WHEN IS THE RAPTURE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE GT?

[DeighAnn]

If Jesus comes for His Bride pre trib, what happens to all these people???

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Absolutely]

Thank you for the kind words but you've still not provided proof for the pre-trib rapture. Please post some verses that advocate this. Thanks again my friend.

Take the pretrib rapture verses one at a time.
Start with mat 24,or 25, or 1 thes 4.

 

[Absolutely]

Put it to you this way,are you waiting for Jesus?
If you are ANYTHING but pretrib rapture adherent,those verses that end the bible are abstract,because you do not believe he is coming......but are looking to ,and expecting the antichrist on a white horse. That alone makes me want to watch. and pray with heaven "come Lord Jesus"......and mean it.

There are 2 Advents, He has been here once.
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luke 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luke 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

But this is what HE DIDN'T READ
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

There is nothing here about the "Him coming to "rapsure" the church.

When they came to the tomb, how did the angels say He would come back?
Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Both times He is returning 1 more time. If He "comes and takes His bride" does He never return again?

[/QUOTE]
rev 14

We see a rapture during the gt.

 

[Absolutely]

If Jesus comes for His Bride pre trib, what happens to all these people???

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Revelation 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Revelation 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Revelation 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Revelation 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Did you notice you posted this verse?
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Absolutely]

REV 14 is a game changer.

Hidden

game changer

 

[DeighAnn]

Did you notice you posted this verse?
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Yes, I did. I have been putting on the full gospel armor. I will withstand the fiery darts of Satan. I know he is coming, I know he is coming first and I will not be tempted by him.
I am not sure how it came about, but someone has convinced you that Satans Tribulation will be an "awful" time for those in the "world" But that can't be can it? What does Satan want? TO BE WORSHIPPED AS GOD. Can he come murdering flesh bodies left and right and be thought of as God. It is when you hear "peace and safety".
Satan is coming to DECEIVE. He wants to turn your SOUL from God. He knows he is already condemened. He wants to take as many as he can with him. He is coming to DECEIVED THE WHOLE WORLD. It is a "spiritual" war. Satan is bringing " Peace and prosperity". He comes to fix the "deadly wound". He puts into place "his people". He will sit claiming to be God. Taking the "mark" will be not realizing who he really is. He will be performing miracles, the likes this world has never seen. To be a part of his system you will be taking his mark. But it is a system that feels great to the flesh man. Why do you think a mother or father would betray a sister or brother? Because they love that person and can't understand why that person doesn't believe it is Christ returned and the other one is positive (deceived). Remember when Satan was tempting Jesus? What was he trying to buy him with? I will give you.....if you only worship me?

Sure, Gods elect will be delivered up to Satan (death) for their 10 day trial, allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through them, turning the 144,000 back to God, but don't worry about them, they are ready and willing.

It isn't Satans trib to worry about, it is the Wrath that comes when Jesus returns for all those who have been deceived. One way God puts it to be clearly understood is "woe to those who are with child and give suck" , example, your husband goes off traveling for a year. When he returns you have a 5 month old baby giving suck. Is that his baby? NO WAY. You have been UNFAITHFUL. You have left your first love and gone after another. God likens adultery to idolatry. Another clue, the 1st one is taken the other left. Who is it that "takes"? God doesn't take, God gives. Satan takes.

I hope these help you to start a deep study and to put on the full gospel armor. You wont be tempted either. Always remember Daniel in the Lions Den, and Shadrach Meshach and Abednego.

 

[calibob]

We must stay prepared regardless of when he comes. Because if we aren't, we may be surprised. And if he does not come when we expect him we must not give the faith, hope and love. He said he didn't know himself only the Father knows. We must become a nation without any human ruler borders or races. Sepperated from the world by circumcision of the heart without malice, greed or racism whos only ambition is to Love and serve the Lord and share the gospel of peace in peace. When the Lord comes he will bring his sword. He must become our lord and master. No king, dictator, president, Pope, Iatola or Guru will do.

 

[calibob]

REV 14 is a game changer.

Hidden

game changer

Yes The events that will come in Rev 14 come after the Beast in 13.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, I did. I have been putting on the full gospel armor. I will withstand the fiery darts of Satan. I know he is coming, I know he is coming first and I will not be tempted by him.
I am not sure how it came about, but someone has convinced you that Satans Tribulation will be an "awful" time for those in the "world" But that can't be can it? What does Satan want? TO BE WORSHIPPED AS GOD. Can he come murdering flesh bodies left and right and be thought of as God. It is when you hear "peace and safety".
Satan is coming to DECEIVE. He wants to turn your SOUL from God. He knows he is already condemened. He wants to take as many as he can with him. He is coming to DECEIVED THE WHOLE WORLD. It is a "spiritual" war. Satan is bringing " Peace and prosperity". He comes to fix the "deadly wound". He puts into place "his people". He will sit claiming to be God. Taking the "mark" will be not realizing who he really is. He will be performing miracles, the likes this world has never seen. To be a part of his system you will be taking his mark. But it is a system that feels great to the flesh man. Why do you think a mother or father would betray a sister or brother? Because they love that person and can't understand why that person doesn't believe it is Christ returned and the other one is positive (deceived). Remember when Satan was tempting Jesus? What was he trying to buy him with? I will give you.....if you only worship me?

Sure, Gods elect will be delivered up to Satan (death) for their 10 day trial, allowing the Holy Spirit to speak through them, turning the 144,000 back to God, but don't worry about them, they are ready and willing.

It isn't Satans trib to worry about, it is the Wrath that comes when Jesus returns for all those who have been deceived. One way God puts it to be clearly understood is "woe to those who are with child and give suck" , example, your husband goes off traveling for a year. When he returns you have a 5 month old baby giving suck. Is that his baby? NO WAY. You have been UNFAITHFUL. You have left your first love and gone after another. God likens adultery to idolatry. Another clue, the 1st one is taken the other left. Who is it that "takes"? God doesn't take, God gives. Satan takes.

I hope these help you to start a deep study and to put on the full gospel armor. You wont be tempted either. Always remember Daniel in the Lions Den, and Shadrach Meshach and Abednego.

I can easily defend the pretrib rapture and don't have to incorporate all the paranoia as you choose to do.
Post a post trib verse if you can find one.
I have the weight of the bible on my side

 

[calibob]

We must stay prepared regardless of when he comes. Because if we aren't, we may be surprised. And if he does not come when we expect him we must not give UP the faith, hope and love. He said he didn't know himself only the Father knows. We must become a nation without any human ruler borders or races. Sepperated from the world by circumcision of the heart without malice, greed or racism whos only ambition is to Love and serve the Lord and share the gospel of peace in peace. When the Lord comes he will bring his sword. He must become our lord and master. No king, dictator, president, Pope, Iatola or Guru will do.

OOooops, Edit in blue.

 

[calibob]

I can easily defend the pretrib rapture and don't have to incorporate all the paranoia as you choose to do.
Post a post trib verse if you can find one.
I have the weight of the bible on my side

I can and have posted many mid trib. Verses. What's there to be paranoid about? Can you name anyone in the Bible, besides Enoch and Elijah that didn't die? No big deal. If I get out of this world alive I'll be delightfully surprised!

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe that the resurrection and the rapture will occur when the Seventh trumpet is sounded and that the New Babylon is the Nation that rides atop (comes into Jerusalem with) the Beast.

The problem with the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up when the seventh trumpet is sounded is that, it would put the living church through 2/3's of God's wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

This idea of the seventh trumpet as being the "last trumpet" mentioned by Paul as when the resurrection takes place, is because people have pigeonholed the word "trumpet" so that the seventh trumpet becomes the last trumpet. However, like the seals and bowl judgments, the trumpets are plagues of wrath and not a blessed event. No where in the context of the trumpet judgments is there anything that describes the dead and living in Christ being caught up. The harvest which takes place in Rev.14, is not the rapturing of the church. For again, that would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. A good rule of thumb is that, any interpretation of the church being gathered that puts it in the time of God's wrath must be rejected. The church simply cannot be on the earth during God's wrath.

The Beast is not only possessed by Lucifer but he will be a leader within the world banking system and will replace currency with his mark.

The beast is another fallen angel who is currently restricted in the Abyss and will be released at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. He is that angel of the Abyss who is also the king of those demonic locusts - Rev.9:11.

The antichrist will be a man. He will establish that seven year agreement with Israel. At the sounding of the 5th trumpet he will come out and will possess or be the power behind the antichrist. That said, the antichrist will be a man who will eventually be empowered by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss.

Antichrist/Beast = Here is a call for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and that number is 666.

Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

So, the antichrist will be a man, where the beast is an angel of the Abyss and will come up and will posses or be the power behind the antichrist who is a man. The man who will play the part of the antichrist is most likely already out and about in the world. But the beast who is that angel is currently in the Abyss and will come up out of the Abyss at sounding of the 5th trumpet and will possess the antichrist.

It will be similar in many ways to an ATM card and he will rule from Jerusalem. I strongly suspect the Great prostitute is the USA because we have legalized nearly every abomination on earth from Astrology to Satanism, Abortion and Homosexuality is accepted as normal and constitutionally protected while the 10 commandments have been removed from our courtrooms. Evolution is taught in public schools while creation is not.

In order to come to a right conclusion of interpretation, we must pay attention to the scriptural clues. In the case of the USA being the Great Prostitute, i.e. Babylon the Great, the scriptures do not support this for the following reasons:

1). And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

First of all, the woman is said to be a city, where the USA is an entire nation. And second, at the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, Rome was that great city that ruled over the kings of the earth. At that time the USA didn't even exist.

2). The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

As the verse above states, woman sits on seven hills. Since we previously saw that the woman is a city, then that city sits on seven hills/mountains, which the USA does not. However, Rome was built on and is famous for her seven hills.

3). They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

As the angel is giving John this information, he says that the seven heads also represent seven kings where five of them had already ruled and gone from John's time frame. King number six was ruling as John was receiving that information and king number seven had not yet come. The eighth king (who belongs to the seven) is that future beast/antichrist. Once again, the USA did not even exist in order to have five kings fall, with one ruling.

The conclusion is that, the USA could not possibly be the prostitue/Babylon the great for the reasons given above.

 

[calibob]

My main point is pre trib means pre. if it happens 1 nanosecond after the trib has begun then it's mid trim or conversely 1 nanosecond before the lord enters the valley of Megiddo it's still mid trib pre means before it begins and post means after it's over.

 

[DeighAnn]

I can easily defend the pretrib rapture and don't have to incorporate all the paranoia as you choose to do.
Post a post trib verse if you can find one.
I have the weight of the bible on my side

Please by all means post a PRE trib one. You would be the first to ever do it. Now make sure that what you post CAN NOT fit into the 2nd Advent because these, CANT be PRE


1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Don't worry about people who have already died
1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Because Jesus died and rose, so have those who have died that we know
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
There is no body in a hole in the ground as some believed would be until the return of Christ. They are in heaven, on one side of the gulf with Abraham, or the other side with the richman
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first
When Jesus descends AT THE TRUMP of God, the 7th trump, the non believers die instantly and go to the other side of the gulf, Because they will not be participating in the 1st ressurection, they will have to wait until the end of the millennium, for the 2nd ressurection.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
We will be changed from our mortal, corruptible, terrestrial bodies into our immortal, incorruptible, spiritual bodies, to BE EVER WITH THE LORD
1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
He is coming to take vengeance

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2 Thessalonians 1:10 When He shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power
2 Thessalonians 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
As in the first letter to the Thessalonians

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
What day shall not come? The day that we are gathered to the Lord, NOT UNTIL THE SON OF PERDITION is revealed, and not a second sooner.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
So in summary "Jesus will not be coming to gather us to Him UNTIL AFTER SATAN IS SITTING IN GODS TEMPLE AND SHOWING THE WORLD HE IS GOD" So simple really.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
This is what he had told them when he was there

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
It can't be till after Satan is here that He, Jesus can return

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The deceiver and deception are already working, Jesus will be returning to cast him into the pit

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The two witnesses will have laid in the streets 3 1/2 days, and when the Lord returns, they will rise, and at that last trump, the brightness of Christ will open the eyes of all who have been deceived by the darkness

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
To make sure no one missed it the first time, here is a 2nd witness, JESUS COMES AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN, who has deceived the world because of all the power and might of his lies and deception.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And those who did not put on the whole gospel armor to withstand the fiery darts of Satan.....have taken his mark by not knowing what was coming, not knowing Gods Plan for the end times, not watching, not knowing the first one taken is taken by the Anti Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
And TODAY, they are refusing to put it on because??? it is old?? it does not "apply" to them, "they have been saved, and don't want to proceed past the "milk" of the word"," they don't know they are lively stones", "they have been caught up in the traditions of man",

2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But if they die before Satan arrives, they will be fine, but for those of "and the first shall be last and the last will be first" they best be putting on the full gospel armor or they will be deceived. For God had to shorten the time Satan was to be here or else even Gods elect would be deceived, SATAN IS THAT GOOD. Get it right in your mind. Even when the angel was contending with Satan over the bones of Moses, did not argue, but rebuked.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Sanctification, no one really brings it up that much but it is very important to one of Gods elect, which some here are as we are in the generation of the fig tree, the last generation. 1948 when Israel became a nation once again.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
STAND FAST, be a watchman, get ready to overcome. God makes a lot of promises to those who overcome

2 Thessalonians 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2 Thessalonians 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
And your works do follow you. Many try to take away the importance of good works for God, stealing from Him the work that needs to be done to make His enemies His footstool.

 

[calibob]

Besides in my translation Paul literally said the 7th trumpet. I think that the Vatican and the EU are combined financially now or soon and John wasn't looking forward but he was transported through time and explained things as he saw them. Washington D.C. also represents the USA and the Vatican no longer has much military power but financially it does. Revelation is an allegory. Peace. I need to eat now.

 

[Ahwatukee]

My main point is pre trib means pre. if it happens 1 nanosecond after the trib has begun then it's mid trim or conversely 1 nanosecond before the lord enters the valley of Megiddo it's still mid trib pre means before it begins and post means after it's over.

The following is where I believe the gathering of the church will take place in the chronological order of Revelation:

In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 to 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and which also represents the entire church period

What must take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what must take place after the church period.

In Revelation 4:1 John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet, which is the same voice that he heard in Revelation 1:10 and which was is identified as being the Lord Jesus. I believe that Rev.4:1 is prophetic allusion to the gathering of the church. In further support of this, the word Ekklesia/church no longer appears in the narrative. In fact, the next time the church is alluded to is figuratively as the bride found in Rev.19:6-8 in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb. The next time we actually see the word Ekklesia/church is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath, the epilog.

It is also interesting to note that, throughout Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, only the word Ekklesia/Church is used 19 times and within those same chapters we never find the words church and Saints used interchangeably. The reason why the word church never appears again after Rev.4:1 is because this is where the church is gathered, which John is figuratively representing.

All that said, we are currently still in the "what is now" part of the program that John was told to write. Once the Lord appears and gathers the church, then the "what must take place later" begins.

 

[calibob]

RIDING ON THE BACK OF THE BEAST SEEM TO ME LIKE GIVING AID AND MAKING PROFIT OFF OF THE ENEMIES GOD, LIKE OPEC AND THE WORLD BANK.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If Jesus comes for His Bride pre trib, what happens to all these people???

All those who have been born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God, or born again are children of God. That is all you need to focus on. And those are the saints of God. The Resurrection/Rapture is only for the saints, therefore the world is excluded from this stupendous event.

From the 1st to the 21st century, those who have passed on and are now in Heaven will be present at the Resurrection, and receive immortal glorified bodies. See 1 Cor 15.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Please by all means post a PRE trib one. You would be the first to ever do it. Now make sure that what you post CAN NOT fit into the 2nd Advent because these, CANT be PRE

There is no body in a hole in the ground as some believed would be until the return of Christ. They are in heaven, on one side of the gulf with Abraham, or the other side with the richman

Hello DeighAnn,

The above is in error, as that would be pretty easy to prove since the police and other agencies have had bodies successfully exhumed even after years of being burried. As far as the event of the rich man and Lazarus, the scripture states that both men physically died and their bodies buried. After that, both of their spirits are found in Hades, conscious and aware, while their bodies were still up on the earth decaying. At the time of the resurrection, the bodies of the dead will be reanimated and their spirits will be reunited with them, immortal and glorified. To make my point clearer, if a believe was to die the day before the resurrection, his body would no longer bein the morgue and that because he would be back in it.

After Jesus resurrected, all of the spirits of the OT saints that were on the comfort side of Hades were taken to heaven, where they wait for the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies. The unfaithful who have been and continue to pour into Hades, will remain there in torment in flame until the great white throne judgment where they will also receive resurrected bodies fit for their punishment in the lake o fire.

[/quote]When Jesus descends AT THE TRUMP of God, the 7th trump ...[/quote]

As I explained in a previous post, the "trumpet of God" and the 7th trumpet have nothing at all to do with each other!

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are how God is going to carry out His wrath. Therefore, the church cannot be on the earth during that time because it would put the living church through 2/3's of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already did.

The seven trumpets are judgements of wrath and not a blessed event. In addition, there is nothing whatsoever in the context that would elude to the resurrection and catching away of the church taking place at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

It is because people have been listening to the false teachings of men who have pigeonholed the word trumpet, making the two trumpets synonymous. The church will be long gone prior to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. In fact, the church will be gathered prior to the opening of the first seal, which initiates God's wrath.

 

[Ahwatukee]

RIDING ON THE BACK OF THE BEAST SEEM TO ME LIKE GIVING AID AND MAKING PROFIT OFF OF THE ENEMIES GOD, LIKE OPEC AND THE WORLD BANK.

John's reference to "a woman sitting on a scarlet beast" is referring to that last day false church system which will be afforded by the emergence of the antichrist.

The reference to the woman being that great city that rules over the kings of the earth and the fact that this city sits on seven hills, are both pointing to Rome and the headquarters of her religious system, the Vatican. This being true, I believe that the Roman Catholicism will absorb all of the false Christian splinter sects forming the last day one-world religious system. That said, I also believe that the second beast, the false prophet, will be one of the future popes, as the head of that one world false religious system. The woman will be using the beast to gain authority over all people. And that by force if need be.

I believe that it was before 1798 that the church in Rome wielded her power over kings and their armies and that for fear of being excommunicated. Complete control over all people is still the goal and desire for the false church in Rome and the emergence of the antichrist is going to give them the power to do so, ergo, the woman who rides the beast. She's going to be in cahoots with the antichrist in order to get that power back.

The church in Rome was responsible for all of the bloodshed in all three inquisitions and will be responsible for the blood shed during the tribulation period. The church of Rome had spies who would identify people as heretics who would be arrested, all of their property confiscated, imprisoned, tortured and many burned alive. That said, it is the goal and desire of the church in Rome to recapture that authority, so that all people belong to Roman Catholicism and are under the authority of the office of the pope.

What better person to play the part of the false prophet, than the leader of the one-world religious system. After all, whatever the pope says the devote will do. That said, it is the false prophet who causes the inhabitants of the earth to make that image in honor of the beast. He's also the one who causes all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive the mark of the beast. And whoever does not receive it will not be able to buy or sell.