Is unconditional election biblical?

[Grandpa]

On my last post, I asked you a question which you completely ignored. I asked, "would you like to comment on the scriptures I provided?" If you are not going to, this discussion is over because I don't like to talk to myself.

The first four sentences of my post were commenting on the scriptures you provided.

I provided more scriptures in addition to yours to point out what I was saying.

Are you really that confused?

 

[Grandpa]

I never said that people elect themselves. It is my take that the Father elected Jesus to be the savior of the world. He is the elect and the chosen one. We are simply chosen in Him when we respond out of our own free will to join the Lord in His victory over sin and death.

Ephesians 1:4 (NASB95)
4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."

Biblical proof: Ps 89:3, Isa 42:1, 43:10, 49:7, Mat. 12:18, Lk 9:35, 23:35.

If you believe God elected us to be saved, then the result is that He is mean, ugly, hateful and untrustworthy because only a hateful deity would create people with the only object of sending them to hell forever just because...

I want nothing to with your deity (god in small caps) because it is man-made

Wow. How sad for you.

If God is God, then to you, and the three who liked your post then He is mean, ugly, hateful and untrustworthy.


But if you elect yourself and you are your own god then you, and the three who liked your post, can trust your god and he is nice and pretty.

Seems really immature to me. Have you read the OT yet?


Its sad, in the extreme, how many people continue to worship their own will. And pat each other on the back when they call God names because they don't understand.


Its ok, I guess. When you finally decide to work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling maybe we can talk.

But if you continue to think that you caused your own salvation by choosing to believe in Christ and choosing to do all the things required for salvation we are going to constantly disagree, because scripture shows us that is not the case.



If I believe God elected us to be saved then that just means I BELIEVE what scripture says.

I believe that Salvation is not of works, not of ourselves. Because scripture says so.

I believe I came to Christ because the Father drew me to Him.


This doesn't cause God to be mean. God has decided to save a few. Like in the time of Noah.

Was God ugly, mean and hateful because He chose Noah and his family and did not save the WHOLE World?

No. Of course not. God has a purpose. We don't see it. That doesn't make God wrong or bad. That makes us ignorant. And when we call God names because of our ignorance it comes pretty close to blasphemy. Its probably just stupidity but blasphemy is pretty close to stupidity as well. Its stupid to blaspheme God. I think we can agree on that.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Chose Jacob, yes, but not for salvation but for the seed line. It Could have been only one of those boys. Again, elect is never used in terms of salvation.

Jesus Christ is God’s elect.
Israel is God’s elect nation.
There are elect angels.
There are the 144,000 elect servants during the tribulation.

Isaiah 65:22-23, THEY shall not build and another inhabit, THEY shall not plant, and another eat, for as the days of a tree are the days of my PEOPLE, and MINE ELECT shall long enjoy the work of THERE hands. THEY shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble, for THEY are the seed of the blesses of the Lord, and THEIR offspring with THEM. Matt 24:31, And he (Jesus Christ) shall send his angels with a great sound of the trumpet, and they shall gather together his (Jesus Christ) elect (people) from the four winds. Luke 18:7, And shall not God avenge his own elect (people), which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with THEM.

 

[Grandpa]

Now then I realized you are from a reformed church.

I wish.

God, in His extreme humor, has seen fit to draw me to Arminian, charismatic churches.

I wish I could combine the worship of the charismatics with the teaching of the reformed.


But their theologies butt heads in too many places. Its probably just arrogant to even think it possible to combine the two.

But I can dream...

 

[John146]

Isaiah 65:22-23, THEY shall not build and another inhabit, THEY shall not plant, and another eat, for as the days of a tree are the days of my PEOPLE, and MINE ELECT shall long enjoy the work of THERE hands. THEY shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble, for THEY are the seed of the blesses of the Lord, and THEIR offspring with THEM. Matt 24:31, And he (Jesus Christ) shall send his angels with a great sound of the trumpet, and they shall gather together his (Jesus Christ) elect (people) from the four winds. Luke 18:7, And shall not God avenge his own elect (people), which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with THEM.

You know this is concerning the Lord’s long term plans for the nation of Israel?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Chose Jacob, yes, but not for salvation but for the seed line. It Could have been only one of those boys. Again, elect is never used in terms of salvation.

Jesus Christ is God’s elect.
Israel is God’s elect nation.
There are elect angels.
There are the 144,000 elect servants during the tribulation.

I appreciate your willingness and dedication to your beliefs to respond to my comments, unlike others on this forum, who find it too difficult to to answer my questions.

 

[Grandpa]

I can see where you had your issues in that beginning.

Jesus made it very simple after suffering a very difficult journey to end up where he was born to belong; on the cross.

All that is required is to hear of that sacrifice, which is part of the Good News of Salvation , since Jesus died taking the sins of the world upon himself there, and believe.
That's it.
And once one believes, they can be Baptized and with the indwelling Holy Spirit work out their living with the Spirit of God leading the way. And that process there is learning to let go and let ones self to trust God's design in one's unique personal life as the life long process of sanctification takes place day after day until there are no more days.

Where Calvinism fails, in my view, in the first part of its processing scriptures so as to create a doctrine labeled, "Calvinism", is when it is unable to consolidate cause.

The cause of Christ was to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. That whosoever believes in Him, that last sacrifice, that legendary and final "scapegoat" and why and for what reason He died, then conquered death, shall be saved from it.

When Christ was born to take the sins of the world, it is inconsistent to then argue He did that to save only those preselected , the foreknown, so that they only would then be saved. Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself but only to save a select number of persons alive in the world?

And this is where Calvinism and RT brings insult to the divinity of God, in my view.

All that doctrinal presupposition concerning God's motives for creating what those doctrines define within themselves as the "elect of God", exist because, for those to be consistent and in context of that doctrines definition of salvation , it would mean God fully intended "in the beginning" to set the damnation exemplar into motion.

And that is why He in His Omniscience did plant the forbidden tree and did let His adversary to enter in. When we learned in the book of Job that that enemy of God cannot do anything if not let to do so by his Creator.
Because, if God foreknew whom He would save before the world was created, that means God would have to preordain that which those elect would need to be saved from.

And per the TULIP formula that carries across the RT doctrinal landscape, that God unconditionally elects those who's name He foreknew to be in His grace, precludes grace by definition, from being a factor for all at all.

Because courteous goodwill, the definition of grace, would not prepare man's damnation after making a list of names the preparer would save from the condition of His own will's making, sin and damnation, and then cause to hold faith in Him those he predestined to save from that. When what it is that is saving select people from is their Creators own premeditated damnation model set into place for the world's people before there was created a world or people.

That all makes God not Savior, but rather something to be saved from.

That God created humans in His image and likeness, to argue God is sovereign, and then argue that humans are but malleable clay vessels devoid of their own capacity to exercise their thoughts and will freely, is inconsistent with divine intervention in the fallen human condition.

When it is all God that means even damnation is all God. Which is precisely the message of the RT doctrines definition of its "elect". For those elect to exist according to God's predetermination so too is God then responsible for predetermining those born to die damned.
That then negates the omni=benevolent characteristic of God, and makes the Devil not that hungry lion seeking souls to devour, but rather makes him just another cog in the wheel of predestination wherein God is the sole actor at the controls. And everything else are just props.

And make no mistake, I am not here to try to argue any RT or Calvinist out of their beliefs. Rather, the more this issue is discussed, the more I put myself in the shoes of one who would adapt the RT/TULIP principle to my own life, thinking on it, trying it on sort of speak in that way while these debates run on for pages. And I have to say, if I really did believe that God was what John Calvin said, and what RT defines through TULIP, I believe I would be better off turning Agnostic. And hoping if there was a higher power it would have the common decency to love its creation more than what RT tells me it does, while calling itself holy.

Cause is the gist of Christianity.

The even that happened 2000 years ago is not the cause of Salvation.

What Christ did 2000 years ago created a way for us to come to Him.

But it is God who draws us to Christ that is the cause of our Salvation.


It is NOT our understanding or trying to conjure up belief within ourselves that causes us to be saved.


If you don't believe that God is in charge and God is Sovereign then you pretty much are agnostic. You worship your own will and your own wishes rather than God. Its what most people do. I don't understand it.


If you just read the bible you would see it, over and over. The story of Cain and Abel. The story of Noah. The story of Jacob and Esau. The story of Israel. The story of Saul and David.

1 Corinthians 1:26-28
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You know this is concerning the Lord’s long term plans for the nation of Israel?

All of the nation of Israel is not of God's elect, only those who are of the Israel that is Jacob, whom God changed his name to be called Israel (Gen 32:28).

 

[John146]

All of the nation of Israel is not of God's elect, only those who are of the Israel that is Jacob, whom God changed his name to be called Israel (Gen 32:28).

God’s elect came through Jacob, that is the seed line of Christ. That’s what the entire OT is about, following the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 and how God elected those to bring it about. Salvation is never the issue.

 

[Grandpa]

God knew but God did not intervene to prevent Adam from choosing sin. Was it Gods will that Adam should sin? If so how is Adam responsible for his sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

God didn't cause Adam to sin.

But by God NOT intervening it was inevitable. And God knew it was inevitable.


Why would Adam NOT be responsible for his sin just because it was inevitable?

Its just a man made precept that because God MUST intervene in order for a person to NOT sin then sin is Gods Fault.

It isn't. It is allowed for Gods Purpose. Which I don't really understand.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Cause is the gist of Christianity.

The even that happened 2000 years ago is not the cause of Salvation.

What Christ did 2000 years ago created a way for us to come to Him.

But it is God who draws us to Christ that is the cause of our Salvation.


It is NOT our understanding or trying to conjure up belief within ourselves that causes us to be saved.


If you don't believe that God is in charge and God is Sovereign then you pretty much are agnostic. You worship your own will and your own wishes rather than God. Its what most people do. I don't understand it.


If you just read the bible you would see it, over and over. The story of Cain and Abel. The story of Noah. The story of Jacob and Esau. The story of Israel. The story of Saul and David.

1 Corinthians 1:26-28
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

In reference to your comment "The event that happened 2000 years ago is not the cause of salvation" (eternal deliverance). Matt 2: 28, For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Greek for remission is "deliverance". Greek for salvation is "deliverance".

 

[ForestGreenCook]

God’s elect came through Jacob, that is the seed line of Christ. That’s what the entire OT is about, following the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 and how God elected those to bring it about. Salvation is never the issue.

Yes, some scriptures containing "elect" is referring to Christ, but there are many that are referring to God's chosen people. (Isaiah 65:22-23), (Matt 24:31) (Luke 18:7) just to name a few.

 

[notuptome]

God didn't cause Adam to sin.

But by God NOT intervening it was inevitable. And God knew it was inevitable.


Why would Adam NOT be responsible for his sin just because it was inevitable?

Its just a man made precept that because God MUST intervene in order for a person to NOT sin then sin is Gods Fault.

It isn't. It is allowed for Gods Purpose. Which I don't really understand.

That's the foundational truth of why man must choose and not act by primal instinct.

Correlation is not causation. Man cannot save himself so God must predestine man to salvation verses man is predestined after he chooses Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Gentle-Warrior]

Wow. How sad for you.

If God is God, then to you, and the three who liked your post then He is mean, ugly, hateful and untrustworthy.


But if you elect yourself and you are your own god then you, and the three who liked your post, can trust your god and he is nice and pretty.

Seems really immature to me. Have you read the OT yet?


Its sad, in the extreme, how many people continue to worship their own will. And pat each other on the back when they call God names because they don't understand.


Its ok, I guess. When you finally decide to work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling maybe we can talk.

But if you continue to think that you caused your own salvation by choosing to believe in Christ and choosing to do all the things required for salvation we are going to constantly disagree, because scripture shows us that is not the case.



If I believe God elected us to be saved then that just means I BELIEVE what scripture says.

I believe that Salvation is not of works, not of ourselves. Because scripture says so.

I believe I came to Christ because the Father drew me to Him.


This doesn't cause God to be mean. God has decided to save a few. Like in the time of Noah.

Was God ugly, mean and hateful because He chose Noah and his family and did not save the WHOLE World?

No. Of course not. God has a purpose. We don't see it. That doesn't make God wrong or bad. That makes us ignorant. And when we call God names because of our ignorance it comes pretty close to blasphemy. Its probably just stupidity but blasphemy is pretty close to stupidity as well. Its stupid to blaspheme God. I think we can agree on that.

You seem to have ignored all my points. Have you stopped to ponder what I have said? You know it takes two to have a discussion.

 

[Melach]

I wish.

God, in His extreme humor, has seen fit to draw me to Arminian, charismatic churches.

I wish I could combine the worship of the charismatics with the teaching of the reformed.


But their theologies butt heads in too many places. Its probably just arrogant to even think it possible to combine the two.

But I can dream...

there are some who mix both. sam storms' church is similar to that. also every african church is charismatic. i have been to african lutheran and baptist services and they were charismatic i couldnt tell difference from regular pentecostal.

 

[fredoheaven]

But the end has yet to come so you might not make it...a Calvinist never has assurance.

They have actually sir, their assurance is to persevere, only that's a pseudo-assurance.

 

[Whispered]

Cause is the gist of Christianity.

The even that happened 2000 years ago is not the cause of Salvation.

I disagree. Jesus had to be born because, without that final sin sacrifice, that perfect unblemished and true blood sacrifice, humanity was doomed to die in our sins with no hope beyond the grave.
The former animal sacrifices by the Israelites so as to cover their sins, did not grant them eternal life due to the spilling of the blood on those altars. Rather, it gave them the understanding that blood was necessary in order to pay for sins.
After Jesus was crucified the new covenant was established wherein Jesus blood was to cover all sins of those who believed. Becasue His sacrifice was to establish that new covenant, and to take upon Himself on that last altar, the cross, the sins of the entire world for all time.
Belief in Jesus as that last blood sacrifice is what causes the repentant believer to be washed clean by that blood.

If God has to take the individual sinner and lead them in essence by the hand to have faith in that, God could have saved himself the trouble of becoming Emmanuel . He could simply do what is claimed to be one now under the dictates Limited Atonement defines, so as to save people by His choice. Especially when what precedes Limited Atonement is the belief that atonment is limited to those God predestined to save in the first place.
He could just do that. No need for a cross, blood sacrifice, washing away of sins, etc... Just God doing what God prescribed for predestined people whenever God was ready to do this. Which didn't happen in the old covenant way of sin repentance. But those people too would then be God's elect when LA pertains only to those God predefined as saved.

6.“But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises” Book of Hebrews chapter 8

But it is God who draws us to Christ that is the cause of our Salvation.

“An expert in the law stood up to test Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?””What is written in the law?” He asked him. “How do you read it?”He answered: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”You’ve answered correctly,” He told him. “Do this and you will live.” Luke 10: 25-28

It is NOT our understanding or trying to conjure up belief within ourselves that causes us to be saved.

The Bible says otherwise.

If you don't believe that God is in charge and God is Sovereign then you pretty much are agnostic. You worship your own will and your own wishes rather than God. Its what most people do. I don't understand it.

Perhaps you might consider you don't understand that because it isn't true.
Your idea of God is that of a total master and puppeteer that works His human creation to do His will only. And saves those puppets He preselected to save before He authored anything that would make salvation necessary.
The rest, that we worship our own will, etc... is just a symptom of holding faith in a Puppeteer while insisting you are blessed to be the elected puppet.
That Puppeteer deity is not the God of the Bible.

That's not what Jesus died to convey. In fact, Jesus wouldn't have to have died at all if TULIP were actually true.

If you just read the bible you would see it, over and over. The story of Cain and Abel. The story of Noah. The story of Jacob and Esau. The story of Israel. The story of Saul and David.

1 Corinthians 1:26-28
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

God has dominion over all His creation, that is true. However, to argue that God then controls, according to His divine will and planning, all that occurs anywhere at all, is to make the Genesis of the world's human population the nexus of God's self gratification.

When all of creation is of God and contains God, God would then be saving himself from himself were TULIP true.

TULIP is blasphemy.

 

[Grandpa]

I disagree. Jesus had to be born because, without that final sin sacrifice, that perfect unblemished and true blood sacrifice, humanity was doomed to die in our sins with no hope beyond the grave.
The former animal sacrifices by the Israelites so as to cover their sins, did not grant them eternal life due to the spilling of the blood on those altars. Rather, it gave them the understanding that blood was necessary in order to pay for sins.
After Jesus was crucified the new covenant was established wherein Jesus blood was to cover all sins of those who believed. Becasue His sacrifice was to establish that new covenant, and to take upon Himself on that last altar, the cross, the sins of the entire world for all time.
Belief in Jesus as that last blood sacrifice is what causes the repentant believer to be washed clean by that blood.

If God has to take the individual sinner and lead them in essence by the hand to have faith in that, God could have saved himself the trouble of becoming Emmanuel . He could simply do what is claimed to be one now under the dictates Limited Atonement defines, so as to save people by His choice. Especially when what precedes Limited Atonement is the belief that atonment is limited to those God predestined to save in the first place.
He could just do that. No need for a cross, blood sacrifice, washing away of sins, etc... Just God doing what God prescribed for predestined people whenever God was ready to do this. Which didn't happen in the old covenant way of sin repentance. But those people too would then be God's elect when LA pertains only to those God predefined as saved.

6.“But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises” Book of Hebrews chapter 8

This is the perfect example of worshipping your own will and wishes INSTEAD of reading the bible.

The Lord Jesus says in His Own Words, Without Me you can do nothing.

"If God is the one that chooses, then our will, that we all worship, means nothing." Yes. Bingo.

“An expert in the law stood up to test Him, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?””What is written in the law?” He asked him. “How do you read it?”He answered: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”You’ve answered correctly,” He told him. “Do this and you will live.”

Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The Bible says otherwise.

That's what you wish for. But wishing doesn't make it true.

Perhaps you might consider you don't understand that because it isn't true.
Your idea of God is that of a total master and puppeteer that works His human creation to do His will only. And saves those puppets He preselected to save before He authored anything that would make salvation necessary.
The rest, that we worship our own will, etc... is just a symptom of holding faith in a Puppeteer while insisting you are blessed to be the elected puppet.
That Puppeteer deity is not the God of the Bible.

That's not what Jesus died to convey. In fact, Jesus wouldn't have to have died at all if TULIP were actually true.

I don't understand how people can read the bible THEN come to the conclusion that it is by their own WILL and their own Strength and Understanding they are saved.

Unless they just missed the whole boat and they are reading only bits and pieces and not really understanding that either.

God has dominion over all His creation, that is true. However, to argue that God then controls, according to His divine will and planning, all that occurs anywhere at all, is to make the Genesis of the world's human population the nexus of God's self gratification.

When all of creation is of God and contains God, God would then be saving himself from himself were TULIP true.

TULIP is blasphemy.

TULIP is only blasphemy against those who worship their own will and strength.

You know, all those people who boast about how righteous they are by their own work and how they have made all those good decisions to MAKE God save them. God basically owes them Blessing and Salvation because they followed all the instructions in just the right way, according to their own will and understanding.

And if they could just make everyone else follow those same instructions in just the same understanding as them then God will owe them Salvation and Blessing too.

What a joke.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


Its all in the bible. You just have to read it. And when you find you have been chosen there is no boasting in your own will, there is no boasting in your own understanding, there is no boasting in your own strength. It all comes from God for His Own Purpose. The only thing an elect person can boast in is in the Strength and Wisdom of God.

 

[UnderGrace]

This is the perfect example of worshipping your own will and wishes INSTEAD of reading the bible.

The Lord Jesus says in His Own Words, Without Me you can do nothing.

"If God is the one that chooses, then our will, that we all worship, means nothing." Yes. Bingo.


Acts 4:10-12
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


That's what you wish for. But wishing doesn't make it true.



I don't understand how people can read the bible THEN come to the conclusion that it is by their own WILL and their own Strength and Understanding they are saved.

Unless they just missed the whole boat and they are reading only bits and pieces and not really understanding that either.





TULIP is only blasphemy against those who worship their own will and strength.

You know, all those people who boast about how righteous they are by their own work and how they have made all those good decisions to MAKE God save them. God basically owes them Blessing and Salvation because they followed all the instructions in just the right way, according to their own will and understanding.

And if they could just make everyone else follow those same instructions in just the same understanding as them then God will owe them Salvation and Blessing too.

What a joke.

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


Its all in the bible. You just have to read it. And when you find you have been chosen there is no boasting in your own will, there is no boasting in your own understanding, there is no boasting in your own strength. It all comes from God for His Own Purpose. The only thing an elect person can boast in is in the Strength and Wisdom of God.

Except for that salvation is not received by an act of our will so that point is moot.

That is the mistake made by both sides of the argument.

Read Calvin he actually had it right, not sure why it has been twisted beyond what he stated.

 

[Grandpa]

Except for that salvation is not received by an act of our will so that point is moot.

That is the mistake made by both sides of the argument.

Read Calvin he actually had it right, not sure why it has been twisted beyond what he stated.

I knew you were a Secret Calvinist...