Is unconditional election biblical?
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Yes so I was assuming that if your definition came from scripture then equally your unbelief in free will was from scripture. Just trying to understand because it is one thing to deny free will and usually the alternative is God's absolute control. Self will was a new term so I was trying to understand either the human is free or not. Cannot be both.
Very true. The choice to respond is mankind's responsibility.
Very true. The choice to respond is mankind's responsibility.
My friend, the Christ in John 8 so plainly stated this...32 “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” Man's will is not free but is enslaved to Satan, self, and sin. As the Christ later said...34" “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." Here He is talking about the lost being slaves to sin. Later, Apostle Paul wrote..Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. He has freed us from the slavery that Satan had us in. Even our wills were enslaved to him. Later in Romans 6 Paul wrote...17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Even after being freed from sin, we are still slaves...slaves of Christ and His righteousness.
You can't do anything to obtain God's mercy, nor could you "do it God's way" which tells the tale: you think you did something to gain salvation.
You didn't. You couldn't.
So, I will present the Good News, not your #fakenews.
Here is God's way:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18.
God does this, not you, and the above shows his way of doing it. You have not one thing to do with determining it upon yourself.
But of course, believing you've met some conditions for God to choose you does away with any concept of Biblical truth in salvation whatsoever. As long as one believes that they were elected because they met the conditions to receive such grace, then it isn't even grace at all. Grace is unmerited favor, given in mercy.
Conditional election, a false gospel, your gospel, erases grace and makes salvation a reward for meeting conditions, thus salvation cannot be of grace any longer. That is exactly the definition of conditional election.
So, in other words, you and others have claimed God chose you because you did something. That's salvation by works, not salvation by grace.
To the contrary, Scripture teaches we are saved by grace, unmerited favor, and not because we met conditions, because in fact, while lost, we could never meet any of God's conditions, and because his only condition is him and his grace in the first place.
Yep. Salvation is all of him. You teach contrary, but even so, Soli Deo Gloria!!!
Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
You didn't. You couldn't.
So, I will present the Good News, not your #fakenews.
Here is God's way:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18.
God does this, not you, and the above shows his way of doing it. You have not one thing to do with determining it upon yourself.
But of course, believing you've met some conditions for God to choose you does away with any concept of Biblical truth in salvation whatsoever. As long as one believes that they were elected because they met the conditions to receive such grace, then it isn't even grace at all. Grace is unmerited favor, given in mercy.
Conditional election, a false gospel, your gospel, erases grace and makes salvation a reward for meeting conditions, thus salvation cannot be of grace any longer. That is exactly the definition of conditional election.
So, in other words, you and others have claimed God chose you because you did something. That's salvation by works, not salvation by grace.
To the contrary, Scripture teaches we are saved by grace, unmerited favor, and not because we met conditions, because in fact, while lost, we could never meet any of God's conditions, and because his only condition is him and his grace in the first place.
Yep. Salvation is all of him. You teach contrary, but even so, Soli Deo Gloria!!!
Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
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Why say if you continue in my word? As if there is a choice?
A theological slave in context to sin doesn't mean you are absent of mental free will. It just means you cannot save yourself. This is what we call grace and salvation in Christ. [1] You are dead in sin [2]and we all are without excuse [3]. We all must choose how we respond to the Spirit. The Spirit first seeks us out and we must choose to believe [4] or deny the Spirit. [5][6]
[1] Ephesians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
[2] Ephesians 2:1-3 New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
[3] Romans 1:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
[4] John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
[4] John 6:35 New International Version (NIV)
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
[5] James 4:4-5 New International Version (NIV)
4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us[b]?
[6] Joshua 24:15 New International Version (NIV)
15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
Remember, the Christ was confronted with many who walked with Him for a while, but later would walk away. This is how He separated the sheep from the goats parading around as sheep. In John 10 the Christ said 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” Earlier in this chapter He stated 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." That is what He meant by "if you continue in My word."
But man is not able to positively respond to the gospel UNLESS God first removes the blindness that has him blinded. Where and who does this blindness come from? in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] Unless God first comes in and does this, they can not truly see the gospel or even see this “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[John 3:3] That is why God must first quicken them before they can positively respond to the gospel. You have them freeing themselves and coming to Him to be saved. We have God first freeing them to come unto Him. You have the effect before the cause. We have the cause and then the effect.
But man is not able to positively respond to the gospel UNLESS God first removes the blindness that has him blinded. Where and who does this blindness come from? in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] Unless God first comes in and does this, they can not truly see the gospel or even see this “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[John 3:3] That is why God must first quicken them before they can positively respond to the gospel. You have them freeing themselves and coming to Him to be saved. We have God first freeing them to come unto Him. You have the effect before the cause. We have the cause and then the effect.
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What you are saying is fallen mankind is free to come to the Christ to be freed or not. So, if they come to be to be freed, they are already freed. So, if they come to Him to be freed, and they are already freed, then the Christ wasted His breath saying "And the truth shall make you free." Freeing those who are already freed makes as much sense as a football bat.
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Fallen but not robots or puppets. Was Adam chosen? What caused him to sin?
Yes we are free in our choice between good and evil. How we respond the God's moral law and how we respond to God. Fallen but not totally depraved. Total depravity is a false doctrine.
Your ramblings are shortsighted with assumptions that you understand my beliefs.
So Jesus said and the truth shall set you free. Free from what? Condemnation of sin. Still doesn't negate the choice of belief.
Yes we are free in our choice between good and evil. How we respond the God's moral law and how we respond to God. Fallen but not totally depraved. Total depravity is a false doctrine.
Your ramblings are shortsighted with assumptions that you understand my beliefs.
So Jesus said and the truth shall set you free. Free from what? Condemnation of sin. Still doesn't negate the choice of belief.
In the original language you have two different words for faith. Faith as in gift or power from God or faith as in belief on the humans behalf. This is why many translations put belief and some put faith.
God is the cause as he draws all unto himself. But by no means does he force belief lol
God is the cause as he draws all unto himself. But by no means does he force belief lol
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maybe i should just post a bunch of threads about man doing stuff here like you guys do with your calvinist "proof texts"
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (opposite of what calvinism teaches in romans 9 that vessel cant do anything, jeremiah 18 confirms what 2 tim 2:21 is saying)
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
hundreds of verses.
what was that english word bollocks. thats it. i heard it was invented to describe calvinism. yes its confirmed.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (opposite of what calvinism teaches in romans 9 that vessel cant do anything, jeremiah 18 confirms what 2 tim 2:21 is saying)
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
hundreds of verses.
what was that english word bollocks. thats it. i heard it was invented to describe calvinism. yes its confirmed.
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