Is unconditional election biblical?

[Magenta]

John 3:16

 

[PennEd]

i will disprove not only total depravity, but also the misusing of ephesians 2:1 (etc). they say these verses proof that man is just spiritually dead and cant do anything, God needs to resurrect them before they can hear and believe gospel. but this is not what bible means with dead spiritually, that they cant think anymore.

the parable of the prodigal son he went to the world wasted his fortune was in there with the pigs.

Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


the father says "my son was dead and is alive again". when the son was "dead" he wasnt incapable of thinking or feeling remose, look in the story where i posted, "he came to himself" and then made up his mind said "i will arise and go to my father" and he was humble to say I have sinned against heaven and before thee. so then he goes back and Father forgives him, this is what Jesus also means when Jesus says God gives grace to the humble.

so we see being "dead" spiritually doesnt mean yo cant feel bad for your sins, repent and turn to God and be forgiven freely.
we dont even need bible to see this like seasrekeyed said. many people dont hate God they never even heard of Jesus

Jesus recites a set of 3 parables here. In the 1st, the SHEEP is also lost, presumed dead.

Luke 15:4-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine [a]just persons who need no repentance.

So how long is He going to go after His lost Child? UNTIL HE FINDS HIM!

Just who do you think drew the Prodigal son home?

 

[Whispered]

i looked at the context in which the choice meats thing was said by leighton flowers surprise james whitelie clipped that really well. same with the other accusation. if you listen to leighton flowers order of salvation sermon you will get it.

but calvinists never will.

Leighton Flowers is a former Calvinist. He's going to be attacked just for leaving that congregation of errant thought. As we witness here in these forums. I don't think people realize they are demonstrating the power of Christ in their life when they speak. And especially when they think to defend their understanding of His word.
The foundation of Jesus' commandments, Love, should be first and foremost evident in all things. Even typing on a forum.

The Full video by Leighton Flowers is entitled, Butchers Election. It is designated as private and only available on YouTube to members allowed to view it. I can understand why.
This is a brief presentation on Election. I think it is useful for this discussion.

Transcript:
when most people here today especially

the word election it seems like they

automatically think it means God's

choice to irresistable save some

individuals I give it to the Calvinists

today I think they've done a really good

job convincing this generation that's

what biblical election is all about an

individual chosen before creation for

effectual salvation yet this

individualized interpretation of

election according to even

well-respected Calvinistic historians

like Lorraine bottner teach that this

wasn't clearly taught until Augustine

who doesn't even teach this view of

election until the fifth century in

other words the way many people

understand election today is not the way

it was understood throughout Old

Testament times the New Testament times

or any time until a former Gnostic

Manichaean philosopher from Africa who

did not know Greek came along 300 years

after the time of Christ to systematize

it for us the earliest church fathers

men like Irenaeus or Ignatius who

Ignatius was actually taught by the

Apostle John himself and we have some of

their writings they never taught an

individualistic Calvinistic view of

election in fact they repudiated this

kind of interpretation in much of their

writings for instance I want us to look

at one early church father the Clement

of Rome we're talking about a letter

written to Rome and he was likely in

Rome and it would have been very

familiar with this letter Clement is

actually referenced in Philippians

chapter 4 verse 3 we're told that the

the Apostle Peter himself likely

commissioned it Clement and he followed

Peter probably sometime as a bishop

there in Rome so it would be good to

know what a first century person of the

first church and early church father

thought on this subject well we don't

have to guess we have a lot of his

writings I picked a short quote just for

times sake he wrote this it is therefore

in the power of everyone since man has

been made possessed of freewill whether

he shall hear us to life or here the

demons to destruction you see very few

students in my experience are even aware

of how the church understood the nature

of man or the doctrine of election for

the first 400 years of the church's

existence in our modern culture it

tends to oversimplify things if you

haven't noticed many of us talk about

election as if it's only one choice

that's got that gods made the choice of

one individual or a group of individuals

before the foundation of the earth to be

effectually saved

 

[UnderGrace]

How could it be free will then only, when God being sovereign has predestined all things according to His will and due to His zeal for his own glory?

You will need to ask someone who adheres to "Calvinist/Reformed" view because I cannot answer for them.

 

[Whispered]

We have to recall that Augustine was a devotee of Manichæism for nine years before renouncing it.

• Acts or Disputation against Fortunatus, the .writings in connection with the Manichæan controversy — St. Augustine

[Acta Seu Disputatio Contra Fortunatum Manichæum.] a.d.392. [221]​

And here we read Augustine , who was once Gnostic, speak against it as well.

• ST. AUGUSTINE ON GNOSTICISM.

It should be noted also that Augustine did believe man had free will.

 

[Whispered]

You will need to ask someone who adheres to "Calvinist/Reformed" view because I cannot answer for them.

Yes, thank you. Perhaps someone will deem to do so.
I was making inquiry in my post as to your remarks in post #983."Free will apart form all constraints/determinants only existed prior to the fall. "

 

[UnderGrace]

Yes, thank you. Perhaps someone will deem to do so.
I was making inquiry in my post as to your remarks in post #983."Free will apart form all constraints/determinants only existed prior to the fall. "

Yes I understand, I really do not see God's sovereignty in opposition to the autonomy given to man by God, but that somehow God knowing everything from start to finish can execute His will perfectly without imposing His will so as to create automatons.

I am not sure we will ever understand this completely within our limited finite mind.

I think the whole debate on free will is not really pertinent to topic of salvation... since no one can will themselves into believing and neither does God impose His will... If God imposes His will and forces belief there really is no glory to God in that action.

I have always been most delighted in my son when he was persuaded/convicted and yielded on the counsel I gave him, rather than forcing him to do I asked.

 

[Whispered]

Was "CALVINISM" introduced by Augustine?

I will say this also for those who will continue to defame Mr.Flowers. Who better to express what they know about Calvinism than one who was formerly a Calvinist?

 

[Melach]

Leighton Flowers is a former Calvinist. He's going to be attacked just for leaving that congregation of errant thought. As we witness here in these forums. I don't think people realize they are demonstrating the power of Christ in their life when they speak. And especially when they think to defend their understanding of His word.
The foundation of Jesus' commandments, Love, should be first and foremost evident in all things. Even typing on a forum.

The Full video by Leighton Flowers is entitled, Butchers Election. It is designated as private and only available on YouTube to members allowed to view it. I can understand why.
This is a brief presentation on Election. I think it is useful for this discussion.

Transcript:
when most people here today especially

the word election it seems like they

automatically think it means God's

choice to irresistable save some

individuals I give it to the Calvinists

today I think they've done a really good

job convincing this generation that's

what biblical election is all about an

individual chosen before creation for

effectual salvation yet this

individualized interpretation of

election according to even

well-respected Calvinistic historians

like Lorraine bottner teach that this

wasn't clearly taught until Augustine

who doesn't even teach this view of

election until the fifth century in

other words the way many people

understand election today is not the way

it was understood throughout Old

Testament times the New Testament times

or any time until a former Gnostic

Manichaean philosopher from Africa who

did not know Greek came along 300 years

after the time of Christ to systematize

it for us the earliest church fathers

men like Irenaeus or Ignatius who

Ignatius was actually taught by the

Apostle John himself and we have some of

their writings they never taught an

individualistic Calvinistic view of

election in fact they repudiated this

kind of interpretation in much of their

writings for instance I want us to look

at one early church father the Clement

of Rome we're talking about a letter

written to Rome and he was likely in

Rome and it would have been very

familiar with this letter Clement is

actually referenced in Philippians

chapter 4 verse 3 we're told that the

the Apostle Peter himself likely

commissioned it Clement and he followed

Peter probably sometime as a bishop

there in Rome so it would be good to

know what a first century person of the

first church and early church father

thought on this subject well we don't

have to guess we have a lot of his

writings I picked a short quote just for

times sake he wrote this it is therefore

in the power of everyone since man has

been made possessed of freewill whether

he shall hear us to life or here the

demons to destruction you see very few

students in my experience are even aware

of how the church understood the nature

of man or the doctrine of election for

the first 400 years of the church's

existence in our modern culture it

tends to oversimplify things if you

haven't noticed many of us talk about

election as if it's only one choice

that's got that gods made the choice of

one individual or a group of individuals

before the foundation of the earth to be

effectually saved

can you tell me dear friend what was the view of election by the early church he speaks of here? summary please friend?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

These are good and fair points. I will consider them.

My first thought without digging too deep is that I agree, even the lost are not spiritless. But of what spirit? You rightly point out that we will die physically. But we will also die spiritually if we are not born again. So the million dollar question remains. How can a fallen, sinful, spirit, that is born in ADAM'S image, be able to choose for themselves to be born again. I respect that some think they can. I just don't see it.

From God's perspective Adam and Eve died the day they disobeyed. He views 1 day as a thousand yrs, and neither made it quite to 1000 yrs old. So we either have to say God didn't really mean they die, He just means their hearts were sick, or we accept that they died that day.

Scripture doesn't talk about fixing our dead fleshly heart. It says we will be given a NEW heart. Made a NEW creation.

well I actually was thinking more about it, even though I have heard and been taught all my life that we do have 3 parts...body, soul and spirit

consider this: even though Adam and Eve had eaten from the forbidden tree, God still spoke with them. God spoke with their sons Cain and Abel. I guess someone could say well that was not long after the fall so things were different...but since it is declared they died that very minute they sinned, how different from then to now were things?

the Psalms declare that the heavens illustrate the glory of God and it is the fool that has said in his heart there is no God

Paul states there is no excuse . For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20

it would seem to me that what is being said, is that people know...intrinsically know...God IS.

therefore, Paul states, there is no excuse and that would tie in, IMO, with only fools say God does not exist

I would also understand mankinds desire to create something to worship...something bigger and more powerful and in charge....from this inate knowledge of Someone who is 'more'...like Paul addressing the 'unknown god'

people without Christ are cut off from God...Jesus is the only way.

I would state that the knowledge of God runs throughout or is revealed throughout, His creation.

I don't believe nor do I see that the grace of God is irresistable as Calvinism teaches....although to be sure you do not have to be a 5 point Calvinist to believe God decided you were going to be a believer from before anything until now

the way I see it, is that God IS. no beginning and no end. therefore He knows who will choose Him and He states, in HIS way of being (not exactly our understanding) that He knew us and chose us. I understand predestined that way but with the caveat it may very well be kind of beyond my understanding. as God says ... His thoughts and ways are far above ours and I think that includes even believers

this is more in keeping with God who also states He is not willing that any should perish....but since people do, that would indicate no irresistable grace, but rather grace to be saved as He extends Himself toward us by His Spirit and then grace to keep us and bring us up as His child

Adam and Eve were obviously created with the ability to choose

if people can entertain the thought of God...and they do....and we hear many times of people 'searching' for God...even the Eunuch in the Bible needing the scriptures to be explained, then it would seem logical to me that choice has not been taken from us nor has the ability to recognize God been taken from us

I don't believe/think we are born in Adam's image but we have inheirited the sinful nature or fallen nature he brought upon himself...damaged DNA?

we cannot save ourselves as God's laws cannot be broken so God provided the only way we can be saved...One who never sinned and died in our place

I do believe we choose. further, God, when speaking to the Israelites at Mt Sinai, told them to choose...that very day...who they were going to serve

I don't know how Jesus death on the cross would have changed our ability to choose in such a way that suddenly the grace of God became irresistable

and as I have mentionned several times in this and another thread, hell was not created for human beings so that would preclude God deciding he would throw a few billion into it

anyway...some of my thoughts about it

oh...and with regards to the heart...well of course it is not the actual heart beating in our chest...it is the renewal of our way of thinking, thinking instead by agreeing with what God says and not being in rebellion. I believe the Holy Spirit continues to draw us to God throughout our lives because as we all know, we have the ability to wander off

David prayed to God asking God to renew a 'right' spirit within him. there is really so much to consider in scripture and God does not define Himself by a system or a rigid set of how to believe, but states that if we believe in His Son we are saved...faith accounted for righteousness... God reveals Himself to people who seek Him....also stated in scripture

I believe as scripture states that we ARE made a new creation...inside...our bodies will still wear out, or be in an accident or illness and we will die. like they say...nobody gets out of here alive. our spirits are able to communicate again and be one with our Creator but not like in the garden...the hope we have is to be like Him when we finally do see Him

we will finally be known even as we are known now

anyway...

 

[NayborBear]

Jesus recites a set of 3 parables here. In the 1st, the SHEEP is also lost, presumed dead.

Luke 15:4-7 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine [a]just persons who need no repentance.

So how long is He going to go after His lost Child? UNTIL HE FINDS HIM!

Just who do you think drew the Prodigal son home?

According to the parable? Sounded like an empty stomach drew him home.

Jez sayin'.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You will need to ask someone who adheres to "Calvinist/Reformed" view because I cannot answer for them.

 

[Whispered]

can you tell me dear friend what was the view of election by the early church he speaks of here? summary please friend?

I understood Mr.Flowers to tell us, from the transcript so you see it there, "...it is therefore in the power of everyone since man has
been made possessed of freewill whether he shall hear us to life or here the demons to destruction ."

That God gave man free will to either choose to follow Christ or remain condemned and reject the message of Christ.
The elect of God are those who choose to follow Christ.
And yes, we know in the scriptures God persuaded people to follow His will for them. Saul, Lot, Moses, Jonah, Noah. They were selected by God to do His will, but you notice these were imperfect men? Their free will often did fight God's drawing them to His will for them, but ultimately they did concede and do as God willed.

This is what we call, the individual election to God's service.

This is the proof text many Calvinists use to insist predetermination of peoples saving election by God's will: 16. You did not choose me, but (AH)I chose you and appointed you that you should go and (AI)bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that (AJ)whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. The Book of John chapter 15

But that scripture tells us God chose these men to be His Apostles. It is not a scripture, when we consider it in context, where we read God saying He chose all who would be saved, and consequently all who would not be.

God predetermined that salvation would be by grace through faith in Christ crucified alone. Thus, all are afforded the opportunity to be saved (Titus 2:11). God never predestined that people would go to hell (2 Peter 3:9). As a matter of fact, hell was purposefully and exclusively prepared for Satan and his angels (Mat 25:41). (Source:https://www.collegeoftheopenbible.com/predestination.html)

You'll like this I think. Please let me know. I think it will bring comfort to anyone who may fear Calvinism's teaching on election is right. (It is not. And it is not Biblical, of God). Fear not.


What I have grown to enjoy about Mr.Flowers Soteriology 101 teachings is, he gives the Calvinist version also and before he gives the proper contextual understanding of scripture. This isn't common in those Calvinist teachers who look to bash Mr. Flowers teachings on YouTube.

 

[Whispered]

Due to a reference made in the above video to Hyper Calvinism. I thought it important to differentiate here. There is a difference between Calvinism and "Hyper-Calvinism". Though it would sound like a Hyper Calvinist is a really energetic Fundamentalist Calvinist.
And this was discussed earlier and even a quote about preaching and people not having the ability to understand, a Calvinist teacher quote shared earlier.


What is Hyper-Calvinism?

Hyper-Calvinism is not a term used for those who are overly passionate about Calvinism. That’s actually what we refer to as “cage stage Calvinism.” When understood properly, hyper-Calvinism is a technical term for an extreme and unbiblical view that rejects any need for Christians to engage in missions and evangelism. Simply put, hyper-Calvinists forbid the preaching of the gospel and the offer of salvation to the non-elect. Such people believe that God has chosen people in Christ in eternity past and will bring about His results without the help of His people.
Calvinism Is Not Hyper-Calvinism

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Go back to my post #802 and click on the link provided. Professor Flowers is ‘Skandelon’ who said “Knowing God is a ‘personal achievement’.”

and

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
He’s a heretic who said knowing the Christ was a personal achievement.

so in response to first post addressed to me and with regards to second post and the video wherein Flowers is described as a heretic by resident Calvinists here and because I said I would, my response after reading:

here is the question asked by Flowers to preacher4truth

God said, "Let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight," declares the LORD."

How do you define boasting as it is used by God in this text?

but really you have to back up the conversation or this is simply an out of context remark like cherry picking once again

Flowers also makes this comment to another poster who argues against him


The Biblicist said: ↑

I understand that Christ's life and death is the SOLE basis of meriting justification before God.​

​

Flowers:
EXACTLY, and that is true regardless of whether our faith is a free response or a divinely determined one. Do you understand?

Biblicist:​

Thus ultimately the human will is credited with the determinate cause of salvation​

Flowers:
As explained in the other thread, this is a false statement, as even those who believe and repent could justly be condemned for sin. It is only by His Grace that those who choose to believe are actually saved. His gracious choice to save the repentant is the determinative factor. Only if you presume God's choice to save the repentant is a given (or is somehow deserved) is this statement true, and that is not what we believe.

and then with regards to the boasting comments...your direct accusation of blasphemy comes from that...he states


P4T, I'm still waiting on your definition of boasting that makes God's words acceptable to you and your system....

Waiting...

I am satisfied he is not saying what you and p4t say. this goes back to 2014.....smh

basically, Flowers was a Calvinist who has left Calvinism and p4t states he was never a Calvinist

he states that because in true Calvinism, a Calvinist would ALWAYS remain within Calvinism

I hope everybody gets what I just said above because it's pretty eye opening

it's the fine print of Calvinsim

I see in the thread that was linked to, the same type of exchange we have right here

I expect to find much the same if I research any other claims of heresy or what have you with regards to what Flowers is saying

I'll let you know if I come across anything I consider heretical

probably don't hold your breath

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

But no one can know the Christ but via the word of God. That’s the thrust of Paul’s writing in Romans 10:14-17.

@7seasrekeyed disagreed with this? Wow! Faith comes by the word[Romans 10:17]. We are justified by faith[Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8]. To be justified means to be declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of the Christ. So ppl can be declared righteous w/o ever hearing the word, never knowing who the Christ is? Wow, in ppl’s attempts to push themselves away from Calvinism, they run smack into hyper-Calvinism. 🤯🙄

She’s saying they can come to saving faith via external means, external in that they can come to faith outside of the word of God. That’s heresy.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

So what forced them to sin or rebel? God or themselves? If they was created without blemish then what caused them to fall away?

They did it themselves. No one made them do it. You’re asking me questions the Bible doesn’t speak about. I have a rule of thumb, when the Bible doesn’t speak, neither do I.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

I believe souls will be in Heaven. Souls are spirit and thus immaterial.

But they will have a real body my friend. There is a resurrection of the Just and unjust. And that doesn’t mean fair and unfair. You said God is just, but meant it as Him being fair. Him being just is Him doing what is right[Genesis 18:25].

 

[7seasrekeyed]

@7seasrekeyed disagreed with this? Wow! Faith comes by the word[Romans 10:17]. We are justified by faith[Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8]. To be justified means to be declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of the Christ. So ppl can be declared righteous w/o ever hearing the word, never knowing who the Christ is? Wow, in ppl’s attempts to push themselves away from Calvinism, they run smack into hyper-Calvinism. 🤯🙄

if you have a conscience, you should turn it on cause I don't think it's working

how else could you lie with such abandonnment?

this is what really went down:


Aug 27, 20177,9073,369113




Today at 1:20 PM
#986
Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:
But no one can know the Christ but via the word of God. That’s the thrust of Paul’s writing in Romans 10:14-17.
if I could have put a dozen x's on this particular post I would have
[/QUOTE]

My response which perhaps you actually cannot understand since you deny the Holy Spirit and prefer Calvin to guide you instead

if you have the Holy Spirit indwelling, and when a person accepts Christ they are sealed with the Spirit of God, how can you possibly assert that God is only outside of you in a book?

then again, you guys are cessationists after all so what would I expect


you stated there is no way to know Christ but through the Bible

that, is actually only the beginning

do you or not have the Holy Spirit inside of you with whom you can cry 'Abba Father'

you can know ABOUT Jesus from the Bible but you can only really KNOW Him through the Spirit of God

you bristle because you know you are a cessationist

your loss

actually you are wrong though.

the Bible states that FAITH COMES BY HEARING...not as you say through the Bible

the Bible was being written when that was penned and only today is the Bible so widely available

 

[Whispered]

But they will have a real body my friend. There is a resurrection of the Just and unjust. And that doesn’t mean fair and unfair. You said God is just, but meant it as Him being fair. Him being just is Him doing what is right[Genesis 18:25].

You believe we will have fleshly bodies in Heaven?