Is unconditional election biblical?
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jesus recites a set of 3 parables here. In the 1st, the SHEEP is also lost, presumed dead.
Luke 15:4-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine [a]just persons who need no repentance.
So how long is He going to go after His lost Child? UNTIL HE FINDS HIM!
Just who do you think drew the Prodigal son home?
Leighton Flowers is a former Calvinist. He's going to be attacked just for leaving that congregation of errant thought. As we witness here in these forums. I don't think people realize they are demonstrating the power of Christ in their life when they speak. And especially when they think to defend their understanding of His word.
The foundation of Jesus' commandments, Love, should be first and foremost evident in all things. Even typing on a forum.
The Full video by Leighton Flowers is entitled, Butchers Election. It is designated as private and only available on YouTube to members allowed to view it. I can understand why.
This is a brief presentation on Election. I think it is useful for this discussion.
Transcript:
when most people here today especially
the word election it seems like they
automatically think it means God's
choice to irresistable save some
individuals I give it to the Calvinists
today I think they've done a really good
job convincing this generation that's
what biblical election is all about an
individual chosen before creation for
effectual salvation yet this
individualized interpretation of
election according to even
well-respected Calvinistic historians
like Lorraine bottner teach that this
wasn't clearly taught until Augustine
who doesn't even teach this view of
election until the fifth century in
other words the way many people
understand election today is not the way
it was understood throughout Old
Testament times the New Testament times
or any time until a former Gnostic
Manichaean philosopher from Africa who
did not know Greek came along 300 years
after the time of Christ to systematize
it for us the earliest church fathers
men like Irenaeus or Ignatius who
Ignatius was actually taught by the
Apostle John himself and we have some of
their writings they never taught an
individualistic Calvinistic view of
election in fact they repudiated this
kind of interpretation in much of their
writings for instance I want us to look
at one early church father the Clement
of Rome we're talking about a letter
written to Rome and he was likely in
Rome and it would have been very
familiar with this letter Clement is
actually referenced in Philippians
chapter 4 verse 3 we're told that the
the Apostle Peter himself likely
commissioned it Clement and he followed
Peter probably sometime as a bishop
there in Rome so it would be good to
know what a first century person of the
first church and early church father
thought on this subject well we don't
have to guess we have a lot of his
writings I picked a short quote just for
times sake he wrote this it is therefore
in the power of everyone since man has
been made possessed of freewill whether
he shall hear us to life or here the
demons to destruction you see very few
students in my experience are even aware
of how the church understood the nature
of man or the doctrine of election for
the first 400 years of the church's
existence in our modern culture it
tends to oversimplify things if you
haven't noticed many of us talk about
election as if it's only one choice
that's got that gods made the choice of
one individual or a group of individuals
before the foundation of the earth to be
effectually saved
U
UnderGrace
Guest
You will need to ask someone who adheres to "Calvinist/Reformed" view because I cannot answer for them.
We have to recall that Augustine was a devotee of Manichæism for nine years before renouncing it.
[Acta Seu Disputatio Contra Fortunatum Manichæum.] a.d.392. [221]
And here we read Augustine , who was once Gnostic, speak against it as well.
It should be noted also that Augustine did believe man had free will.
Yes, thank you. Perhaps someone will deem to do so.
I was making inquiry in my post as to your remarks in post #983."Free will apart form all constraints/determinants only existed prior to the fall. "
U
UnderGrace
Guest
Yes I understand, I really do not see God's sovereignty in opposition to the autonomy given to man by God, but that somehow God knowing everything from start to finish can execute His will perfectly without imposing His will so as to create automatons.
I am not sure we will ever understand this completely within our limited finite mind.
I think the whole debate on free will is not really pertinent to topic of salvation... since no one can will themselves into believing and neither does God impose His will... If God imposes His will and forces belief there really is no glory to God in that action.
I have always been most delighted in my son when he was persuaded/convicted and yielded on the counsel I gave him, rather than forcing him to do I asked.
Was "CALVINISM" introduced by Augustine?
I will say this also for those who will continue to defame Mr.Flowers. Who better to express what they know about Calvinism than one who was formerly a Calvinist?
I will say this also for those who will continue to defame Mr.Flowers. Who better to express what they know about Calvinism than one who was formerly a Calvinist?
can you tell me dear friend what was the view of election by the early church he speaks of here? summary please friend?
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
well I actually was thinking more about it, even though I have heard and been taught all my life that we do have 3 parts...body, soul and spirit
consider this: even though Adam and Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree, God still spoke with them. God spoke with their sons Cain and Abel. I guess someone could say well that was not long after the fall so things were different...but since it is declared they died that very minute they sinned, how different from then to now were things?
the Psalms declare that the heavens illustrate the glory of God and it is the fool that has said in his heart there is no God
Paul states there is no excuse . For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20
it would seem to me that what is being said, is that people know...intrinsically know...God IS.
therefore, Paul states, there is no excuse and that would tie in, IMO, with only fools say God does not exist
I would also understand mankinds desire to create something to worship...something bigger and more powerful and in charge....from this inate knowledge of Someone who is 'more'...like Paul addressing the 'unknown god'
people without Christ are cut off from God...Jesus is the only way.
I would state that the knowledge of God runs throughout or is revealed throughout, His creation.
I don't believe nor do I see that the grace of God is irresistable as Calvinism teaches....although to be sure you do not have to be a 5 point Calvinist to believe God decided you were going to be a believer from before anything until now
the way I see it, is that God IS. no beginning and no end. therefore He knows who will choose Him and He states, in HIS way of being (not exactly our understanding) that He knew us and chose us. I understand predestined that way but with the caveat it may very well be kind of beyond my understanding. as God says ... His thoughts and ways are far above ours and I think that includes even believers
this is more in keeping with God who also states He is not willing that any should perish....but since people do, that would indicate no irresistable grace, but rather grace to be saved as He extends Himself toward us by His Spirit and then grace to keep us and bring us up as His child
Adam and Eve were obviously created with the ability to choose
if people can entertain the thought of God...and they do....and we hear many times of people 'searching' for God...even the Eunuch in the Bible needing the scriptures to be explained, then it would seem logical to me that choice has not been taken from us nor has the ability to recognize God been taken from us
I don't believe/think we are born in Adam's image but we have inheirited the sinful nature or fallen nature he brought upon himself...damaged DNA?
we cannot save ourselves as God's laws cannot be broken so God provided the only way we can be saved...One who never sinned and died in our place
I do believe we choose. further, God, when speaking to the Israelites at Mt Sinai, told them to choose...that very day...who they were going to serve
I don't know how Jesus death on the cross would have changed our ability to choose in such a way that suddenly the grace of God became irresistable
and as I have mentionned several times in this and another thread, hell was not created for human beings so that would preclude God deciding he would throw a few billion into it
anyway...some of my thoughts about it
oh...and with regards to the heart...well of course it is not the actual heart beating in our chest...it is the renewal of our way of thinking, thinking instead by agreeing with what God says and not being in rebellion. I believe the Holy Spirit continues to draw us to God throughout our lives because as we all know, we have the ability to wander off
David prayed to God asking God to renew a 'right' spirit within him. there is really so much to consider in scripture and God does not define Himself by a system or a rigid set of how to believe, but states that if we believe in His Son we are saved...faith accounted for righteousness... God reveals Himself to people who seek Him....also stated in scripture
I believe as scripture states that we ARE made a new creation...inside...our bodies will still wear out, or be in an accident or illness and we will die. like they say...nobody gets out of here alive. our spirits are able to communicate again and be one with our Creator but not like in the garden...the hope we have is to be like Him when we finally do see Him
we will finally be known even as we are known now
anyway...
NayborBear
Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
I understood Mr.Flowers to tell us, from the transcript so you see it there, "...it is therefore in the power of everyone since man has
been made possessed of freewill whether he shall hear us to life or here the demons to destruction ."
That God gave man free will to either choose to follow Christ or remain condemned and reject the message of Christ.
The elect of God are those who choose to follow Christ.
And yes, we know in the scriptures God persuaded people to follow His will for them. Saul, Lot, Moses, Jonah, Noah. They were selected by God to do His will, but you notice these were imperfect men? Their free will often did fight God's drawing them to His will for them, but ultimately they did concede and do as God willed.
This is what we call, the individual election to God's service.
This is the proof text many Calvinists use to insist predetermination of peoples saving election by God's will: 16. You did not choose me, but (AH)I chose you and appointed you that you should go and (AI)bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that (AJ)whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. The Book of John chapter 15
But that scripture tells us God chose these men to be His Apostles. It is not a scripture, when we consider it in context, where we read God saying He chose all who would be saved, and consequently all who would not be.
You'll like this I think.
Please let me know. I think it will bring comfort to anyone who may fear Calvinism's teaching on election is right. (It is not. And it is not Biblical, of God). Fear not.What I have grown to enjoy about Mr.Flowers Soteriology 101 teachings is, he gives the Calvinist version also and before he gives the proper contextual understanding of scripture. This isn't common in those Calvinist teachers who look to bash Mr. Flowers teachings on YouTube.
Due to a reference made in the above video to Hyper Calvinism. I thought it important to differentiate here. There is a difference between Calvinism and "Hyper-Calvinism". Though it would sound like a Hyper Calvinist is a really energetic Fundamentalist Calvinist.
And this was discussed earlier and even a quote about preaching and people not having the ability to understand, a Calvinist teacher quote shared earlier.
What is Hyper-Calvinism?
Hyper-Calvinism is not a term used for those who are overly passionate about Calvinism. That’s actually what we refer to as “cage stage Calvinism.” When understood properly, hyper-Calvinism is a technical term for an extreme and unbiblical view that rejects any need for Christians to engage in missions and evangelism. Simply put, hyper-Calvinists forbid the preaching of the gospel and the offer of salvation to the non-elect. Such people believe that God has chosen people in Christ in eternity past and will bring about His results without the help of His people.
Calvinism Is Not Hyper-Calvinism
And this was discussed earlier and even a quote about preaching and people not having the ability to understand, a Calvinist teacher quote shared earlier.
What is Hyper-Calvinism?
Hyper-Calvinism is not a term used for those who are overly passionate about Calvinism. That’s actually what we refer to as “cage stage Calvinism.” When understood properly, hyper-Calvinism is a technical term for an extreme and unbiblical view that rejects any need for Christians to engage in missions and evangelism. Simply put, hyper-Calvinists forbid the preaching of the gospel and the offer of salvation to the non-elect. Such people believe that God has chosen people in Christ in eternity past and will bring about His results without the help of His people.
Calvinism Is Not Hyper-Calvinism
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
and
so in response to first post addressed to me and with regards to second post and the video wherein Flowers is described as a heretic by resident Calvinists here and because I said I would, my response after reading:
here is the question asked by Flowers to preacher4truth
God said, "Let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD."
How do you define boasting as it is used by God in this text?
but really you have to back up the conversation or this is simply an out of context remark like cherry picking once again
Flowers also makes this comment to another poster who argues against him
The Biblicist said: ↑
I understand that Christ's life and death is the SOLE basis of meriting justification before God.
Flowers:EXACTLY, and that is true regardless of whether our faith is a free response or a divinely determined one. Do you understand?
Biblicist:
Thus ultimately the human will is credited with the determinate cause of salvation
Flowers:As explained in the other thread, this is a false statement, as even those who believe and repent could justly be condemned for sin. It is only by His Grace that those who choose to believe are actually saved. His gracious choice to save the repentant is the determinative factor. Only if you presume God's choice to save the repentant is a given (or is somehow deserved) is this statement true, and that is not what we believe.
and then with regards to the boasting comments...your direct accusation of blasphemy comes from that...he states
P4T, I'm still waiting on your definition of boasting that makes God's words acceptable to you and your system....
Waiting...
I am satisfied he is not saying what you and p4t say. this goes back to 2014.....smh
basically, Flowers was a Calvinist who has left Calvinism and p4t states he was never a Calvinist
he states that because in true Calvinism, a Calvinist would ALWAYS remain within Calvinism
I hope everybody gets what I just said above because it's pretty eye opening
it's the fine print of Calvinsim
I see in the thread that was linked to, the same type of exchange we have right here
I expect to find much the same if I research any other claims of heresy or what have you with regards to what Flowers is saying
I'll let you know if I come across anything I consider heretical
probably don't hold your breath
@7seasrekeyed disagreed with this? Wow! Faith comes by the word[Romans 10:17]. We are justified by faith[Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8]. To be justified means to be declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of the Christ. So ppl can be declared righteous w/o ever hearing the word, never knowing who the Christ is? Wow, in ppl’s attempts to push themselves away from Calvinism, they run smack into hyper-Calvinism.
She’s saying they can come to saving faith via external means, external in that they can come to faith outside of the word of God. That’s heresy.
They did it themselves. No one made them do it. You’re asking me questions the Bible doesn’t speak about. I have a rule of thumb, when the Bible doesn’t speak, neither do I.
But they will have a real body my friend. There is a resurrection of the Just and unjust. And that doesn’t mean fair and unfair. You said God is just, but meant it as Him being fair. Him being just is Him doing what is right[Genesis 18:25].
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
@7seasrekeyed disagreed with this? Wow! Faith comes by the word[Romans 10:17]. We are justified by faith[Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8]. To be justified means to be declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of the Christ. So ppl can be declared righteous w/o ever hearing the word, never knowing who the Christ is? Wow, in ppl’s attempts to push themselves away from Calvinism, they run smack into hyper-Calvinism.
if you have a conscience, you should turn it on cause I don't think it's working
how else could you lie with such abandonnment?
this is what really went down:
Aug 27, 20177,9073,369113
Today at 1:20 PM
#986
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
But no one can know the Christ but via the word of God. That’s the thrust of Paul’s writing in Romans 10:14-17.
if I could have put a dozen x's on this particular post I would have
[/QUOTE]
My response which perhaps you actually cannot understand since you deny the Holy Spirit and prefer Calvin to guide you instead
if you have the Holy Spirit indwelling, and when a person accepts Christ they are sealed with the Spirit of God, how can you possibly assert that God is only outside of you in a book?
then again, you guys are cessationists after all so what would I expect
you stated there is no way to know Christ but through the Bible
that, is actually only the beginning
do you or not have the Holy Spirit inside of you with whom you can cry 'Abba Father'
you can know ABOUT Jesus from the Bible but you can only really KNOW Him through the Spirit of God
you bristle because you know you are a cessationist
your loss
actually you are wrong though.
the Bible states that FAITH COMES BY HEARING...not as you say through the Bible
the Bible was being written when that was penned and only today is the Bible so widely available