Is unconditional election biblical?

[John146]

Its time to whip this one out again:

Ha ha!

But I didn’t see anything in the video concerning Calvin’s belief on infant baptism and how God is the author of sin...

All = all of the elect
Whosoever = whosoever of the elect
Everyone = everyone of the elect
World = world of the elect
Etc...

I think a Calvinist should rewrite the Bible to reflect these appropriate changes.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Hi Sackcloth, could you quote /cite/find me a verse that Abraham looked towards the cross? perhaps we can discuss.

Thank you.

Romans 4:3-5 King James Version (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Okay, what righteousness did Abraham have at this time? It couldn’t be his own, as that was a used ‘cloth’(I’ll leave it there ). So, it has to be the imputed righteousness of the Christ. God told him that the nations would be blessed by his seed. Galatians 3:16 tells us who this Seed is.

The others, @posthuman, @PennEd, & @Grandpa all gave you the answer to your question.

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

They believe this because they think it would be unfair for the Potter to have right over the clay, and this belief is rooted in the belief that the clay is inherently deserving. It struck me - even when i was young and had never heard anyone talk about such things - as being vain, and mixing up the proper station of God and man. No matter what God chooses to do, i am never in a position to judge Him.

And in Romans 9:20 Paul minces zero words and tells the accuser to just shut up already!

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

Who's Justin the Martyr? I've never seen him in the Bible. Nor Calvin either.

I brought Justin Martyr(and the other ECF’s) into this discussion to shoot down the idea that the TULIP was not taught until Augustine of Hippo started it. That’s a bald faced lie. Several others of the ECF’s taught it. There’s a link I provided in an earlier post. Please click and read it and see for yourself.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

i did read the quote and understood the quote and disproved what he said by quoting just one from justin martyr i dont need to go back and look up quotes from each of them this isnt a moderated debate, ive read the quotes before already. i read it in context as well. these guys are arguing in favor of free choice because otherwise nobody can be rewarded for works thats it. i dont care about your parroting.

all you calvinists are like clones of each other, its like a cult. all talk the same, use the same words, behave the same. its sickening. i think it maybe because you are trying to copy/mimic/pretend to be james whitelie and other debate idols. thats what you love is debate. debate is preaching the gospel in calvinism in practical terms.

you got too excited about my honesty and didnt read what i said. unlucky

true

when scripture doesn't prove the renderings or they cannot apply Calvin to the truth of scripture, then the 'church fathers' are called upon to prove them right

it's actually a formula you can find online

if this doesn't work, then try this and if that doesn't work try this etc etc

they are taught to do it and it is right in keeping with the religious 'system' invented by calvin himself

no Holy Spirit, no desire to actually persuade if you think you are right...just pounding away at the same thing over and over and resorting to mocking and at time name calling

but ask any one of them and they will totally deny all of the above

but you can find it online sure 'nuff

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The above is the epitome of why there is so much ignorance in the church. "You're wrong, all you said is wrong. I haven't even looked at what you said." It is the logical fallacy of Alleged Certainty. It is utterly foolish.

Oh, the other thing is, this poster @Melach hasn't read or understood the quote of Martyr. It concisely shows he was certainly what others call "Calvinistic."

you're kidding, right?

this thread is 38 pages long and it is only one of several

we have all seen the continious parade of quotes, memes and church fathers

get real

you have nothing new to say that anyone would or should need to look up previously overated inclusions in y'alls posts

 

[Hevosmies]

Ha ha!

But I didn’t see anything in the video concerning Calvin’s belief on infant baptism and how God is the author of sin...

All = all of the elect
Whosoever = whosoever of the elect
Everyone = everyone of the elect
World = world of the elect
Etc...

I think a Calvinist should rewrite the Bible to reflect these appropriate changes.

Lets make one thing clear: I DONT CARE what Calvin believed. He is IRRELEVANT to me. I never quote him, I never speak about him, couldn't care less about the man.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The above is the epitome of why there is so much ignorance in the church. "You're wrong, all you said is wrong. I haven't even looked at what you said." It is the logical fallacy of Alleged Certainty. It is utterly foolish.

Oh, the other thing is, this poster @Melach hasn't read or understood the quote of Martyr. It concisely shows he was certainly what others call "Calvinistic."

again, the general observation of a Calvinist (who denies being one yet has basically outlined the same beliefs so whatever) that there is 'so much ignorance' in the church.

where?

well among anyone who is not persuaded of the TULIP outline of Calvins's plan for your life

however, if non Calvinists are saved, who are you actually mocking?

who keeps the believer? Calvins' outlines or God himself through His Spirit?

you might as well start a thread entitled 'All Calvin all the Time'

 

[Whispered]

you quoted an article. i recognized the phrasing in it because i have read 1 Corinthians. i retrieved the verse and posted it and asked what you thought of it.
that's not me saying "i believe this means such and such"
that's me saying, "this is a passage that idea is based on, how would you interpret it?"




your interpretation, which you stated, is that the presence of at least one believer in a marriage makes it 'legitimate' and makes the children 'legitimate'
your own words.

the opposite of legitimate is illegitimate. you seem to be saying, in fact you said, without a believer in a marriage, the marriage is illegitimate and the children are illegitimate. i.e. all children of two unbelieving parents are bastards. all marriages where neither partner is a believer are adultery. illegitimate vs. legitimate.
it's a direct implication of what you said. it's what you literally said.
do you not believe that? did you misspeak?

this is what you said:



do you stand behind it or not?

Wow, do you square dance as much as you rework words in peoples posts?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Okay, what righteousness did Abraham have at this time? It couldn’t be his own, as that was a used ‘cloth’(I’ll leave it there ). So, it has to be the imputed righteousness of the Christ. God told him that the nations would be blessed by his seed. Galatians 3:16 tells us who this Seed is.

The others, @posthuman, @PennEd, & @Grandpa all gave you the answer to your question.

actually, scripture states that Abraham's faith was accounted for righteousness

3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4

still the same today

faith in Christ's finished work on the cross on our behalf equates salvation

we do have imputed righteousness through that very work and positionally in Christ we are the righteousness of God

God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
II Corinthians 5:21

notice it was Abraham's faith as scripture states...not the faith God gave to Him

well anyway most people do notice that and do not believe God makes their mind up for them

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Wow, do you square dance as much as you rework words in peoples posts?

sorry?

which one of them is this addressed to?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

“A true Christian is one who has not only peace of conscience, but war within. He may be known by his warfare as well as by his peace.”
--JC Ryle

And the peace of God, surpassing all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:7

no one has to have a war within

there is enough in the spiritual realm going on that we need the peace God gives

I could understand warfare within among those adhering to TULIP as it is contrary to the Bible and the gospel

Peace I leave with you; My peace I give unto you, not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. John 14:27

 

[Whispered]

so, that's you accusing them of not preaching the gospel.
not them saying "we shouldn't preach the gospel"

i'm wondering if it's more than just an accusation. i listen to about a dozen sermons every week, some reformed, some not. i've never heard anyone say 'we shouldn't bother preaching the gospel' except people like you, who are attacking this TULIP business. i've never heard anyone who believes it say anything like that.

can you point me to someone who does believe all that, and actually says what you accuse them of saying?

""We complain today that ministers do not know how to preach; but is it not equally true that our congregations do not know how to hear?"(JI Packer, A Quest For Godliness , 254).

 

[Melach]

again, the general observation of a Calvinist (who denies being one yet has basically outlined the same beliefs so whatever) that there is 'so much ignorance' in the church.

where?

well among anyone who is not persuaded of the TULIP outline of Calvins's plan for your life

however, if non Calvinists are saved, who are you actually mocking?

who keeps the believer? Calvins' outlines or God himself through His Spirit?

you might as well start a thread entitled 'All Calvin all the Time'

yeah they always say non-calvinists are saved. thats a mistake. i thinkt hey should be more honest and consistent and say only tulip believers are saved. because clearly God hasnt revelealed even basics of salvation mechanics to us non-tulipers so how can we be saved? tulip knowledge should be part of the salvation package when you win the grace lottery.

they usually only say that i suspect because when they got saved they didnt be calvinist. maybe because you are more likely to get hit by lightning than run into calvinist evangelist. hahahaha.

anyway only reason i believe calvinists are saved is because i dont tihnk you need to have all the mechanics right to be saved. i believe its false but i also think God sees people's heart.

 

[Whispered]

sorry?

which one of them is this addressed to?

The one I quoted, posthuman. You may not see that if you have them set to "ignore".
It's so strange to me to see my post dissected by someone who intersperses their projections onto it so as to the accuse me of saying what they wrote, imagined, was worthy of their ridicule.

In formal debate there's a term for that I'm sure.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

yeah they always say non-calvinists are saved. thats a mistake. i thinkt hey should be more honest and consistent and say only tulip believers are saved. because clearly God hasnt revelealed even basics of salvation mechanics to us non-tulipers so how can we be saved? tulip knowledge should be part of the salvation package when you win the grace lottery.

they usually only say that i suspect because when they got saved they didnt be calvinist. maybe because you are more likely to get hit by lightning than run into calvinist evangelist. hahahaha.

anyway only reason i believe calvinists are saved is because i dont tihnk you need to have all the mechanics right to be saved. i believe its false but i also think God sees people's heart.

right

 

[Whispered]

yeah they always say non-calvinists are saved. thats a mistake. i thinkt hey should be more honest and consistent and say only tulip believers are saved. because clearly God hasnt revelealed even basics of salvation mechanics to us non-tulipers so how can we be saved? tulip knowledge should be part of the salvation package when you win the grace lottery.

they usually only say that i suspect because when they got saved they didnt be calvinist. maybe because you are more likely to get hit by lightning than run into calvinist evangelist. hahahaha.

anyway only reason i believe calvinists are saved is because i dont tihnk you need to have all the mechanics right to be saved. i believe its false but i also think God sees people's heart.

I would suggest the moment you read someone who claims they are Calvinist say non-Calvinists are saved, you know you're speaking to someone who is not actually Calvinist. Because Calvinism is elitist in that Calvinists believe they are the elect of God. And that means they are the only one's predetermined by God to enter His grace, against their will, and then be made to have faith, again, against their will, becasue it is all God's doing. Not their own. Because Total Depravity tells them they are incapable of coming into grace or holding faith by their own will, choice.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

The one I quoted, posthuman. You may not see that if you have them set to "ignore".
It's so strange to me to see my post dissected by someone who intersperses their projections onto it so as to the accuse me of saying what they wrote, imagined, was worthy of their ridicule.

In formal debate there's a term for that I'm sure.

oh right

well I put him on ignore and then promptly forgot he was in here because of his outrageous way of twisting and answering questions with questions and then saying the other person does not answer

I wonder if he knows he does that...some people really do not

carry on

 

[calibob]

I brought Justin Martyr(and the other ECF’s) into this discussion to shoot down the idea that the TULIP was not taught until Augustine of Hippo started it. That’s a bald faced lie. Several others of the ECF’s taught it. There’s a link I provided in an earlier post. Please click and read it and see for yourself.

Uh, concerning the bible I only trust the Bible.

 

[Melach]

I would suggest the moment you read someone who claims they are Calvinist say non-Calvinists are saved, you know you're speaking to someone who is not actually Calvinist.

they have all told me that. maybe the disciples of calvin have been re-trained by their scholarly overlords to appear more friendly to us peasants in the churches?

anyone remember the last time sixpack joe wanted to talk about papyri and codex alexandrius? me neither. they make these apologetics and think people care and its defending the faith debating other religions. thats uselesss. nobody normal person cares about that and talks about it they look at you crazy if say something like that.