Is unconditional election biblical?
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Isaac is a person. Jacob and Esau are people. Moses is a person. Pharaoh is a person.
the one who will ask how does He still find fault? is a person.
clay: people
vessels of mercy are liked to "us" -- people. objects of His mercy.
nations are made of people.
a nation hardened is made of hardened people.
mercy shown to a nation is mercy shown to people.
all this is just to say,
i find it weird when people say there's nothing about people in Romans 9.
the one who will ask how does He still find fault? is a person.
but indeed, o man
(Romans 9:19)
a man = a person. clay: people
vessels of mercy are liked to "us" -- people. objects of His mercy.
nations are made of people.
a nation hardened is made of hardened people.
mercy shown to a nation is mercy shown to people.
all this is just to say,
i find it weird when people say there's nothing about people in Romans 9.
You can't do anything to obtain God's mercy, nor could you "do it God's way" which tells the tale: you think you did something to gain salvation.
You didn't. You couldn't.
So, I will present the Good News, not your #fakenews.
Here is God's way:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18.
God does this, not you, and the above shows his way of doing it. You have not one thing to do with determining it upon yourself.
But of course, believing you've met some conditions for God to choose you does away with any concept of Biblical truth in salvation whatsoever. As long as one believes that they were elected because they met the conditions to receive such grace, then it isn't even grace at all. Grace is unmerited favor, given in mercy.
Conditional election, a false gospel, your gospel, erases grace and makes salvation a reward for meeting conditions, thus salvation cannot be of grace any longer. That is exactly the definition of conditional election.
So, in other words, you and others have claimed God chose you because you did something. That's salvation by works, not salvation by grace.
To the contrary, Scripture teaches we are saved by grace, unmerited favor, and not because we met conditions, because in fact, while lost, we could never meet any of God's conditions, and because his only condition is him and his grace in the first place.
Yep. Salvation is all of him. You teach contrary, but even so, Soli Deo Gloria!!!
Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
You didn't. You couldn't.
So, I will present the Good News, not your #fakenews.
Here is God's way:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18.
God does this, not you, and the above shows his way of doing it. You have not one thing to do with determining it upon yourself.
But of course, believing you've met some conditions for God to choose you does away with any concept of Biblical truth in salvation whatsoever. As long as one believes that they were elected because they met the conditions to receive such grace, then it isn't even grace at all. Grace is unmerited favor, given in mercy.
Conditional election, a false gospel, your gospel, erases grace and makes salvation a reward for meeting conditions, thus salvation cannot be of grace any longer. That is exactly the definition of conditional election.
So, in other words, you and others have claimed God chose you because you did something. That's salvation by works, not salvation by grace.
To the contrary, Scripture teaches we are saved by grace, unmerited favor, and not because we met conditions, because in fact, while lost, we could never meet any of God's conditions, and because his only condition is him and his grace in the first place.
Yep. Salvation is all of him. You teach contrary, but even so, Soli Deo Gloria!!!
Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
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Free will is a terrible term. It should be self will
No small wonder there are endless debates about things which are wrongly named.
No small wonder there are endless debates about things which are wrongly named.
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He was never a former Calvinist as some around him have attested.
If so, he left Calvinism. That makes him a former Calvinist.
And not directed at you, just to point out, there is a difference between free will and self determination.
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Where is your source for this definition? Self will? Is this just your definition or is there a reference? Law of morality evidently shows we are responsible for our choices. We choose to obey God through his natural revelation or his written revelation. The Spirit works in both and our will is either to respond or rebel.
Fromperso
If you knew my life story you would plainly understand that I indeed was selected. My spiritual journey started at a very young age. Some are chosen, the others have a choice, its as simple as that.
Are you some Pentecostal/charismatic guy who claims he's one of the special ones who has been elected, but the rest are not?
The individuals I have heard who claim such things are Pentecostals or charismatics, and claim they are the "elect", part of the top tier of Christianity, and the rest "may" have a chance at salvation
This is a two-tier salvation system, and I reject it. I heard it from a charismatic preacher in the chat room part, and it's obvious he thinks he's one of the top tier apostle guys.
The individuals I have heard who claim such things are Pentecostals or charismatics, and claim they are the "elect", part of the top tier of Christianity, and the rest "may" have a chance at salvation
This is a two-tier salvation system, and I reject it. I heard it from a charismatic preacher in the chat room part, and it's obvious he thinks he's one of the top tier apostle guys.
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He was using that analogy in how God elects ppl. That flies in the face of Deuteronomy 7: 7 "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. There was nothing special in those that God chose from before the creation of the world[Ephesians 1:4] that was missing in those He justly left in their sins to stand before Him on the day of judgment. What Professor Flowers was stating was that 'choice' meat draws us to them because they are the choicest of meats. He then tries to fit that analogy into how God elected those who are saved. That is not how God did it. The elect were no more 'choice' than the non-elect. God elected His ppl based upon Himself, not ourselves.
So what your saying is that you have decided from scripture that free will doesn't exist? Correct?
Also. Is it true.
That belief in God is God's elected while unbelief is God's predestined unelected? Or that mankind is totally depraved and God chooses some to do good while others he predestined to be evil?
Also. Is it true.
That belief in God is God's elected while unbelief is God's predestined unelected? Or that mankind is totally depraved and God chooses some to do good while others he predestined to be evil?