Is unconditional election biblical?
- Thread starter UnitedWithChrist
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
But where you err in that regard is to cherry pick verses that you believe "harmonize" with what is already errant doctrine. And, you are not consistent in your remarks about the doctrine(s) you defend from time to time.
We are not to have our own interpretation of the scriptures that contradict the mission and message of Christ.
What appears to be happening in what is construed as harmony is, pasting scriptures together to say what you need them to say so as to sustain what you believe.
That's not proper exegesis.
We are not to have our own interpretation of the scriptures that contradict the mission and message of Christ.
What appears to be happening in what is construed as harmony is, pasting scriptures together to say what you need them to say so as to sustain what you believe.
That's not proper exegesis.
-
1
- Show all
All the people whom God has decided to save will be saved.
God will not end the world until all who He has willed to be saved are saved.
Obviously, not all men are saved so Salvation coming to all men MUST mean those men who God has elected. All elect men.
So, all those scriptures are true, just probably not in the way YOU think they are true.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 1:27-30
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Your intepretation of scriptures is flawed because you think that people elect themselves and work their way into Gods Good Grace, based on flawed understanding of a few verses. If you read the WHOLE BIBLE you will see God choosing people and rejecting others ALL OVER THE PLACE. This idea is only offensive to people who think they can control God by their actions and their own will. The thought that God MUST give Salvation to someone because of their supposed obedience to their own understanding of scripture is error in the extreme.
No flesh shall glory in His Presence.
God will not end the world until all who He has willed to be saved are saved.
Obviously, not all men are saved so Salvation coming to all men MUST mean those men who God has elected. All elect men.
So, all those scriptures are true, just probably not in the way YOU think they are true.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 Corinthians 1:27-30
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Your intepretation of scriptures is flawed because you think that people elect themselves and work their way into Gods Good Grace, based on flawed understanding of a few verses. If you read the WHOLE BIBLE you will see God choosing people and rejecting others ALL OVER THE PLACE. This idea is only offensive to people who think they can control God by their actions and their own will. The thought that God MUST give Salvation to someone because of their supposed obedience to their own understanding of scripture is error in the extreme.
No flesh shall glory in His Presence.
-
1
- Show all
Mmmm…. Agree to disagree.
You think Adam surprised God in the garden? C'mon man.
Agreed.
If you didn't put "against God" in there I would probably agree.
Who has resisted His Will?
This is part of a much bigger conversation that would involve probably taking some latitude with scripture.
But suffice to say that after the fall of Adam man is without hope in his own will and his own strength. Only God can get him out of his predicament.
You think Adam surprised God in the garden? C'mon man.
Agreed.
If you didn't put "against God" in there I would probably agree.
Who has resisted His Will?
This is part of a much bigger conversation that would involve probably taking some latitude with scripture.
But suffice to say that after the fall of Adam man is without hope in his own will and his own strength. Only God can get him out of his predicament.
Why would people be told to work out their Salvation with fear and trembling if no one has salvation until they endure to the end?
The reason I am a "Calvinist" is because I have worked out my Salvation with fear and trembling.
I was just like all of you at the beginning. Thinking that I was the cause of God moving to give me Salvation based on how good and clever with scripture I was.
I think once you find out that God is in Charge and you are NOT, it is a really humbling thing. And a blessing on top of it, for people who think they have to control everything or it will all come tumbling down.
The reason I am a "Calvinist" is because I have worked out my Salvation with fear and trembling.
I was just like all of you at the beginning. Thinking that I was the cause of God moving to give me Salvation based on how good and clever with scripture I was.
I think once you find out that God is in Charge and you are NOT, it is a really humbling thing. And a blessing on top of it, for people who think they have to control everything or it will all come tumbling down.
-
1
- Show all
I never said that people elect themselves. It is my take that the Father elected Jesus to be the savior of the world. He is the elect and the chosen one. We are simply chosen in Him when we respond out of our own free will to join the Lord in His victory over sin and death.
Ephesians 1:4 (NASB95)
4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Biblical proof: Ps 89:3, Isa 42:1, 43:10, 49:7, Mat. 12:18, Lk 9:35, 23:35.
If you believe God elected us to be saved, then the result is that He is mean, ugly, hateful and untrustworthy because only a hateful deity would create people with the only object of sending them to hell forever just because...
I want nothing to with your deity (god in small caps) because it is man-made
Ephesians 1:4 (NASB95)
4 "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him."
Biblical proof: Ps 89:3, Isa 42:1, 43:10, 49:7, Mat. 12:18, Lk 9:35, 23:35.
If you believe God elected us to be saved, then the result is that He is mean, ugly, hateful and untrustworthy because only a hateful deity would create people with the only object of sending them to hell forever just because...
I want nothing to with your deity (god in small caps) because it is man-made
Attachments
-
3
- Show all
Chose Jacob, yes, but not for salvation but for the seed line. It Could have been only one of those boys. Again, elect is never used in terms of salvation.
Jesus Christ is God’s elect.
Israel is God’s elect nation.
There are elect angels.
There are the 144,000 elect servants during the tribulation.
Jesus Christ is God’s elect.
Israel is God’s elect nation.
There are elect angels.
There are the 144,000 elect servants during the tribulation.
-
2
- Show all
I can see where you had your issues in that beginning.
Jesus made it very simple after suffering a very difficult journey to end up where he was born to belong; on the cross.
All that is required is to hear of that sacrifice, which is part of the Good News of Salvation , since Jesus died taking the sins of the world upon himself there, and believe.
That's it.
And once one believes, they can be Baptized and with the indwelling Holy Spirit work out their living with the Spirit of God leading the way. And that process there is learning to let go and let ones self to trust God's design in one's unique personal life as the life long process of sanctification takes place day after day until there are no more days.
Where Calvinism fails, in my view, in the first part of its processing scriptures so as to create a doctrine labeled, "Calvinism", is when it is unable to consolidate cause.
The cause of Christ was to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. That whosoever believes in Him, that last sacrifice, that legendary and final "scapegoat" and why and for what reason He died, then conquered death, shall be saved from it.
When Christ was born to take the sins of the world, it is inconsistent to then argue He did that to save only those preselected , the foreknown, so that they only would then be saved. Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself but only to save a select number of persons alive in the world?
And this is where Calvinism and RT brings insult to the divinity of God, in my view.
All that doctrinal presupposition concerning God's motives for creating what those doctrines define within themselves as the "elect of God", exist because, for those to be consistent and in context of that doctrines definition of salvation , it would mean God fully intended "in the beginning" to set the damnation exemplar into motion.
And that is why He in His Omniscience did plant the forbidden tree and did let His adversary to enter in. When we learned in the book of Job that that enemy of God cannot do anything if not let to do so by his Creator.
Because, if God foreknew whom He would save before the world was created, that means God would have to preordain that which those elect would need to be saved from.
And per the TULIP formula that carries across the RT doctrinal landscape, that God unconditionally elects those who's name He foreknew to be in His grace, precludes grace by definition, from being a factor for all at all.
Because courteous goodwill, the definition of grace, would not prepare man's damnation after making a list of names the preparer would save from the condition of His own will's making, sin and damnation, and then cause to hold faith in Him those he predestined to save from that. When what it is that is saving select people from is their Creators own premeditated damnation model set into place for the world's people before there was created a world or people.
That all makes God not Savior, but rather something to be saved from.
That God created humans in His image and likeness, to argue God is sovereign, and then argue that humans are but malleable clay vessels devoid of their own capacity to exercise their thoughts and will freely, is inconsistent with divine intervention in the fallen human condition.
When it is all God that means even damnation is all God. Which is precisely the message of the RT doctrines definition of its "elect". For those elect to exist according to God's predetermination so too is God then responsible for predetermining those born to die damned.
That then negates the omni=benevolent characteristic of God, and makes the Devil not that hungry lion seeking souls to devour, but rather makes him just another cog in the wheel of predestination wherein God is the sole actor at the controls. And everything else are just props.
And make no mistake, I am not here to try to argue any RT or Calvinist out of their beliefs. Rather, the more this issue is discussed, the more I put myself in the shoes of one who would adapt the RT/TULIP principle to my own life, thinking on it, trying it on sort of speak in that way while these debates run on for pages. And I have to say, if I really did believe that God was what John Calvin said, and what RT defines through TULIP, I believe I would be better off turning Agnostic. And hoping if there was a higher power it would have the common decency to love its creation more than what RT tells me it does, while calling itself holy.
Jesus made it very simple after suffering a very difficult journey to end up where he was born to belong; on the cross.
All that is required is to hear of that sacrifice, which is part of the Good News of Salvation , since Jesus died taking the sins of the world upon himself there, and believe.
That's it.
And once one believes, they can be Baptized and with the indwelling Holy Spirit work out their living with the Spirit of God leading the way. And that process there is learning to let go and let ones self to trust God's design in one's unique personal life as the life long process of sanctification takes place day after day until there are no more days.
Where Calvinism fails, in my view, in the first part of its processing scriptures so as to create a doctrine labeled, "Calvinism", is when it is unable to consolidate cause.
The cause of Christ was to take the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross. That whosoever believes in Him, that last sacrifice, that legendary and final "scapegoat" and why and for what reason He died, then conquered death, shall be saved from it.
When Christ was born to take the sins of the world, it is inconsistent to then argue He did that to save only those preselected , the foreknown, so that they only would then be saved. Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself but only to save a select number of persons alive in the world?
And this is where Calvinism and RT brings insult to the divinity of God, in my view.
All that doctrinal presupposition concerning God's motives for creating what those doctrines define within themselves as the "elect of God", exist because, for those to be consistent and in context of that doctrines definition of salvation , it would mean God fully intended "in the beginning" to set the damnation exemplar into motion.
And that is why He in His Omniscience did plant the forbidden tree and did let His adversary to enter in. When we learned in the book of Job that that enemy of God cannot do anything if not let to do so by his Creator.
Because, if God foreknew whom He would save before the world was created, that means God would have to preordain that which those elect would need to be saved from.
And per the TULIP formula that carries across the RT doctrinal landscape, that God unconditionally elects those who's name He foreknew to be in His grace, precludes grace by definition, from being a factor for all at all.
Because courteous goodwill, the definition of grace, would not prepare man's damnation after making a list of names the preparer would save from the condition of His own will's making, sin and damnation, and then cause to hold faith in Him those he predestined to save from that. When what it is that is saving select people from is their Creators own premeditated damnation model set into place for the world's people before there was created a world or people.
That all makes God not Savior, but rather something to be saved from.
That God created humans in His image and likeness, to argue God is sovereign, and then argue that humans are but malleable clay vessels devoid of their own capacity to exercise their thoughts and will freely, is inconsistent with divine intervention in the fallen human condition.
When it is all God that means even damnation is all God. Which is precisely the message of the RT doctrines definition of its "elect". For those elect to exist according to God's predetermination so too is God then responsible for predetermining those born to die damned.
That then negates the omni=benevolent characteristic of God, and makes the Devil not that hungry lion seeking souls to devour, but rather makes him just another cog in the wheel of predestination wherein God is the sole actor at the controls. And everything else are just props.
And make no mistake, I am not here to try to argue any RT or Calvinist out of their beliefs. Rather, the more this issue is discussed, the more I put myself in the shoes of one who would adapt the RT/TULIP principle to my own life, thinking on it, trying it on sort of speak in that way while these debates run on for pages. And I have to say, if I really did believe that God was what John Calvin said, and what RT defines through TULIP, I believe I would be better off turning Agnostic. And hoping if there was a higher power it would have the common decency to love its creation more than what RT tells me it does, while calling itself holy.
-
1
- Show all
God knew but God did not intervene to prevent Adam from choosing sin. Was it Gods will that Adam should sin? If so how is Adam responsible for his sin?
{quote]Agreed.[/quote] Great scripture is very clear on the matter.
Man is always resisting the will of God. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem how oft would I have gathered you as a chick gathers her chicks but you would not. Light is come into the world and men loved darkness. John3:18-21 Men resist the will of God. Some respond but not all. Men must respond because they are responsible for their sins not God. James says that God does not tempt men to sin.
God presented a sin offering to Cain and he flatly rejected Gods offer. Jesus said that even evil men could do good things. Man cannot save himself but there is sufficient Light in every man given by God for them to choose between righteousness and eternal condemnation. God offers the gift but men must choose to accept it. That is what working out your salvation with fear and trembling is teaching. As we study and learn of what great salvation we have received so that we might glorify God.
Study scripture through Jesus and not the lens of Calvinism. Great rejoicing is to be had as we dwell upon the great mercy and grace of God made ours through Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
{quote]Agreed.[/quote] Great scripture is very clear on the matter.
Man is always resisting the will of God. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem how oft would I have gathered you as a chick gathers her chicks but you would not. Light is come into the world and men loved darkness. John3:18-21 Men resist the will of God. Some respond but not all. Men must respond because they are responsible for their sins not God. James says that God does not tempt men to sin.
God presented a sin offering to Cain and he flatly rejected Gods offer. Jesus said that even evil men could do good things. Man cannot save himself but there is sufficient Light in every man given by God for them to choose between righteousness and eternal condemnation. God offers the gift but men must choose to accept it. That is what working out your salvation with fear and trembling is teaching. As we study and learn of what great salvation we have received so that we might glorify God.
Study scripture through Jesus and not the lens of Calvinism. Great rejoicing is to be had as we dwell upon the great mercy and grace of God made ours through Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger