WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 20, 2019

That is flat out wrong my friend. I can be won over via the scriptures. I didn't go from believing in free will to a Calvinist by being obstinate.

I want to believe this, but I can not find any scriptures that teach this. Again, show me. That's at least THRICE I have asked you to provide evidence. For it to be widely accepted, it has to be there, right? Now, show me where. Thank you my friend.

Guojing · Oct 20, 2019

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Actually its not widely accepted. I find more Christians believing that they will be going thru the Tribulation, than those who believe in pre-trib rapture.

So no, pre-trib rapture is harder to accept for the body of christ. Those who accept that tend to be dispensationalist in their thinking, and we know that is not very popular around this board.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 20, 2019

Guojing said:

Thank you for the kind words but you've still not provided proof for the pre-trib rapture. Please post some verses that advocate this. Thanks again my friend.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes · Oct 20, 2019

Guojing said:

Around here where I live it seems to be gaining a lot of traction these last few years.

tanakh · Oct 20, 2019

Melach said:

Yes go to Blogs at the foot of the Forums list and click on page 2. The thread is called roots of Revelation part 1. I have purposely
left no personal interpretation because I wanted people to rely completely on the verses listed. I do intend to make one concession
in future by copying out a few of the texts listed but not all of them otherwise I may as well write the whole Bible!!

calibob · Oct 20, 2019

tanakh said:

It's difficult not to insert personal observations or individual beliefs when dealing with texts that are written in metaphorical or allegorical form. "Let he who has ears, let him hear," dosn't make a sound on paper.

Ahwatukee · Oct 20, 2019

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

All of the promises written within each letter to the seven churches, are to applied to every believer of every church. They are not only to be adhered to by the church that it was addressed to. To be clear, all of rebukes to a specific church are directed to every believer throughout the entire church period. Likewise, every commendation is to every believer who is doing the same. Therefore, though the promise to keep us out of the "hour of trial" was written to the church of Philadelphia, it is a promise to every believer who is also keeping the perseverance of His word. As another example, the rebuke "you have left your first love" found in the letter to the church of Ephesus, is not only to them, but is a warning to any believer who has left Jesus as their first love, throughout the entire church period.

Since that hour of trial, that time of unequaled tribulation has not yet taken place, then the promise to keep us out of that hour of trial is to those believers would be alive prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which hasn't taken place yet. Obviously, since that time of wrath has not yet come, then the Lord's promise of keeping believers out of that hour of trial is yet future.

All of the commendations and rebukes found in the letters to the seven churches are to be applied to every believer, throughout the entire church period, except for those which are specific to those churches of that time.

Remember, "about to come upon the whole world" does not have a time stamp on it, but is directly linked with the God's unprecedented time of wrath where the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be poured out upon the entire world, as well as the plagues from the two witnesses. That said, this cannot be applied to the original church of Philadelphia because they have long died and God's wrath has not yet taken place. Remember, this will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen and from which mankind will not recover from. This will be for the dismantling of human government to make way for the Lord's millennial kingdom. Though the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was a terrible event, it pales in comparison to the wrath that is coming, which will decimate the majority of earths population and dismantle all human government. That said, anything that may have befallen the church of Philadelphia in no way matches the coming wrath that Jesus spoke of.

I also agree with the above. But prior to that 1000 year kingdom, the church must first be gathered, followed by the emergence of the antichrist and God's wrath which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements, with the 1st seal rider on the white horse representing the antichrist. Then the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and the church with Him.

Ahwatukee · Oct 20, 2019

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Not to hijack the thread, but I want to ask you this. During the tribulation are any ppl saved?

In answer to your question, yes, there will be people saved during the tribulation period, but not by animal sacrifice, but by keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

In Revelation 7:9-17 we are introduced to a great company of white-robed saints which no man can number, from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them all Gentiles. Later on in the same context, the elder identifies them as those who come out of the great tribulation. These are all of those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign. Scripture goes on to say regarding them, that they will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death while keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

I agree with you in that, no one will be, nor ever has been saved by animal sacrifices, even though they were required by the law. The reason that Israel is going to begin sacrificing again will be in fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy 'sevens" (seventy seven year periods or 490 years) that was decreed upon them and Jerusalem found in Daniel 9:24-27.

* Seven 'sevens' were fulfilled from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

* Sixty two 'sevens' followed the seven 'sevens' at the end of which the Messiah was cut off (Christ crucified).

At the end of the seven 'sevens' and sixty two 'sevens," fulfilling sixty-nine of the seventy seven year periods, the Lord paused the last seven years and began to build His church which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend and call us up to meet Him in the air just prior to the commencement of God's wrath. Once the church has been removed, God will take up right where He left off with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, complete with a temple and sacrifices.

The woman of Revelation 12 clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, is figuratively representing Israel. We know this because, Genesis 37:9-10 uses the same exact symbols of the sun, moon and stars which represents Israel:

Sun = Jacob
Moon = Wife(s)
Eleven Stars = Jacob's eleven sons, with Joseph being the twelfth star

That said, Israel is the woman of chapter 12. The war in heaven is the result of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe, which takes place in the middle of the seven years. This is the same time in which the abomination will be set up in the holy place within the future temple and which will cause the desolation of Jerusalem and Judea, also mentioned in Matt.24:15-22. It is at this time when Israel will be cared for out in the desert for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that last seven year period. Sometime during that last 3 1/2 years, unbelieving Israel will say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" and will be saved by their faith in Jesus.

Blessings in Christ!

calibob · Oct 20, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

Paul Crouch of Trinity Broadcasting Network used to teach that the Church would be gathered via Satellite TV. Before the internet was made available to the public. In nations where public Christian worship can get us beheaded many now have turned to TV or sites like this to receive and spread the word. That's why I support Christian Chat we touch the lives of people without ever knowing who where or when.

Ahwatukee · Oct 20, 2019

calibob said:

Good day calibob!

In the book of Revelation, it states the following:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness." (Interlinear)

"The things to take place" are the plagues of God's wrath which is will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is what the majority of Revelation is covering from chapter 6 thru 18. While it is true that all of the wicked who survive God's wrath will be killed by the Lord when He returns to the earth, this is not the only wrath, but is the culmination of it. It is the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which will take place prior to Christ's return on the earth to end the age, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring which will fulfill God's wrath.

Forgive me, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "will be taken with the newly resected at the 7th trumpet" is referring to. I do agree that nuclear weapons will be used, as I believe that this is how the beast and the ten kings are going to destroy the city of Babylon the great "burning her with fire." And which is why no one will ever be able to inhabit her again. We also have the following prophecy from Isaiah regarding the last days which seems to be alluding to the results of a nuclear bomb:

"Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame."

Blessings!

DeighAnn · Oct 20, 2019

I am just writing this out without any checking so you best go check to make sure it is all correct, just in case I made a mistake

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Doesn't appear He is coming to gather and go get married but to take vengeance

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:10 When He shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power
2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
God is going to tell us exactly what His plan is
2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
As in the first letter to the Thessalonians that was already being twisted

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Any questions? So in summary "Jesus will not be coming to gather us to Him UNTIL AFTER SATAN IS SITTING IN GODS TEMPLE AND SHOWING THE WORLD HE IS GOD" So simple really.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
This is what he had told them when he was there

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
It can't be till after Satan is here that He, Jesus can return

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The deceiver and deception are already working, Jesus will be returning to cast him into the pit

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The two witnesses will have laid in the streets 3 1/2 days, and when the Lord returns, they will rise, and at that last trump, the brightness of Christ will open the eyes of all who have been deceived by the darkness

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
To make sure no one missed it the first time, here is a 2nd witness, JESUS COMES AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN, who has deceived the world because of all the power and might of his lies and deception.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And those who did not put on the whole gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan.....have taken his mark by not knowing what was coming, not knowing Gods Plan for the end times, not watching, not knowing the first one taken is taken by the Anti Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
And TODAY, they are refusing to put it on because??? it is old?? it does not "apply" to them, "they have been saved, and don't want to proceed past the "milk" of the word"," they don't know they are lively stones", "they have been caught up in the traditions of man",

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But if they die before Satan arrives, they will be fine, but for those of "and the first shall be last and the last will be first" they best be putting on the full gospel armor or they will be deceived. For God had to shorten the time Satan was to be here or else even Gods elect would be deceived, SATAN IS THAT GOOD. Get it right in your mind. Even when the angel was contending with Satan over the bones of Moses, did not argue, but rebuked.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Sanctification, no one really brings it up that much but it is very important to one of Gods elect, which some here are as we are in the generation of the fig tree, the last generation. 1948 when Israel became a nation once again.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
STAND FAST, be a watchman, get ready to overcome. God makes a lot of promises to those who overcome

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
And your works do follow you. Many try to take away the importance of good works for God, stealing from Him the work that needs to be done to make His enemies His footstool.

DeighAnn · Oct 20, 2019

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men for all men have not faith.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
How does the Lord keep us from all evil? I always think of the fiery furnance in which they didn't even smell of smoke and Jesus was right there with them the whole time
2 Thessalonians 3:4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.
This is done by your own effort
2 Thessalonians 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
Not the first white horse that comes with the fabric bow
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

2 Thessalonians 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

2 Thessalonians 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
You choose to follow, you take those steps
2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Now here is a truth
2 Thessalonians 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

2 Thessalonians 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

2 Thessalonians 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
Work, Work, Work
2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

2 Thessalonians 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

2 Thessalonians 3:16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

2 Thessalonians 3:17 The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

2 Thessalonians 3:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

calibob · Oct 20, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

I believe that the resurrection and the rapture will occur when the Seventh trumpet is sounded and that the New Babylon is the Nation that rides atop (comes into Jerusalem with) the Beast. The Beast is not only possessed by Lucifer but he will be a leader within the world banking system and will replace currency with his mark. It will be similar in many ways to an ATM card and he will rule from Jerusalem. I strongly suspect the Great prostitute is the USA because we have legalized nearly every abomination on earth from Astrology to Satanism, Abortion and Homosexuality is accepted as normal and constitutionally protected while the 10 commandments have been removed from our courtrooms. Evolution is taught in public schools while creation is not.

Where is Islam getting their money? OPEC. Where is it comming from? USA.

We also have the following prophecy from Isaiah regarding the last days which seems to be alluding to the results of a nuclear bomb: YES! Isaiah is in my daily study.

Absolutely · Oct 20, 2019

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Note the rapture in rev 14 and ask yourself if you have looked in depth into the several raptures in the bible.
Jesus said "pray that you are worthy to escape the things about to come upon the earth...."

Not only was Jesus "escapism" but he himself escaped as a child when Herod ordered his wrath .
Jesus framed his return "coming" alongside Lot and Noah. BOTH Prewrath/pretrib dynamics.So we see there can not POSSIBLY be a single appearance of Jesus in the sky. Rev 14 has him appearing in the sky DURING THE GT.

I already pointed out mat 25,mat 24,rev 14, the "escape" verse....and how do you think the bride in rev 19 got to heaven and finds herself returning with Jesus?

Put it to you this way,are you waiting for Jesus?
If you are ANYTHING but pretrib rapture adherent,those verses that end the bible are abstract,because you do not believe he is coming......but are looking to ,and expecting the antichrist on a white horse. That alone makes me want to watch. and pray with heaven "come Lord Jesus"......and mean it.

DeighAnn · Oct 20, 2019

Tribulation

Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 7:10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house.
Acts 7:11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance.
Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer

1 Corinthians 7:28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.

2 Corinthians 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2 Corinthians 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2 Corinthians 2:4 For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2 Corinthians 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
2 Corinthians 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
2 Corinthians 8:2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
2 Corinthians 8:13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

Ephesians 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory

Philipians 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel
Philipians 4:14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

1Thessalonians 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

1Thessalonians 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

1Thessalonians 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

1Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
1Thessalonians 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1Thessalonians 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:

2Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

calibob · Oct 20, 2019

calibob said:

After that it get worse. A couple 'H' bombs in the Yellowstone Valley Caldera would make a dandy lake of fire. Smoke and ash would blot out the sun and radiation would cause boils and ulcers. I will keep getting worse.

Nehemiah6 · Oct 20, 2019

calibob said:

The seventh trumpet has nothing to do with the Resurrection/Rapture. It is for announcing the ultimate wrath of God on the unbelieving and the ungodly.

The Trump of God (called the Last Trump) is to summon God's saints to Heaven. Which is totally different and must precede the outpouring of wrath. Just as Noah entered the Ark BEFORE the Flood, the saints enter Heaven BEFORE the wrath of God comes upon the earth.

Absolutely · Oct 20, 2019

Sackcloth-N-Ashes said:

Ok,just ignore the pretrib verses.
Make it fit in your mind that Lot was taken out of sodom AFTER the destruction,and Noah left the earth after the flood, and the ac does not kill believers refusing the mark,and that those of rev 19 are not the bride,that the one taken in mat 24 are not believers,and that there is a war going on around the 10 virgins (instead of normal life as depicted in the bible)

Then say to yourself that Jesus was mistaken when he said there would be normal life on the planet(buying,selling ,marrying) when he comes. ..as was the case with noah. there was no horrible destruction before noah entered the ark. (ARK ...is a type of heaven),or any desruction/judgement around lot before his being removed.

Iow,you have to make THE ENTIRE SCENARIO turn topsey turvey to make ANYTHING but pretrib rapture fit.

The billboard from heaven is the last supper,mat 24,25, and rev 19 the bride in heaven. (ask yourself why the bride dimension is missing in the post trib rapture teaching)

then the harvest. 3 or 4 part.
then rev 14 (a harvest during the gt.)

But we can test fit . We can do that.

in the end......only pretrib rapture has the harmony to agree with the last parting words Jesus left us in the bible " the spirit and the bride say come...."

Absolutely · Oct 20, 2019

Guojing said:

calibob said:

rev 14 has a rapture with no trumpet.

DeighAnn · Oct 20, 2019

Put it to you this way,are you waiting for Jesus?
If you are ANYTHING but pretrib rapture adherent,those verses that end the bible are abstract,because you do not believe he is coming......but are looking to ,and expecting the antichrist on a white horse. That alone makes me want to watch. and pray with heaven "come Lord Jesus"......and mean it.[/QUOTE]

There are 2 Advents, He has been here once.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

But this is what HE DIDN'T READ
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

There is nothing here about the "Him coming to "rapsure" the church.

When they came to the tomb, how did the angels say He would come back?
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Both times He is returning 1 more time. If He "comes and takes His bride" does He never return again?

WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

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