forgive us as we forgive others?

[Guojing]

The Lord's prayer that I posted is translation from the original Aramaic.
Original Aramiac with translation

Lords Prayer (English)
Our Father who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done,
On earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
And forgive us our trespasses (debts) as we forgive those who trespass
against us (our debtors).
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us
from evil.
For thine is the Kingdom and the Power and the Glory forever.
Amen.

The point is not where you got the Lord's prayer from.

The point was what "And forgive us our trespasses (debts) as we forgive those who trespass against us (our debtors)" means.

Are you accepting or rejecting what Jesus explained in Matthew 6:14-15? Do you have a different interpretation of that passage?

 

[Guojing]

Although I am a member of, and have taught quite a bit in, the Foursquare denomination, my beliefs differ a bit from their stance on some theology; so perhaps I'm better labeled non-denominational.

I believe Baptism is essential. But it is more than, and not limited to, being baptized in water.
It's too long to post here, but from a teaching I'm currently doing on 1Cor 10, we look into Baptism, from both New and Old Testaments, and how is fits into our Journey; as we walk the Way with the Lord toward the "rest of God."
If you've interested, (it's in essay form, not a video), you can view that portion of the Bible Study I've been teaching in our church, here-
1Corinthians 10 Study (part 5) BAPTISM

Peace & Blessings!

I see, there is a significant group of Christians who either believe in:

1. the necessity of water baptism to get saved, or
2. the necessity immediately after you are saved, otherwise you may not be saved since you are disobeying a direct commandment from the risen Lord, which to me amounts to pretty much the same as the first belief.

Verses like Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 feature heavily in both beliefs.

 

[Heyjude]

Like any father on earth, being forgiven isn't the same thing as getting a life lesson to learn from things we have done wrong. Also, forgiveness for others is only true if we do not lie to ourselves. A lot of people wake up everyday and start lying to themselves.


Some say they have forgiven but are obviously bitter about things still so are double minded. They lie to themselves but God knows the state of the heart. When you have truly forgiven someone you are at a place of belief, faith and understanding which leads to peace. As when you understand someone, you can forgive them.


But we are here on earth to learn so forgiving us our trespasses doesn't mean there isn't a lesson to come. It is sometimes only by looking back at our past mistakes we see all too clearly the “lessons” we learned with the distance of time that led us to grow in truth that puts us on the right (narrow) path. If God is unhappy with us in something, he sure has a way of showing it up so there is no mistake I believe. Sometimes we don't always see these red flags right in front of our face (but funny how we do later on and say "why didn't I see that?) Why indeed.


“For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” (Heb 12.6)

 

[jacob_g]

Paul explained it well in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

God deliberately made it easy for us former Gentiles to be saved, because the Jews kept rejecting God, in order to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

The Jews rejected God the Father in the OT by ignoring or stoning their prophets.
The Jews rejected God the Son in the 4 Gospels by putting him on the cross.
The Jews rejected God the Holy Spirit in Acts by stoning Stephen who was full of the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:55).

With the entire Trinity being rejected by the Jews, the last one to me is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin under the Law of Moses, God finally unveiled his hidden plan to save the Gentiles independent of the Jews, a plan he had kept hidden since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Once you realized this, Ephesians 2 and 3 take on totally new meaning, and you as a former Gentile, will really praise God the Father for his wonderful plan. And you will not be upset that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews in the 4 Gospels.

Have you not read the Bible? Salvation has always been for the Non-Jews too. Look up all the phrases that say and all the foreigners who are with you... the foreigners are non-Jews. Look at Ruth, Rahab, non-Jews in the Messianic genealogy. GOD NEVER REJECTED THE JEWS SO NON-JEWS COULD BE SAVED!!!! Who in their right mind would get upset God spoke to the Jews in the Gospels. And if was only the Jews why not toss them (Gospels) out since, according to you, it is to Jews only.... Non Jews cannot possibly binnifet or get saved....

 

[Guojing]

Have you not read the Bible? Salvation has always been for the Non-Jews too. Look up all the phrases that say and all the foreigners who are with you... the foreigners are non-Jews. Look at Ruth, Rahab, non-Jews in the Messianic genealogy. GOD NEVER REJECTED THE JEWS SO NON-JEWS COULD BE SAVED!!!! Who in their right mind would get upset God spoke to the Jews in the Gospels. And if was only the Jews why not toss them (Gospels) out since, according to you, it is to Jews only.... Non Jews cannot possibly binnifet or get saved....

Ephesians 2 have the answer.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The key is to recognize the difference between the 2 time periods

In time past: Gentiles could only be saved as a Jew, meaning they have to be willing to be circumcised and under the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48). There was no other way a Gentile can be saved.

But now: Both Jews and Gentiles can be saved, by believing in Jesus's death burial and resurrection. Both Jews and Gentiles are equal under the Body of Christ.

 

[jacob_g]

Ephesians 2 have the answer.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The key is to recognize the difference between the 2 time periods

In time past: Gentiles could only be saved as a Jew, meaning they have to be willing to be circumcised and under the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48). There was no other way a Gentile can be saved.

But now: Both Jews and Gentiles can be saved, by believing in Jesus's death burial and resurrection. Both Jews and Gentiles are equal under the Body of Christ.

Thank you! Before it read, to me, because Jews rejected Messiah and all trinity is why non-Jews could get saved. Jews have never been rejected by God What you wrote here is correct. God accepts us both into his kingdom NOT rejecting the former for the latter.... Non-Jews are grafted equally into the vine now!!!! All 66 books even the Gospels are for all peoples.... I "bet" millions have saved by the Gospels (non-Jews)!!!!

I honestly appreciate you responding.

 

[Guojing]

Thank you! Before it read, to me, because Jews rejected Messiah and all trinity is why non-Jews could get saved. Jews have never been rejected by God What you wrote here is correct. God accepts us both into his kingdom NOT rejecting the former for the latter.... Non-Jews are grafted equally into the vine now!!!! All 66 books even the Gospels are for all peoples.... I "bet" millions have saved by the Gospels (non-Jews)!!!!

Paul, in Romans 9-11, explained that God has temporary blinded all the Jews, except for a remnant, so that he can saved Gentiles independent of the Law of Moses.

You are not disagreeing with that right?

 

[jacob_g]

Paul, in Romans 9-11, explained that God has temporary blinded all the Jews, except for a remnant, so that he can saved Gentiles independent of the Law of Moses.

You are not disagreeing with that right?

Correct, except (not to nick pick, but I will...lolo) But even Jews are not saved by the Law of Moses. Only accepting Jesus as Messiah.

This is a big difference than rejected us which so many "christians" believe....

 

[Guojing]

Correct, except (not to nick pick, but I will...lolo) But even Jews are not saved by the Law of Moses. Only accepting Jesus as Messiah.

This is a big difference than rejected us which so many "christians" believe....

Yes, during the 4 gospels, they needed to follow the law of Moses and accept Jesus as their promised messiah, along with being Baptized in water.

It’s much easier for us to be saved now, as what the post you first replied to was saying.

 

[jacob_g]

Yes, during the 4 gospels, they needed to follow the law of Moses and accept Jesus as their promised messiah, along with being Baptized in water

Yes, the gospels prove Jesus is Messiah. No. Show Scripture for that. that they are not for non-Jews. (your previous post... I can find it and quote it... but do not feel like it... you can go back and read). The Jews had to accept Jesus is Messiah and the non-Jews had great faith, like the mother who begged for her daughter and said even the dogs eat the scraps, or the centurion and Jesus said He has never seen such great faith in all of Israel. Non-Jews were counted righteous for accepting Messiah/Jesus. The Gospels are for all sinners Jews and non-Jews alike!!!

 

[Guojing]

Yes, the gospels prove Jesus is Messiah. No. Show Scripture for that. that they are not for non-Jews. The Jews had to accept Jesus is Messiah and the non-Jews had great faith, like the mother who begged for her daughter and said even the dogs eat the scraps, or the centurion and Jesus said He has never seen such great faith in all of Israel. Non-Jews were counted righteous for accepting Messiah/Jesus. The Gospels are for all sinners Jews and non-Jews alike!!!

Jesus himself told the Canaanite woman that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The 2 examples you quote of Gentiles being ministered by Jesus are not good ones for the But now period.

Jesus only granted them the healing they desired, because they blessed the Jews.

The centurion built the Jews a synagogue, and the Canaanite Lady was willing to acknowledge that, as a puppy, she could only eat the crumbs that fell from the Jewish children's bread.

So Jesus granted them the healing is because they were blessing the Jews, Jesus was honoring what God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3 in time past.

But now, under the grace dispensation, we can get blessed independent of the Jews.

 

[jacob_g]

Jesus himself told the Canaanite woman that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The 2 examples you quote of Gentiles being ministered by Jesus are not good ones for the But now period.

Jesus only granted them the healing they desired, because they blessed the Jews.

The centurion built the Jews a synagogue, and the Canaanite Lady was willing to acknowledge that, as a puppy, she could only eat the crumbs that fell from the Jewish children's bread.

So Jesus granted them the healing is because they were blessing the Jews, Jesus was honoring what God told Abraham in Genesis 12:3 in time past.

But now, under the grace dispensation, we can get blessed independent of the Jews.

Ok. You just showed Jesus is for all people.

Let me ask you this in saying the Gospels were written for the Jews and you went on to quote another Book you thought written for the Non-Jews... again see your own quote do not feel like looking it up, copy past... ... ... This is my question do you think some parts of Scripture are only for Jews and some for non-Jews?

 

[Guojing]

Ok. You just showed Jesus is for all people.

Let me ask you this in saying the Gospels were written for the Jews and you went on to quote another Book you thought written for the Non-Jews... again see your own quote do not feel like looking it up, copy past... ... ... This is my question do you think some parts of Scripture are only for Jews and some for non-Jews?

Christians have no problem not inserting themselves in OT books, for example Malachi and Haggai. But we don't tear the OT out of our bibles, it is written for our learning, its just not written to us.

Likewise, think of Matt-John as OT as the rest of the OT. Technically, the new covenant began only after Jesus died on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-18)

 

[jacob_g]

Christians have no problem not inserting themselves in OT books, for example Malachi and Haggai. But we don't tear the OT out of our bibles, it is written for our learning, its just not written to us.

Likewise, think of Matt-John as OT as the rest of the OT. Technically, the new covenant began only after Jesus died on the cross (Hebrews 9:16-18)

That makes no sense whatsoever... Written for your learning but not for you which is it? You sound like Messiah is not for the Jews and they can be "saved" under the OT....
If the OT is not for you how do you the NT is even the Word of God? All the NT writers had and eve Jesus to prove He is Messiah is the OT!

Please show me Scripture where this is for the Jews only and this is for the people grafted in but they do not need to know the graph they were grafted into, it does not apply to them.....

See how silly?

 

[Guojing]

That makes no sense whatsoever... Written for your learning but not for you which is it? You sound like Messiah is not for the Jews and they can be "saved" under the OT....
If the OT is not for you how do you the NT is even the Word of God? All the NT writers had and eve Jesus to prove He is Messiah is the OT!

Please show me Scripture where this is for the Jews only and this is for the people grafted in but they do not need to know the graph they were grafted into, it does not apply to them.....

See how silly?

FOR and TO have different meaning from where I learn my English, I don't know about yours though.

You don't understand OT history? Ever since the Tower of Babel, God chose Abram to form the Jews, a chosen people that he will be their God and they will be his people.

From then on, all the rest of the people, the Gentiles, are technically cut off from God. This was the reality that Paul stated in Ephesians 2,

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

So from Genesis 12 all the way to the time when Paul was raised to be our apostle, God was not speaking to us, at all.

If you consider that as silly, that is your choice.

 

[jacob_g]

FOR and TO have different meaning from where I learn my English, I don't know about yours though.

You don't understand OT history? Ever since the Tower of Babel, God chose Abram to form the Jews, a chosen people that he will be their God and they will be his people.

From then on, all the rest of the people, the Gentiles, are technically cut off from God. This was the reality that Paul stated in Ephesians 2,

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

So from Genesis 12 all the way to the time when Paul was raised to be our apostle, God was not speaking to us, at all.

If you consider that as silly, that is your choice.

I see you do not know the Scripture.... May the Lord bless you, and keep you, and make His face shine upon you and give you His peace.... I pray it will be relieved to you the scarlet thread that runs thru all 66 Books/ Messiah!!!

I have loved talking to you and thank you. Please read Joshua, Hosea, Exodus, Ruth, Danial, Psalm, and so on.... they will teach you about the grafting in of the non-Jew...

 

[Guojing]

I see you do not know the Scripture.... May the Lord bless you, and keep you, and make His face shine upon you and give you His peace.... I pray it will be relieved to you the scarlet thread that runs thru all 66 Books/ Messiah!!!

I have loved talking to you and thank you. Please read Joshua, Hosea, Exodus, Ruth, Danial, Psalm, and so on.... they will teach you about the grafting in of the non-Jew...

I have quoted scripture to back up my points. Maybe you could do the same for yours?

But if you don't want to do so, that is fine too. Cheers

 

[jacob_g]

I have quoted scripture to back up my points. Maybe you could do the same for yours?

But if you don't want to do so, that is fine too. Cheers

I have told you to search the Scripture.... and told you good places to look for God to reveal the truth... Cheers... Mate...

This is the last word but I have a feeling you will have to get it in.....lol....

 

[Locoponydirtman]

As part of the Lord's Prayer we have this in Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

What are your thoughts? What does this mean? What was Jesus trying to say?

Concider this, can one be truly repentant not understanding his own failures? If you understand you own failure and desperate need of a savior can you begrudge someone else their failures?
I propose to that the answer is no. If you look at my profile you see a quote from me which is actually a quote from a song. It goes ," I fought with my reflection, now there is blood, and tears, and broken mirror on the floor".
I thought it a fitting quote because it shows a man who knows the depth of his own failure. This weight of conviction that breaks a man, once forgiven produces mercy. I am not merciful because I am righteous, I am merciful because I know how broken I am, and that if Jesus can have mercy on me then he will have mercy on you. I myself am a chief of sinners and with out this honest judgement of myself I would become self righteous and judgmental of others which puts me far fr God.

 

[PS]

As part of the Lord's Prayer we have this in Matthew 6:12: "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

What are your thoughts? What does this mean? What was Jesus trying to say?

If we are unwilling to forgive our neighbour, then we are are not going to be in fellowship with the Lord who has freely forgiven us. Neither can we expect God's forgiveness.

The law of Jesus has penalties also, but these are of a spiritual nature. You won't be stoned to death if you do not forgive your neighbour, but you may not see the kingdom of God.