Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
calibob

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
#111,861
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,516
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#111,861
What did Diests believe?

What do deists believe?

by Matt Slick
8/18/09
Deists believe in Deism, a position that God, who is without beginning or end, created the world, set it in motion, but is not involved in the world.
Deists like to say that their religion is natural, not revealed. In other words, they derive their beliefs of morality, God, truth, purpose, etc., not through any direct revelation of God, i.e., the Bible, but through observation of nature and their use of reason. This would negate the idea of the Bible being inspired of God and it would certainly deny the incarnation, death, burial, and resurrection of God in the person of Jesus. (co CARM)
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#111,862
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
113
58
#111,862
Noose said:
Thanks but your conclusion has nothing to do with:

Rom 2:5But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.
Click to expand...
You continue to misinterpret this passage of scripture and teach salvation by works. As I have already previously explained to you, if one reads Romans 2:5-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that Paul is not describing how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. The good deeds done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of believers procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (verse 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#111,864
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
113
58
#111,864
Noose said:
Receiving and then what? so many receive but don't make it

Luke 8:
13The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

14The seeds that fell among the thorns are those who hear, but as they go on their way, they are choked by the worries, riches, and pleasures of this life, and their fruit does not mature.

15But the seeds on good soil are those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, cling to it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Click to expand...
The reason these didn't make it is because they did not receive the word on good ground which then would have yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. For the rocky ground hearers and the thorny ground hearer, faith was never firmly rooted and established.

Now even though this rocky ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain why.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a person who is not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and consummated belief that results in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18) but were instead children of the devil.

In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even thought there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching it's desired goal because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. (Mark 4:19). The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#111,865
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#111,865
mailmandan said:
You continue to misinterpret this passage of scripture and teach salvation by works. As I have already previously explained to you, if one reads Romans 2:5-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that Paul is not describing how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. The good deeds done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of believers procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (verse 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of receiving eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).
Click to expand...
I'm not saying works result in salvation but there's a difference between the following sentences:

1.God will repay each one according to his deeds.To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

2. God will repay each one according to his deeds.He has given eternal life to those who will persevere in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality

#2 is not biblical but #1 is, which means God rewards those who persevere to the end by giving them eternal life (in the end). Never will it mean that those that have been awarded eternal life will persevere (#2). No.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#111,866
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#111,866
mailmandan said:
The reason these didn't make it is because they did not receive the word on good ground which then would have yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. For the rocky ground hearers and the thorny ground hearer, faith was never firmly rooted and established.

Now even though this rocky ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain why.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a person who is not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and consummated belief that results in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18) but were instead children of the devil.

In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even thought there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching it's desired goal because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. (Mark 4:19). The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.
Click to expand...
1. Whatever i quoted was already an explanation of a parable by Jesus, so trying to explain further is nothing but a diversion from truth.

2. You asked, "How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"?
Simple. Because they were not called a good ground.

3. The good soil was simply good because of perseverance/ holding fast what they had.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#111,867
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
113
58
#111,867
Noose said:
I'm not saying works result in salvation
Click to expand...
Yes, you basically are saying that and don't even seem to realize it.

1.God will repay each one according to his deeds. To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.
Click to expand...
Which you interpret as receiving eternal life as a reward based on the merits of deeds.

2. God will repay each one according to his deeds. He has given eternal life to those who will persevere in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality
Click to expand...
In other words, eternal life is received only AFTER one perseveres in good deeds - "type 2 works salvation."

#2 is not biblical but #1 is, which means God rewards those who persevere to the end by giving them eternal life (in the end). Never will it mean that those that have been awarded eternal life will persevere (#2). No.
Click to expand...
A reward is something that is earned. Eternal life is a gift and not a reward. (Romans 6:23) You can try and sugar coat it all you want, but you teach "type 2 works salvation."
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#111,868
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
113
58
#111,868
Noose said:
1. Whatever i quoted was already an explanation of a parable by Jesus, so trying to explain further is nothing but a diversion from truth.

2. You asked, "How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"?
Simple. Because they were not called a good ground.

3. The good soil was simply good because of perseverance/ holding fast what they had.
Click to expand...
No, the good soil persevered BECAUSE it was good soil and not to become good soil. You once again have the cart before the horse because you teach "type 2 works salvation." Just deal with it.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#111,869
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#111,869
N

Noose

Senior Member
#111,870
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#111,870
mailmandan said:
Yes, you basically are saying that and don't even seem to realize it.

Which you interpret as receiving eternal life as a reward based on the merits of deeds.

In other words, eternal life is received only AFTER one perseveres in good deeds - "type 2 works salvation."

A reward is something that is earned. Eternal life is a gift and not a reward. (Romans 6:23) You can try and sugar coat it all you want, but you teach "type 2 works salvation."
Click to expand...
Still doesn't change the fact that ".God will repay each one according to his deeds.
1. To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life".
and
2. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

all these will happen when? vs 5....when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

You explanation for this is still not clear. You are talking but not saying anything.

What does repay mean?
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#111,871
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#111,871
mailmandan said:
No, the good soil persevered BECAUSE it was good soil and not to become good soil. You once again have the cart before the horse because you teach "type 2 works salvation." Just deal with it.
Click to expand...
So why was the Lord sowing on bad soil?
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#111,872
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#111,872
Noose said:
Which one of those are promises because the bible keeps referring to God's promises that we should look forward to.

About tenses; let them not destruct you because existence is like a circle with the beginning and the end sharing the same point. For the creator, He declares the end from the beginning, so to Him there's no difference. But you who sojourns the circle, you can do nothing but wait and hope.

When He says, those that He predestined He called, those that He called He justified and those that He justified He glorified.

When you pick 1/2/3 (Predestined/called/justified/sanctified) because of their tenses, why don't you also pick glorified because of its tense. Are you glorified? When one stands victorious in the very end, then all these things will apply.
Click to expand...
That is where you are wrong again.....God inspired the past tense application pal....it is a done deal, but like normal your false religion will not allow you to see the truth....no surprise there!
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
#111,875
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,402
113
#111,875
calibob said:
Was John Calvin a free mason?


It has been proven beyond reasonable doubt that John Calvin was a Freemason who concocted the horrific false doctrine of Calvinism. Calvinism’s god is none other than Lucifer – who thinks he has the ability to send people to hell or Elect others with a one way trip into paradise. (co https://www.discerningtheworld.com/)
Click to expand...
Can we have a verse that states verbatim that Lucifer thinks he can send someone to hell?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#111,877
#111,877
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#111,879
Apr 7, 2014
25,574
13,551
113
58
#111,879
Noose said:
Still doesn't change the fact that ".God will repay each one according to his deeds.
1. To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life".
and
2. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

all these will happen when? vs 5....when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

You explanation for this is still not clear. You are talking but not saying anything.

What does repay mean?
Click to expand...
I already explained this. You seem to think that repay means earn eternal life based on deeds, but are sadly mistaken.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.