own but of the one who sent Him. It is by those works that He was perfected/saved because He obeyed.

2. Whatever works saints do today are not their own but the works of the one who sent them (Jesus).

"..whatever you did to one of these little ones (in need) you did it for me.."
Jesus

And these works are what are referred to as faith.
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I will let you deal with this @mailmandan
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#3,702
#3,702
PennEd said:
You think that means the person's earthly, flesh body will be saved?
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they will survive ... yes

If they survive/endure the tribulation then only logical the body has survived.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#3,703
Apr 18, 2016
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#3,703
UnderGrace said:
Context is important... it can mean "bodily salvation" and sometimes the soul (mind, will emotions.
In Mediterranean languages people use saved in many different ways.
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There's no such thing as being bodily saved.

"..The one who perseveres to the end shall be saved"

You say the above statement as used by Jesus twice in Matthew, mean to be bodily saved. I have a question for you:

Q. Did Stephen's failure to persevere to the end the reason he was killed and could not be saved bodily?

This applies to all the disciples/Apostles - all of them got killed and non was saved bodily.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#3,704
#3,704
Noose said:
There's no such thing as being bodily saved.

"..The one who perseveres to the end shall be saved"

You say the above statement as used by Jesus twice in Matthew, mean to be bodily saved. I have a question for you:

Q. Did Stephen fail to persevere to the end the reason he was killed and could not be saved bodily?

This applies to all the disciples/Apostles - all of them got killed and non was saved bodily.
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Well you simply words and their multiple meanings.. but then that would be essential to make your false dogma work.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#3,705
Apr 18, 2016
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#3,705
UnderGrace said:
Well you simply words and their multiple meanings.. but then that would be essential to make your false dogma work.
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Did Stephen's failure to persevere to the end the reason he was killed and could not be saved bodily?
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#3,706
Apr 7, 2014
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#3,706
UnderGrace said:
I will let you deal with this @mailmandan
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What a mess! So Christ did the works of the one who sent Him (God the Father) and by that Christ was saved? o_O I did not realize that Christ needed to be saved. Also, he "defines" faith "as" works. Faith is faith and works are works. Works-salvationists cannot seem to grasp that.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#3,707
Apr 18, 2016
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#3,707
mailmandan said:
What a mess! So Christ did the works of the one who sent Him (God the Father) and by that Christ was saved? o_O I did not realize that Christ needed to be saved. Also, he "defines" faith "as" works. Faith is faith and works are works. Works-salvationists cannot seem to grasp that.
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Heb 5:7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

John 10:37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#3,708
Apr 22, 2013
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#3,708
UnderGrace said:
they will survive ... yes

If they survive/endure the tribulation then only logical the body has survived.
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Really?! I'm a little surprised you believe that.

Are you referring strictly to the 7 year Great Tribulation?
 
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John146

Senior Member
#3,709
Jan 13, 2016
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#3,709
PennEd said:
You think that means the person's earthly, flesh body will be saved?
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Matthew 24 is great tribulation context. Eternal salvation is not the context but physically enduring to the end and being ushered into the millennial kingdom.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 
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John146

Senior Member
#3,710
Jan 13, 2016
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PennEd said:
Can you give me a Scriptural example where saved doesn't mean born again, saved from eternal destruction?
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Acts 27:20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#3,711
Apr 7, 2014
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#3,711
Noose said:
Heb 5:7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

John 10:37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.
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What type of death is referred to here? Spiritual death or physical, sacrificial death on the cross? Jesus is the source of salvation and did not need to be saved from spiritual death.
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#3,712
Apr 18, 2016
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mailmandan said:
What type of death is referred to hear? Spiritual or physical death on the cross?
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Spiritual. The same kind of death that we are also being saved from.

Can't you see the comparison in the same verse. Jesus was saved because He obeyed and now He is the source of salvation for those that obey Him.
 
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Noose

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#3,713
Apr 18, 2016
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#3,713
And, there is such a thing as obedience that leads to righteousness but there's no such a thing as righteousness that leads to obedience.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#3,714
Noose said:
Spiritual. The same kind of death that we are also being saved from.

Can't you see the comparison in the same verse. Jesus was saved because He obeyed and now He is the source of salvation for those that obey Him.
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Wrong! The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) yet Jesus was without sin. (Hebrews 4:15) This is heresy!
 
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Noose

Senior Member
#3,715
Apr 18, 2016
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#3,715
John146 said:
Matthew 24 is great tribulation context. Eternal salvation is not the context but physically enduring to the end and being ushered into the millennial kingdom.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
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You don't know what you are confidently insinuating.
We are in the great tribulation, we have been since the 1st century.
 
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Noose

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#3,716
Apr 18, 2016
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Noose

Senior Member
#3,719
Apr 18, 2016
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#3,719
mailmandan said:
Jesus bore our sins does not mean that He was a sinner.
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No it doesn't, but it's like saying, " Jesus being our righteousness does not mean He was righteous"

Jesus was perfected by what He suffered.
Jesus increased in wisdom
Jesus was made victorious over sin (salvation/resurrection) because He obeyed the one who could save Him.
 
PennEd

PennEd

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#3,720
Apr 22, 2013
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John146 said:
Acts 27:20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
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Maybe I should clarify my question.

OBVIOUSLY, you can find passages dealing with people being saved from whatever in Scripture in an earthly sense. Heck, the whole Book of Exodus chronicles that.

I'm talking about passages like THIS:
Romans 10:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


If this doesn't mean born again, saved from destruction, what DOES it mean?
 
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